106 replies to this topic

[highcapper]

Little background: new to golf, this is my 2nd full season, played a handful or rounds my entire life, not a whippersnapper(37). I have played or practiced everyday for the last 2 years and have had a few lessons. I have the calloused hands, broken-worn out clubs, torn up gloves, receipts, and chiropractor bills to prove it.  I play the ball down, always putt out, and post my ESC adj. score. I have made huge gains lately and my current HI is a 23 down from 27 two weeks ago.. Started playing a weekly league, a lot of older guys and seniors and they are all calling me a sandbagger. Some are joking, which is cool I flip them crap right back, but others are serious. It's usually the guys my age.  My partner and I are in second place in our flight. Basically I can hit the bar far as anybody I have played, other than a 290 carry guy I played with a couple times and my irons were even in line with his, but I have just figured out how to score, course management,no ob, limit 3 putts, fairway and greens etc.and my scores are dropping BIGTIME!. Like 42's in league 9, 85-90 in a few practice rounds. I shot a 84 today in a tourney with a triple on 18(a senior guy easily 60+ years old with a 22 cap shot 77??, don't know the guy but maybe he just learned how to play golf also), so I got 2nd place and I am sure a s***storm is coming next week at league. I had to leave before the official announcement.

I have worked my a** off, studied the game, and spent a s***load of money to learn how to play golf by the USGA rules. It seems I am reaping the benefits right now, but I am getting annoyed at the sandbagger comments. I am sure I will be a sub 18 in the next month or two and will be more in line with my current game.


Any advice on how to handle these guys would be appreciated.

Edited by Riuzzi, 06 May 2012 - 02:52 PM.
Language ;)

[Thrillhouse]

Tell em that if they don't shut their trap and take their medication to shrink their prostate they are gonna miss the early bird special at country kitchen buffet next time they call you a sandbagger.

Take that old people!

[SLB_Golfer]

Until your handicap comes down, which it should quickly shooting 84's in tournaments, you fit the definition of a sandbagger.  If you want to avoid the comments you could adjust your handicap yourself and play to something more realistic.

[takafam]

Keep playing and ignore the little people.  Been there done this, nothing you say will resolve heir miserable ways.

Congrats on your game.  Keep it up!!

[allegrolink]

Post everything and ask the haters to be happy for your success. I shot a 75 when I was a 25 handicap while on a buddy trip. They guys who knew me well were happy for me, They knew my handicap was legit. The other guys thought I was a sandbagger,  Took me nearly ten years to break 80 again.

[Veng]

Any time someone shoots better than thier handicap they're going to be called a sandbagger.  Which is sad, because 20% of the people in a tournament SHOULD shoot better than their handicap.  




Oh, tell them you need to sandbag harder evidently as your current sandbagging only got you second.  

[CallawayLefty]

84 off of a 23 is believable.

77 off of a 22 however is complete garbage.  

You are an improving golfer.  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  Just make sure you both post your scores.  Let's just say the differential on that 77 was a 5...if he's a 23, he's probably got at least one 30+ round included in his current cap...that handicap just go lowered by 2.5 right there.  But honestly, if you can shoot a tournament 77, I think it's unlikely that your "real" handicap is much higher than 10 or 12 at most.  

See, e.g.:

http://www.usga.org/...deanstable.html

[deadsolid...shank]

SLB_Golfer, on 05 May 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Until your handicap comes down, which it should quickly shooting 84's in tournaments, you fit the definition of a sandbagger.  If you want to avoid the comments you could adjust your handicap yourself and play to something more realistic.

No he doens't fit the definition of a sandbagger. A sandbagger is someone who purposely manipulates either their score or their handicapp to gain an advantage in handicapped play. He's doing everything the correct way, his handicap just hasn't caught up to his scores yet, but it will.  If you happen to be playing  extremely poor and can't play to your current handicap, you don't adjust your cap upwards so why disadvantage yourself and have them put in a lower number.

