32 replies to this topic

[will227457]

I have been playing for about 18mo....currently play to a 14-16hc, My buddy we will call him "Mark" introduced me to the game and got me started playing. I got hooked took lessons practiced/practice a ton. and now regulary beat "Mark" by 10-15 strokes.

"Mark" likes to play for lunch or a couple of bucks to keep it interesting. when I first started playing he beat me pretty consistantly, however in the last 6mo i have turned a corner in my game. needless to say i havent bought lunch for a very long time. last time we played i shot a 89 to his 112, 23 stroke variance. As we were walking to our car i suggested that maybe since he haden't won in so long to keep things interesting that he should take strokes.....i threw out a number 15-20.

"Mark" actually told me that if he couldn't beat me straight up it wasn't really a victory and took offense to the idea that i needed to give him strokes...I dropped the subject went to the club house and let "Mark" buy me a steak.....

So the question is do I keep eating for free? Do I insist he take strokes? We play together about 1-2 times a month.

[sunbeltgolfer]

If your friend wishes to continue without benefit of strokes I'd say don't challenge his reason or pride, just show up hungry.

[Vindog]

I can see both sides to this.

on the one hand the "getting strokes" is a great way for a group of varying skill to get together and play and have fun and compete.

on the other hand, if you're not challenged, you never get better.  When I was bigger into darts I always tried to play guys better than me, always.  They push you to improve.  Whether that's his reasoning or not I don't know.

Either way...you can't force him to take strokes.  But if you feel guilty, get a tuna sandwich instead of a steak a time or two and call it good.

Edited by Vindog, 23 May 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Mschumacher]

My friend does this.  I always offer him a stroke/hole but he won't take it.  We only play for 50cents per hole so its no biggie.

[Thesheal]

Take the lunch. You only play once or twice a month and you offered to give shots.  You've made the reasonable effort to even things up. If he wants to play straight up have at it.

[bigmoneyp]

First of all the time to discuss strokes is before the round, not just after you beat someone.  Secondly, you never let a sucker keep their money.  If your playing partner is fine playing the match at scratch then you should do so.  Of course, this is assuming your friend can afford to lose lunch a few times a month.

[DevilDog]

This isn't a problem with the guys I play with.  We are all within a stroke or two of each other as it is by handicap.  So no strokes offered or taken in our specific case.  In other cases, people should probably take them to compete but some guys think they must improve to compete if they don't take them.

[will227457]

Money is not the issue the sting of losing hurts worse than the sting in the wallet......I think I'll keep getting my steaks, I'll get so fat I won't be able to swing a club

[teejaywhy]

will227457, on 23 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

... last time we played i shot a 89 to his 112, 23 stroke variance.

I keep bringing this up.  What is the deal with the insistence on a medal score comp between two players?

Two words for you:  MATCH PLAY.

Even without strokes he wouild have a chance to win some holes and at least make it somewhat interesting.

[Man In The Miura]

Good for "Mark."  It is refreshing he's not bowing to the welfare state of the handicap system.  I hope he does improve.  Maybe try a different format to make it a little more interesting... Stableford maybe?

[MtlJeff]

I thought of starting this thread recently too. I won't take strokes ever in a match, i don't care if it's against a pro. I just won't play him for a lot of money but i'll go in expecting to lose. I can't imagine there's a worse feeling then taking someone's money who actually beat you at the end of the day. The handicap system if you think about it is horribly un-american. I don't really respect someone who has a handicap 2-3 shots higher then mine and takes strokes in a match for money. I know that some will disagree but that's how i feel. To me the handicap system is for keeping club tournaments open to all members and making it competitive. In a friendly weekend match you shouldn't be happy taking your friends money while taking strokes.

[Vindog]

teejaywhy, on 23 May 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I keep bringing this up.  What is the deal with the insistence on a medal score comp between two players?

Two words for you:  MATCH PLAY.

Even without strokes he wouild have a chance to win some holes and at least make it somewhat interesting.

good idea.  A coworker and I used to do this.  He was considerably better than me.

I'd win my fair share of holes.  Wouldn't beat him very often, but more often than when we played medal.

