110 replies to this topic

[Aithos]

 gopherguts, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I've played nearly every category of club on the market within the last two months...I was in multiple golf shops literally dozens of times hitting things on different days.  I don't think there was a single set I didn't hit at least 2-3 times, I looked with launch monitor and without.  I ended up with blades because I got the best numbers with them, I felt the most confident with them and I liked the look/feel the best.  The pro who fit me agreed with my opinion and the Taylormade Rep thought I was stupid because I'm not a single digit and suggested R11 irons (go figure).  It was the best fit for *my* game, no one elses.  I don't go around telling every guy who plays Ping g20s to stop hitting shovels and buy some blades...it's RUDE.  Telling me that only pros are good enough to play blades and that I'm stupid and throwing strokes away is *RUDE* not to mention wrong.  I'm tired of both sides making ignorant blanket statements for or against what *they* prefer.

And here I thought *I* was a salesman's/store owner's worst nightmare !!!

So what blades did you buy ? Oops, never mind, just looked at your sig. MP 69's. Nice.

And what's your handicap ?

I actually worked in sales for nearly 10 years, I made sure to go to different stores and didn't take up hardly any time with the employees.  I was clear from the get go what timeframe I was purchasing in so they actually had it really easy because I was up front and honest through the whole process.  Salespeople don't mind people who come in a lot, they hate people who string them along and take up a ton of their time without ever buying.  I've also referred several people to the guys I ordered from, so they made out pretty good

As to my handicap, I'm currently playing at around a 17.  However, I used to play to close to a 10...if you're curious why you can read my profile (about me).  It's a long story and I don't need to rehash it again, I've typed too much in this thread already.  I love the clubs, I've been hitting them really well.  I think I am finally figuring out my driver so as soon as I stop missing 9 fairways right and 2 left my handicap will start dropping really fast.  This is my first year playing after an extended period where I didn't play.  I shot a 38 for 9 holes the other day so it's only a matter of getting more rounds played before my number gets lower...

[kjbowen]

 gopherguts, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I've played nearly every category of club on the market within the last two months...I was in multiple golf shops literally dozens of times hitting things on different days.  I don't think there was a single set I didn't hit at least 2-3 times, I looked with launch monitor and without.  I ended up with blades because I got the best numbers with them, I felt the most confident with them and I liked the look/feel the best.  The pro who fit me agreed with my opinion and the Taylormade Rep thought I was stupid because I'm not a single digit and suggested R11 irons (go figure).  It was the best fit for *my* game, no one elses.  I don't go around telling every guy who plays Ping g20s to stop hitting shovels and buy some blades...it's RUDE.  Telling me that only pros are good enough to play blades and that I'm stupid and throwing strokes away is *RUDE* not to mention wrong.  I'm tired of both sides making ignorant blanket statements for or against what *they* prefer.

And here I thought *I* was a salesman's/store owner's worst nightmare !!!

So what blades did you buy ? Oops, never mind, just looked at your sig. MP 69's. Nice.

And what's your handicap ?

If you are a double digit hc and you think blades are the best fit for your game you may have gotten hit with an errant tee shot. A lot of tour pros game cavity or players irons and you think shooting mid 80s or higher that blades will help.. Not only will you look like a tool when your posting a 94 on your ghin but you will not improve. Im sorry I know you won't like to hear this but to play a blade at your skill level is absurd. I really hope you rethink it but if you don't good luck

[kjbowen]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

 gopherguts, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I've played nearly every category of club on the market within the last two months...I was in multiple golf shops literally dozens of times hitting things on different days.  I don't think there was a single set I didn't hit at least 2-3 times, I looked with launch monitor and without.  I ended up with blades because I got the best numbers with them, I felt the most confident with them and I liked the look/feel the best.  The pro who fit me agreed with my opinion and the Taylormade Rep thought I was stupid because I'm not a single digit and suggested R11 irons (go figure).  It was the best fit for *my* game, no one elses.  I don't go around telling every guy who plays Ping g20s to stop hitting shovels and buy some blades...it's RUDE.  Telling me that only pros are good enough to play blades and that I'm stupid and throwing strokes away is *RUDE* not to mention wrong.  I'm tired of both sides making ignorant blanket statements for or against what *they* prefer.

And here I thought *I* was a salesman's/store owner's worst nightmare !!!

So what blades did you buy ? Oops, never mind, just looked at your sig. MP 69's. Nice.

And what's your handicap ?

I actually worked in sales for nearly 10 years, I made sure to go to different stores and didn't take up hardly any time with the employees.  I was clear from the get go what timeframe I was purchasing in so they actually had it really easy because I was up front and honest through the whole process.  Salespeople don't mind people who come in a lot, they hate people who string them along and take up a ton of their time without ever buying.  I've also referred several people to the guys I ordered from, so they made out pretty good

As to my handicap, I'm currently playing at around a 17.  However, I used to play to close to a 10...if you're curious why you can read my profile (about me).  It's a long story and I don't need to rehash it again, I've typed too much in this thread already.  I love the clubs, I've been hitting them really well.  I think I am finally figuring out my driver so as soon as I stop missing 9 fairways right and 2 left my handicap will start dropping really fast.  This is my first year playing after an extended period where I didn't play.  I shot a 38 for 9 holes the other day so it's only a matter of getting more rounds played before my number gets lower...