Until your handicap adjusts, which like SLB_Golfer says, it will quickly, just keep doing what you're doing, which is nothing wrong. The one thing that always holds true in handicaped tournament play is noboby like the guys who win. Let em continue to whine, and when it does drop and you play a couple of events where you don't cash, be sure to point that out to the whiners. But when you're out of the money, you're popularity will increase substanially.

[GatorNate11]

Don't worry about it, man. You're doing it the right way, your handicap will adjust to it. Once you get around 10, the large improvements will stop, and smaller gains will be made, your handicap should stay pretty well in line with you from then on out.

[SpinMill75]

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

84 off of a 23 is believable.

77 off of a 22 however is complete garbage.  

You are an improving golfer.  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  Just make sure you both post your scores.  Let's just say the differential on that 77 was a 5...if he's a 23, he's probably got at least one 30+ round included in his current cap...that handicap just go lowered by 2.5 right there.  But honestly, if you can shoot a tournament 77, I think it's unlikely that your "real" handicap is much higher than 10 or 12 at most.  

See, e.g.:

http://www.usga.org/...deanstable.html

+1 ^^^ This^^^

[saltcity]

Look at other 23 handicapers and ask yourself honestly - "I'm I a 23?"
It's not writen in stone that you have to play your 23. If you play even with a 14 or 15 hdcp, play off that.  
Shooting in the 40's for nine holes, 77 in a tourny doesn't sound like a 23 hdcp to me.

Every club, every league, everywhere will have sandbaggers and guys complaining about alleged sandbaggers. Part of the game I'm affraid. The best you can hope for is for guys to be honest.

[bortass]

Sometimes this happens to me. I'm about a 28 but sometimes I play like a 23 and card a 91. I just tell them to look me up in GHIN. My top ten range from 102 to 88.

  Anyone who is improving will have this happen. Just roll with it. You're doing what you are supposed to.

[highcapper]

saltcity, on 06 May 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Look at other 23 handicapers and ask yourself honestly - "I'm I a 23?"
It's not writen in stone that you have to play your 23. If you play even with a 14 or 15 hdcp, play off that.  
Shooting in the 40's for nine holes, 77 in a tourny doesn't sound like a 23 hdcp to me.

Every club, every league, everywhere will have sandbaggers and guys complaining about alleged sandbaggers. Part of the game I'm affraid. The best you can hope for is for guys to be honest.

You didn't read the post correctly. A 22 shot a 77 I shot a 84 @ a 23. I am a 23 and as far as I know all 23's should be playing like me. If their not than they are not entering their scores properly or not playing the ball down I don't  know,all I know is how I came to be a 23.

I learned to play by the rules and my few close golf buddies play the same way and we don't enjoy playing any other way. They are not as interested in playing organized competitions as I am and could care less about a handicap. We play fun rounds and compete fairly because we know each others true potential and adjust games according. Since I want to actually compete at this game in tournys I liked the idea of the handicap process, because it allows me to compete fairly with anybody. So I worked hard to learn the USGA handicap rules and I follow them. Voluntarily changing my handicap when I have done everything by the book defeats the purpose of having it and lessens the process's value in my eyes. Also playing this well is a new thing for me and I am not sure what will happen in the future, will I keep it up, will I regress, maybe I get even better. What I haved learned is a 110 is always a possibility in this game no matter how skilled you are.  

It is discouraging to learn that people cheat in order to win some pro shop credit or a few measly bucks and it is already killing my motivation to play handicapped events. It seems my only options are to find a honest game I enjoy or get good enough to play off gross score.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on the whiners. Since there is no way to avoid them I am just going to start saying, "Thanks for the compliment on my game"  when they call me a sandbagger and see how far they want to push it. I live on this course and I don't want to lose my cool with somebody if it is avoidable which it may not be if we are competing for money. I am planning to join a couple of summer leagues at nicer courses so maybe I can find a game I enjoy.

[heggy]

Hidden brag post?

[Aithos]

I'm with everyone else, don't worry about it.  If you keep posting good scores the handicap will come down quickly enough and they'll be able to see it.  But if you're posting 80s every week and still at 23 a couple months from now I'd be ready for people to continue giving you crap!