We'd make it skins sometimes as well.  Then we threw in side games.  "Mark" would be surprised how even he can make it, even with a big gap between you two.

Edited by Vindog, 23 May 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[greycat]

Does he still have something to compete or is better than you at like putting.  Doesn't matter how many to get on the green how many putts it takes to hole out.  You may par/bogey to his 6 but you take 2 and he takes 1 putt.  Challenges you to score lower hitting one putts and pushes him to finish out a hole strong.

[Gbyeball]

teejaywhy, on 23 May 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

will227457, on 23 May 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

... last time we played i shot a 89 to his 112, 23 stroke variance.

I keep bringing this up.  What is the deal with the insistence on a medal score comp between two players?

Two words for you:  MATCH PLAY.

Even without strokes he wouild have a chance to win some holes and at least make it somewhat interesting.

Love match play.............the great equalizer.

A buddie of mine who is an account is always counting his strokes even mid hole. He shoots high 90's and I introduced him to match play just to stop him from being obsessed with his score. He loved it when it dawned on him that blow up holes don't exist. I do give him 18 strokes which is really tough in match play but it allows him to beat me about half the time and challenges me.

Get your friend into match play but beware cause the river of free steaks may dry up.

Oh and congrats on making such fast progess with your golf game.

Edited by Gbyeball, 23 May 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[will227457]

Match play may be the anwser, that way every hole counts, I find my self losing interest when we get to 16 or 17 and I'm 15 strokes up.

I love the competition of golf and I often walk on as a single at my local course I love getting paired with a low capper it elevates my game and I can watch and learn. "Mark" is a social golfer he like to get out doors smoke a cigar and have a couple of drinks, As a consequence he does not work on his game as hard as I do.

I guess we just need to change the format of our play

[bobfoster]

MtlJeff, on 23 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I thought of starting this thread recently too. I won't take strokes ever in a match, i don't care if it's against a pro. I just won't play him for a lot of money but i'll go in expecting to lose. I can't imagine there's a worse feeling then taking someone's money who actually beat you at the end of the day. The handicap system if you think about it is horribly un-american. I don't really respect someone who has a handicap 2-3 shots higher then mine and takes strokes in a match for money. I know that some will disagree but that's how i feel. To me the handicap system is for keeping club tournaments open to all members and making it competitive. In a friendly weekend match you shouldn't be happy taking your friends money while taking strokes.

Actually - I'm totally with you. I'll use my handicap when required to (in charity tourneys and etc.), but playing informally, I never want to take strokes. Feels somehow wrong ... even if I know there's a good chance I'll lose.

But to the OP? As others have said, sounds to me like the Match Play idea is a good one. You may still win most of the time, but the matches would likely be somewhat closer ...

Your friend wouldsn't probably be into it, but I personally really like the Stableford system. In fact, I have a big group of buddies that holds an annual Stableford (we play the Modified Stableford system).

For you and your friend, it might equalize trhings wonderfully. If you are both shooting high 80s and 90s ... that is a certain level of golf ... it means you are fairly consistant in contact, but probably have one or two real "disaster" holes during a round. In stoke play, it just takes a couple of quadruple bogies to wipe any and all pars one makes. Stableford minimizes the impact of the disaster holes ...

Parenthetically ... the vast majority of amateur rounds are played (without even question) as stroke play. This is really too bad ... playing an occasional round as Match Play, or Stableford, gets really interesting. Makes you think completely differently about strategy and course management. Really can expand the way golfers think about the game.

[Onewaggle]

I play in a regular 4 some where there are two "Marks" and the other guy is usually within 4-5 strokes of me.  Awhile back we had the same issue, the new guys were getting frustrated by being down all the time, and the 3rd guy was fine with the stroke play format, but wanted a chance to win more often.  Sow we started playing Wolf, and it has become the great equalizer for us.  I still win my fair share, but it gives the other guys more of a competitive chance.  There are tons of different side games you two can play that might give him a better chance, just investigate them and offer to play one you feel he might have a good shot at.  Match play might be the right format for you guys.  Skins, snakes & bullets, Arnies, greenies, bingo bango bongo, you will find one that works for you guys.  Since you are new to the game, it makes it easy to say "hey I just heard of this game, want to try it?"