I'm guessing your hc went from a 10 to a 17 the day you played blades

[Aithos]

 kjbowen, on 30 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

I actually worked in sales for nearly 10 years, I made sure to go to different stores and didn't take up hardly any time with the employees.  I was clear from the get go what timeframe I was purchasing in so they actually had it really easy because I was up front and honest through the whole process.  Salespeople don't mind people who come in a lot, they hate people who string them along and take up a ton of their time without ever buying.  I've also referred several people to the guys I ordered from, so they made out pretty good

As to my handicap, I'm currently playing at around a 17.  However, I used to play to close to a 10...if you're curious why you can read my profile (about me).  It's a long story and I don't need to rehash it again, I've typed too much in this thread already.  I love the clubs, I've been hitting them really well.  I think I am finally figuring out my driver so as soon as I stop missing 9 fairways right and 2 left my handicap will start dropping really fast.  This is my first year playing after an extended period where I didn't play.  I shot a 38 for 9 holes the other day so it's only a matter of getting more rounds played before my number gets lower...

I'm guessing your hc went from a 10 to a 17 the day you played blades

No, actually I got cancer and had surgery twice on my leg.  Then I lost my job and had to borrow money just to pay my bills.  I played less than 50 rounds in 7 years, so when I started up this year forgive me if I was a bit rusty.  Nice try though.

edit:  Oh, and the first round I played with my new blades, I dropped 11 strokes off my previous round.  I've also shot by far my best scores in the last 7 years and had more birdies and pars in a month than I did in the entire previous stretch.  My confidence in my irons and wedges has never been higher.  If I had felt this way about my irons/wedges back in 2004 and had these clubs I would have long ago broken 80 and been a single digit.  I'll get there, don't you worry

Edited by Aithos, 30 April 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Medic]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

  

The guy who was arguing with me earlier told me it was "an opinion" and to chill out and have a beer.  I'm the guy sitting here arguing to stop making stupid blanket statements that are WRONG and OPINIONS.  Irony anyone?

Ironic to say the least.

What is really funny to me is the sadness that is the reality - one of my friends is playing irons better than he is. He has incredible potential but he let a slick salesman talk him into pulling the trigger on irons that are above his level of consistency. His game most definitely suffers as a result. When he is "on", I cannot beat him. I work hard to keep up. But when his swing is off, even a little, I win a bunch of skins, blow him outta the water, and leave him wondering what just happened. I know, from the results of my experiment, that if he were to have purchased GI irons he would probably have fewer "off" rounds. (I base this on how well he hits mine for crying out loud!)

But he went into a box store, let them talk him into the Nike Forged, and the rest is history. He went from an old set of Titleist DCI's to this new set. He says he is still getting them dialed in. (Pride has a funny way of doing this I guess - formulating nice excuses and denial) I advised him that he needed to get an open fitting centered on his ball flight, swing speed, and all of the other factors - not based on one brand and one set. These were the lessons I learned the hard way. He swore that the irons would "make him better".

The last time we played he actually left after 9 - he was doing to badly he could not possibly have caught me. He paid me for the skins and overall low and left at the turn. I felt bad for him. He is a nice example of how the wrong clubs can adversely affect play. He isn't the type to ever admit defeat so I would really be surprised if he ever gave up and sold them. (like I did) But until he does there is one thing for certain - he isn't having as much fun playing and it isn't as much fun for the rest of us who play with him either. Noone likes to see someone suffer.

[Aithos]

 Medic, on 30 April 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

  

The guy who was arguing with me earlier told me it was "an opinion" and to chill out and have a beer.  I'm the guy sitting here arguing to stop making stupid blanket statements that are WRONG and OPINIONS.  Irony anyone?

Ironic to say the least.

What is really funny to me is the sadness that is the reality - one of my friends is playing irons better than he is. He has incredible potential but he let a slick salesman talk him into pulling the trigger on irons that are above his level of consistency. His game most definitely suffers as a result. When he is "on", I cannot beat him. I work hard to keep up. But when his swing is off, even a little, I win a bunch of skins, blow him outta the water, and leave him wondering what just happened. I know, from the results of my experiment, that if he were to have purchased GI irons he would probably have fewer "off" rounds. (I base this on how well he hits mine for crying out loud!)

But he went into a box store, let them talk him into the Nike Forged, and the rest is history. He went from an old set of Titleist DCI's to this new set. He says he is still getting them dialed in. (Pride has a funny way of doing this I guess - formulating nice excuses and denial) I advised him that he needed to get an open fitting centered on his ball flight, swing speed, and all of the other factors - not based on one brand and one set. These were the lessons I learned the hard way. He swore that the irons would "make him better".

The last time we played he actually left after 9 - he was doing to badly he could not possibly have caught me. He paid me for the skins and overall low and left at the turn. I felt bad for him. He is a nice example of how the wrong clubs can adversely affect play. He isn't the type to ever admit defeat so I would really be surprised if he ever gave up and sold them. (like I did) But until he does there is one thing for certain - he isn't having as much fun playing and it isn't as much fun for the rest of us who play with him either. Noone likes to see someone suffer.