Glad you're making good progress, I know that's a good feeling!

[allegrolink]

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

...  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  ...

Perhaps you are confused by the concept of odds. I was a legit 25 and shot 75. No cheating. No sandbagging. Posted every score. Simply had the round of my life.  Odds of me doing it were astronomical. But I did it with witnesses. And two of the witnesses played golf with me all the time and knew I'd never broken 90 with them before. Shot 95 in the afternoon on the same course. But that 75 allowed me to hang on through a 6-round event to win by one stroke. Round of my life. Kind of like winning the lotto.

Edited by allegrolink, 06 May 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[CallawayLefty]

allegrolink, on 06 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

...  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  ...

Perhaps you are confused by the concept of odds. I was a legit 25 and shot 75. No cheating. No sandbagging. Posted every score. Simply had the round of my life.  Odds of me doing it were astronomical. But I did it with witnesses. And two of the witnesses played golf with me all the time and knew I'd never broken 90 with them before. Shot 95 in the afternoon on the same course. But that 75 allowed me to hang on through a 6-round event to win by one stroke. Round of my life. Kind of like winning the lotto.

No, I understand the odds perfectly well.  Here's the thing, I didn't question your round.  I question the other 99.99999% of such rounds that are posted every week across the country in club and amateur events.  There's a local amateur super senior in my area that basically shoots net under par in every "real" event he plays in.  I have seen three day tournaments where he netted something like 15 under.  I personally played against two "8 or 9" handicaps in a club tournament who both shot even par in the 9 holes I was paired with them.  What I'm saying is that 99.9999% of these rounds are complete BS.  They are garbage, and are posted by cheaters who value $75 gift cards to the pro shop more than their self-respect, honesty, and integrity.  

It sounds like you are in the 0.00001% that have actually accomplished this miracle.  If you ask me, it's even more miraculous given that there is a mental component to golf that absolutely cannot be captured by statistics.  Congrats on beating the odds!  I sort of knew that you might see my post and think I was referring to you, but I wasn't.  Your round sounds legit and like a great story.  But know that anytime you hear of this other than yours, it's a load of manure.

Edited by CallawayLefty, 06 May 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[MadGolfer76]

allegrolink, on 06 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

...  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  ...

Perhaps you are confused by the concept of odds. I was a legit 25 and shot 75. No cheating. No sandbagging. Posted every score. Simply had the round of my life.  Odds of me doing it were astronomical. But I did it with witnesses. And two of the witnesses played golf with me all the time and knew I'd never broken 90 with them before. Shot 95 in the afternoon on the same course. But that 75 allowed me to hang on through a 6-round event to win by one stroke. Round of my life. Kind of like winning the lotto.

The odds of that happening are akin to getting struck by lightning.

[Veng]

MadGolfer76, on 06 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

allegrolink, on 06 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

...  Mr. 77 is a cheater.  His odds of shooting a -10 differential were 1:1,650.  They stop the chart at that, but obviously his odds of bettering that by 7 (assuming a -17 differential) were astronomically worse - probably like 1 in 100+ thousand.  I'm not saying it didn't happen...actually, wait, that's exactly what I'm saying.  ...

Perhaps you are confused by the concept of odds. I was a legit 25 and shot 75. No cheating. No sandbagging. Posted every score. Simply had the round of my life.  Odds of me doing it were astronomical. But I did it with witnesses. And two of the witnesses played golf with me all the time and knew I'd never broken 90 with them before. Shot 95 in the afternoon on the same course. But that 75 allowed me to hang on through a 6-round event to win by one stroke. Round of my life. Kind of like winning the lotto.

The odds of that happening are akin to getting struck by lightning.

The odds of winning the lotto or being struck by lightning are extremely rare.  Yet someone must win the lotto and someone must be struck by lightning.  You can go through your whole life calling everyone one of these stories a sandbagger and never be wrong, but then again you might be wrong once.  Frankly, I wasn't involved so I just don't care.

[golfnut-2X]

Congrats on improving your game.

Agree with CallawayLefty on just looking at the math.  That's why its so frustrating to play in any more tournaments that are handicapped which are basically all of them except the club championship.