But ultimately if he doesn't have the fire to get better, you have no choice but to eat like a king!

[Golfwarrior]

I play with a couple of guys who do the same thing. Its only a buck a skin but they always end up paying and won't take any strokes.

[lchang]

I don't think I understand this.  If I were playing a pro, why would it be fun for either of us without strokes?  (I'm an 8.5.  If I were a +3, ok....)  Especially, if it were a weekly or monthly recurring match.  One of the (many) things I like about golf is that players of very different abilities can compete against each other--and against the course and their personal history at the same time.  

Playing tennis against Pete Sampras will never be interesting for either of us.  One-on-one against LeBron is silly.  Really hard to handicap either of those sports via points, amputation of a limb, or anything else.  I guess bowling works.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression.  Why not avail yourself of the established and widely used handicap system?  What's so American about beating someone clearly less talented, less practiced, and/or less skilled than you are?  Martin Kaymer would take no pride in beating me straight up.  He probably wouldn't beating a teaching pro either.  Let alone an accountant, dentist, or computer programmer.  I wouldn't take any pride in beating a 23 handicapper or a 6-year-old.  It would be more American of me to take money from an overmatched high-handicap senior citizen without strokes?

MtlJeff, on 23 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I thought of starting this thread recently too. I won't take strokes ever in a match, i don't care if it's against a pro. I just won't play him for a lot of money but i'll go in expecting to lose. I can't imagine there's a worse feeling then taking someone's money who actually beat you at the end of the day. The handicap system if you think about it is horribly un-american. I don't really respect someone who has a handicap 2-3 shots higher then mine and takes strokes in a match for money. I know that some will disagree but that's how i feel. To me the handicap system is for keeping club tournaments open to all members and making it competitive. In a friendly weekend match you shouldn't be happy taking your friends money while taking strokes.

[will227457]

I tend to agree with Ichang, part of the fun  of playing together is the competition..... If I cruise to victory by 10-15 strokes sometimes even 20 how much fun is that really? To me it's not about the money I'd like to have to think about every shot. Don't get me wrong I still take the free lunch and ask my buddy which shot he liked best my 25ft putt to save par on 15 or my sand save on 11.......(he takes the ribbing well)

[isaacbm]

I always get into these handicap threads but I've never really looked at it the way Mtljeff has laid it out here.  I'm starting to agree with it more and more.  Why is it so important for everyone to be equal?  Why is a guy that shoots par supposed to be on a level playing field with a guy that plays twice a month and shoot 96?

A good game for me to play against higher handicaps is to set an over/under number.  for example, every shot I shoot under 70 they owe me $10, if I shoot 70,71,72 nobody owes, and if I shoot 73 or over I owe them $10 for each shot.

Then they have to do the same thing for say 80 or what ever.  That way, you're playing against the course and against your own potential.

It makes no sense for me to give a guy 20 shots and then tell people he "beat" me when he shoots 89 and I shoot 71.

[Thrillhouse]

isaacbm, on 24 May 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I always get into these handicap threads but I've never really looked at it the way Mtljeff has laid it out here.  I'm starting to agree with it more and more.  Why is it so important for everyone to be equal?  Why is a guy that shoots par supposed to be on a level playing field with a guy that plays twice a month and shoot 96?

A good game for me to play against higher handicaps is to set an over/under number.  for example, every shot I shoot under 70 they owe me $10, if I shoot 70,71,72 nobody owes, and if I shoot 73 or over I owe them $10 for each shot.

Then they have to do the same thing for say 80 or what ever.  That way, you're playing against the course and against your own potential.

It makes no sense for me to give a guy 20 shots and then tell people he "beat" me when he shoots 89 and I shoot 71.

I beat you Isaac, I beat you so bad your unborn future children will feel it.

[WildDog06]

isaacbm, on 24 May 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

A good game for me to play against higher handicaps is to set an over/under number.  for example, every shot I shoot under 70 they owe me $10, if I shoot 70,71,72 nobody owes, and if I shoot 73 or over I owe them $10 for each shot.

Then they have to do the same thing for say 80 or what ever.  That way, you're playing against the course and against your own potential.

Isn't that basically using the handicap anyways, playing against the course and your own potential? How you described it is basically set your own "par", and then if you shoot under that you win money, you shoot over it you lose money. How do you find the "par" for each person, and wouldn't the guy who wins the money have shot better  vs his own usual score or potential than the other guy?

[MtlJeff]

lchang, on 24 May 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

I don't think I understand this.  If I were playing a pro, why would it be fun for either of us without strokes?  (I'm an 8.5.  If I were a +3, ok....)  Especially, if it were a weekly or monthly recurring match.  One of the (many) things I like about golf is that players of very different abilities can compete against each other--and against the course and their personal history at the same time.  

Playing tennis against Pete Sampras will never be interesting for either of us.  One-on-one against LeBron is silly.  Really hard to handicap either of those sports via points, amputation of a limb, or anything else.  I guess bowling works.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression.  Why not avail yourself of the established and widely used handicap system?  What's so American about beating someone clearly less talented, less practiced, and/or less skilled than you are?  Martin Kaymer would take no pride in beating me straight up.  He probably wouldn't beating a teaching pro either.  Let alone an accountant, dentist, or computer programmer.  I wouldn't take any pride in beating a 23 handicapper or a 6-year-old.  It would be more American of me to take money from an overmatched high-handicap senior citizen without strokes?

MtlJeff, on 23 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I thought of starting this thread recently too. I won't take strokes ever in a match, i don't care if it's against a pro. I just won't play him for a lot of money but i'll go in expecting to lose. I can't imagine there's a worse feeling then taking someone's money who actually beat you at the end of the day. The handicap system if you think about it is horribly un-american. I don't really respect someone who has a handicap 2-3 shots higher then mine and takes strokes in a match for money. I know that some will disagree but that's how i feel. To me the handicap system is for keeping club tournaments open to all members and making it competitive. In a friendly weekend match you shouldn't be happy taking your friends money while taking strokes.

Golf is a sport, and the point of sport is pure true competition IMO. When i took up golf i had a friend who was genuinely better then me, and i played him straight up all the time and lost 80% of the time. I would pay off my bar bill by July every year. But it made me better in the end because i wanted to get better. If someone doesn't practice as much as me and isn't as good. I don't want to buy him lunch because he did better "for him". The heck with that, if he wants my money he can hit the practice green. Or we can play "for fun" using the handicap system.

When i was playing a lot of basketball you didn't go down to the courts and then ask the better team to spot you a 5-0 lead. You played hard and got beaten. And then when you finally got them the first time you felt a lot better about yourself.

At the end of the day if i play against Thrillhouse or Isaac (who are both better then me by probably 3-4 shots) i don't want their money because i shot 74 and they shot 71. They beat me.

[DTX 12]

I would just keep eating a free steak and not worry about it

[KYMAR]

I agree with Jeff. Handicaps work in a large scale setting in a tournament, outing or even better IMO, a team competiton when pairing a 9 or whatever with a lower cap or scratch guy. head to head I would never ever accept "victory" over a fellow competitor who beat me by 6.

[mantan]

MtlJeff, on 24 May 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

lchang, on 24 May 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

I don't think I understand this.  If I were playing a pro, why would it be fun for either of us without strokes?  (I'm an 8.5.  If I were a +3, ok....)  Especially, if it were a weekly or monthly recurring match.  One of the (many) things I like about golf is that players of very different abilities can compete against each other--and against the course and their personal history at the same time.  

Playing tennis against Pete Sampras will never be interesting for either of us.  One-on-one against LeBron is silly.  Really hard to handicap either of those sports via points, amputation of a limb, or anything else.  I guess bowling works.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression.  Why not avail yourself of the established and widely used handicap system?  What's so American about beating someone clearly less talented, less practiced, and/or less skilled than you are?  Martin Kaymer would take no pride in beating me straight up.  He probably wouldn't beating a teaching pro either.  Let alone an accountant, dentist, or computer programmer.  I wouldn't take any pride in beating a 23 handicapper or a 6-year-old.  It would be more American of me to take money from an overmatched high-handicap senior citizen without strokes?