The tournament committee is constantly reviewing scores, if people post, along with tournament scores versus posted scores.  The world is full of cheaters and especially when you add the money factor.  If we have a legitimate handicap we are only going to reach it 1 in 5 rounds on average and not kill it either which is extremely rare.  

If you have a handicap committee where you play they should be adjusting the GHIN handicap down based on tournament scores and your index will show up on GHIN as "R".

[tmfool]

if you truly are posting all scores - than ghin index will catch up with you.


until index reflects 42 for 9 and 84 in tournament play -- you are prone to curved eyebrow comments.

its part of the game. just dont ask for too many shots in your next fourball match

[MadGolfer76]

Veng, on 06 May 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 06 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

allegrolink, on 06 May 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Perhaps you are confused by the concept of odds. I was a legit 25 and shot 75. No cheating. No sandbagging. Posted every score. Simply had the round of my life.  Odds of me doing it were astronomical. But I did it with witnesses. And two of the witnesses played golf with me all the time and knew I'd never broken 90 with them before. Shot 95 in the afternoon on the same course. But that 75 allowed me to hang on through a 6-round event to win by one stroke. Round of my life. Kind of like winning the lotto.

The odds of that happening are akin to getting struck by lightning.

The odds of winning the lotto or being struck by lightning are extremely rare.  Yet someone must win the lotto and someone must be struck by lightning.  You can go through your whole life calling everyone one of these stories a sandbagger and never be wrong, but then again you might be wrong once.  Frankly, I wasn't involved so I just don't care.

[Aithos]

Veng, on 06 May 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 06 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The odds of that happening are akin to getting struck by lightning.

The odds of winning the lotto or being struck by lightning are extremely rare.  Yet someone must win the lotto and someone must be struck by lightning.  You can go through your whole life calling everyone one of these stories a sandbagger and never be wrong, but then again you might be wrong once.  Frankly, I wasn't involved so I just don't care.

Does that mean I can hope to go out tomorrow and shoot a 67?  I mean, I could play the round of my life right?  I can't even remember the last time I went a whole round without a double bogey, and I've only ever made 1-2 birdies in a round...but lightning could strike and I could shoot -4 right?  I guess it's probably more likely I'll win the lottery...just saying.

[mark m]

There is some incorrect info posted here.

As someone said, sandbagging is purposeful/deliberate practice where someone is consciously manipulating the handicap system for personal gain.

There are other legitimate reasons for a handicap to be inaccurate. Your situation is one of these (it is listed first) "the player is improving faster than the system can react"

See here (section 8-4c):  

http://www.usga.org/...Manual/Rule-08/

Your Handicap Committee can make an adjustment to your index so that it better reflects your potential ability. They would need information from you to be able to make a good decision (IMO). If your current situation really does bother you - you could be proactive and contact the Handicap Chairman about this. If the Committee does adjust your handicap Index it would be done with the letter "M" for "modified by the Committee" (not an 'R'). It is all in this section referenced above if you are inclined to read through it.


Congrats on your improvement and good luck going forward.

[Veng]

Aithos, on 06 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Veng, on 06 May 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

MadGolfer76, on 06 May 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

The odds of that happening are akin to getting struck by lightning.

The odds of winning the lotto or being struck by lightning are extremely rare.  Yet someone must win the lotto and someone must be struck by lightning.  You can go through your whole life calling everyone one of these stories a sandbagger and never be wrong, but then again you might be wrong once.  Frankly, I wasn't involved so I just don't care.

Does that mean I can hope to go out tomorrow and shoot a 67?  I mean, I could play the round of my life right?  I can't even remember the last time I went a whole round without a double bogey, and I've only ever made 1-2 birdies in a round...but lightning could strike and I could shoot -4 right?  I guess it's probably more likely I'll win the lottery...just saying.

I said it's possible, I didn't say it's likely.  And frankly, it's much more likely you win the lotto than have a -4.  

And frankly, I find it sad that someone who wrote a 4 page thesis about "How to talk about golf" would act like such an a** when confronted with simple math.