MtlJeff, on 23 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

I thought of starting this thread recently too. I won't take strokes ever in a match, i don't care if it's against a pro. I just won't play him for a lot of money but i'll go in expecting to lose. I can't imagine there's a worse feeling then taking someone's money who actually beat you at the end of the day. The handicap system if you think about it is horribly un-american. I don't really respect someone who has a handicap 2-3 shots higher then mine and takes strokes in a match for money. I know that some will disagree but that's how i feel. To me the handicap system is for keeping club tournaments open to all members and making it competitive. In a friendly weekend match you shouldn't be happy taking your friends money while taking strokes.

Golf is a sport, and the point of sport is pure true competition IMO. When i took up golf i had a friend who was genuinely better then me, and i played him straight up all the time and lost 80% of the time. I would pay off my bar bill by July every year. But it made me better in the end because i wanted to get better. If someone doesn't practice as much as me and isn't as good. I don't want to buy him lunch because he did better "for him". The heck with that, if he wants my money he can hit the practice green. Or we can play "for fun" using the handicap system.

When i was playing a lot of basketball you didn't go down to the courts and then ask the better team to spot you a 5-0 lead. You played hard and got beaten. And then when you finally got them the first time you felt a lot better about yourself.

At the end of the day if i play against Thrillhouse or Isaac (who are both better then me by probably 3-4 shots) i don't want their money because i shot 74 and they shot 71. They beat me.

But the difference in golf is that it's one the few sports where you can 'objectively' level the playing field so different level players can compete.   If adminstered correctly, it allows golfers of different ability to compete.  It doesn't mean a golfer is suddenly better than someone.

I often play with Sam-Tee-Time off this board.  He's about 5 strokes better than me. We normally play match play with somewhere between 4-6 strokes (depending on we decide on the first tee).   If we played straight up, he'd likely beat me 80% of the time.  Over the past 5 years I would say our matches are 50/50 based on who's playing better or executes down the stretch that day.  Even on days I 'win', I'm under no delusion that I'm a better golfer than him. I just beat him in a golf match.

[lchang]

So, to the advocates of not using the handicap system:  if I play golf with my father whose index is 21 points higher, you think I should (a) not compete or (b) play him straight up.  Those are the only two choices that seem right to you?  When you said "for fun", did you mean to imply a third choice:  © competition with strokes but not for money?  Or did you mean (a):  don't compete at all?

Then there's the unacceptable option:  (d) use the handicap system for a little bit of money.

To me, (d) and © are a lot more fun than (a) and (b).  It seems weird to me that you would judge either as inappropriate.  I would judge (b) as inappropriate.  Less fun for me, for sure, and not at all fair to my 69-year-old dad.  

"Golf is a sport."  Sure, but earlier, I pointed out the fundamental difference between golf (and bowling, I guess) and some other sports:
                    Playing tennis against Pete Sampras will never be interesting for either of us. One-on-one against LeBron is silly. Really hard to handicap either of those sports via points, amputation of a limb, or anything else.

[MtlJeff]

maybe it's just me then. But i don't want to play for even .01$ if i'm taking strokes. I can't take someone's money unless i beat him for real

[mantan]

MtlJeff, on 24 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

maybe it's just me then. But i don't want to play for even .01$ if i'm taking strokes. I can't take someone's money unless i beat him for real

We usually play for a nominal amount, (usually drinks in the clubhouse afterward), so for us it's more about the fun of the competition.  

The nice thing is if one of us plays well (to our potential), we'll usually win.  If we play evenly (good, bad or middle of the road), it'll be close - but we both push to 'win' that day.  When we played straight up the only way I'd beat him is if I played great and he was off.  Yeah I won....but it wasn't like I caught him.  I just caught him that day.

I see your point though if people were playing for bigger stakes.