Edited by Veng, 06 May 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Aithos]

Veng, on 06 May 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Aithos, on 06 May 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Veng, on 06 May 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

The odds of winning the lotto or being struck by lightning are extremely rare.  Yet someone must win the lotto and someone must be struck by lightning.  You can go through your whole life calling everyone one of these stories a sandbagger and never be wrong, but then again you might be wrong once.  Frankly, I wasn't involved so I just don't care.

Does that mean I can hope to go out tomorrow and shoot a 67?  I mean, I could play the round of my life right?  I can't even remember the last time I went a whole round without a double bogey, and I've only ever made 1-2 birdies in a round...but lightning could strike and I could shoot -4 right?  I guess it's probably more likely I'll win the lottery...just saying.

I said it's possible, I didn't say it's likely.  And frankly, it's much more likely you win the lotto than have a -4.  

And frankly, I find it sad that someone who wrote a 4 page thesis about "How to talk about golf" would act like such an a** when confronted with simple math.

Wow,  I was making a joke.  Tongue in cheek, the little rolling around the floor laughing guy and everything...

[roll - gybe]

There is just so much sandbagging out there, I cannot take it!

Plus ones playing off fours, guys winning 24 under net, guys shooting 65 gross off their own ball and coming in at the bottom of their flight.

It just takes the fun out of golf.  I just shot 132 net this weekend, and I got destroyed.

[CallawayLefty]

roll - gybe, on 06 May 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

There is just so much sandbagging out there, I cannot take it!

Plus ones playing off fours, guys winning 24 under net, guys shooting 65 gross off their own ball and coming in at the bottom of their flight.

It just takes the fun out of golf.  I just shot 132 net this weekend, and I got destroyed.

Uhhhh, if you shot 132, maybe you ought to take a look in the mirror when you're saying that.  I'm not saying that's by any means impossible, but we're getting into the "unlikely" end of things again.  

http://www.usga.org/...deanstable.html

Edited by CallawayLefty, 06 May 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[roll - gybe]

Yes one of my rounds was near the unlikely range.  Although, as a 6, I seem to have a wider dispersion than ever in general.  I am a good putter and longish and wild.  Ball in play means I can really score, but otherwise I am hitting three of the tee.


I shot LIGHTS OUT, and got KILLED this weekend.  This was my best event in three years.  The same ole guys shot 59 and 60 on the weekend.

[highcapper]

CallawayLefty, on 06 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

roll - gybe, on 06 May 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

There is just so much sandbagging out there, I cannot take it!

Plus ones playing off fours, guys winning 24 under net, guys shooting 65 gross off their own ball and coming in at the bottom of their flight.

It just takes the fun out of golf.  I just shot 132 net this weekend, and I got destroyed.

Uhhhh, if you shot 132, maybe you ought to take a look in the mirror when you're saying that.  I'm not saying that's by any means impossible, but we're getting into the "unlikely" end of things again.  

http://www.usga.org/...deanstable.html

Callaway, and everyone else that doesnt think I am bragging or feel the need to write a hypocritical novel on how to properly agree with them or else, thanks for the quality posts keep em coming. I am learning alot about how people keep their index. It's sad actually and I agree it takes the fun out of it.

After reviewing that table I can see where my score is suspect , but has also enlightened me on some other scores i have seen at our club. For instance, the guy I was keeping score for was playing at a 22 and we tied on the front 41. Then his whiskey/cokes kicked in on the back and he shot a 47. He is a regular at the clubhouse bar ,like NORM from Cheers regular, a nice guy otherwise and knows my game is legit, but warned me there was gonna be some talk in clubhouse about my scores after the round. Since we were only a couple strokes apart he would of had to be bagging right alongside me and I see now that is how it  works around there. They are all just baggin and bitching if they dont bag enough.  

I also like the idea of being pro-active and going to the Handicap guy for our club to get his take on it and see if I should modify my index according to the manual. Mark-m thanks for bringing that to my attention. I tried searching for something like that on the USGA website but didnt have much luck. That site needs a EASY button something fierce.