I agree with you 100% And if he is literally quitting in the middle of a round for actual money, those clubs aren't right for him.  Could he play them?  Sure, particularly if he is stubborn and puts the time into his *GAME* to get better at that aspect.  But let's face it, most people aren't willing to do what it takes.  But that's why I advocate using what works for you, let someone else figure out what is best for them.  Feel free to give me your opinion, I'll be glad to hear it.  Just don't imply that because you don't agree with me that I'm stupid *AND* a worse golfer because of it.  Any one of you are welcome to come to Iowa and play a couple rounds with me, I'll buy a six pack of beer and we can play 9 or 18.  I have a membership for the first time this year so I can't get out there enough...

[Wknd_Warrior]

I don;t know why people think they have to justify what clubs they play with a handicap.  If you want to look for ego in the game look to the people that are proud of themselves cause they are humble enough to admit they aren't Tiger Woods while they are optimizing their equipment to shave every stroke off their game like each putt they make was worth $10,000.  

I've never played GI irons, probably nevr will, I could care less what my cap is.  If I was forced to play super shovels I probably would lose interest in the game completely.  Why do you think it's your responsibility to get the absolute lowest possible score, we aren't getting paid for this.  And btw, even if GI clubs help your game, which it might not some, you actually aren't a better golfer, you're just making slightly better scores.  

It's one thing to prefer that, or have your own preference, but to brow beat people cause they aren't seaarching the globe for the perfect club that'll shave a stroke and a half offf of something they do for fun, possibly dulling the experience in the process as a trade off for being able to brag they are a x.x now I dunno, then you talk about EGO?

remember, you can't beat this game, you just play it.



...ok, that's a lie lol, I want to beat it, but anyhow you get it...

[gopherguts]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

 gopherguts, on 30 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Like to see a few links to those studies. TIA

But meanwhile, given the legend himself, Ben Hogan, claimed only 3 perfect (or however he phrased it) hits per round out of approximately 40, you want me to rely on blades to post my best scores ?

I think not.

I got a guy in my club that I play a match with every week. We're very close in overall ability. He's got a slight edge in driver distance, I've got a slight edge in accuracy. He's got a decent advantage in chipping and putting though. But he just LOVES his blades. I do too. Splash, bunker, shortside.

Beat him like a drum. If he ever goes G.I. I'd probably have to ask for shots or stop betting him.

How about I just get my buddy who is a brilliant physicist to come in and explain the physics behind it.  Honestly, I've explained it before and I'm tired of it.  It's a fact and if you don't want to take my word for it I don't care, almost no one on this forum listens anyway.  

As for Hogan:  what defines a perfect shot?  Is he talking about where he struck it on the clubface or the end result?  What was the context of the quote?  Those things matter.  If Hogan, who is arguably one of the best ballstrikers ever says that he had 3 perfect shots a round, I'm going to wager he means both the strike and the result.  Also, the degree of miss matters.  Just because something isn't dead on the single molecule perfect doesn't meant the result won't be a great shot.  I'd wager of those 40 shots that Hogan hit 39 of them on the sweet spot and some other factor caused them to not be perfect.  Path, clubface angle and a multitude of other things cause bad shots.  Just because you didn't hit it where you wanted doesn't mean it was because you hit it off-center.

And finally, and this is in caps so please read it twice:  I DON'T WANT YOU TO PLAY ANYTHING THAT ISN'T RIGHT FOR YOUR GAME.  I've said it so many times I can't phrase it any other way.  I'm beginning to think everyone here just can't read or maybe you all speak a different language, I can't be any more clear.  The fact of the matter is that your buddy may or may not have a game suited for blades.  In this case you have first hand knowledge of his results, whether you have actually spent some time analyzing his game and swing I don't know.  But I would be willing to bet that even if he started playing GI irons he wouldn't suddenly start trouncing you, it doesn't work that way if you beat him as steadily as you're implying.  If Tiger Woods switched to GI he isn't going to suddenly start winning majors again.  IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.  

If you gain something, you take something else away.  Period. End of story.  There is no utopia, there is no "perfect" golf club any more than there is a "perfect" car or woman or man or food or ANYTHING.  Perfection doesn't exist.  You can strive for it, the pursuit is worthwhile and commendable...but to think that ANYTHING is "one size fits all" is plain ignorant and I'm going to do my best to not say it again.  (we all know I'm going to fail).

Not sure exactly what set you off,,,,,, AGAIN,,,,,, but

How about *I* get a buddy to tell you *I* ain't starrman,,,,,,,,



Physician, heal THYSELF,,,,,

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

First of all, I think you need that beer and chill time.  

[Aithos]

 Wknd_Warrior, on 30 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I don;t know why people think they have to justify what clubs they play with a handicap.  If you want to look for ego in the game look to the people that are proud of themselves cause they are humble enough to admit they aren't Tiger Woods while they are optimizing their equipment to shave every stroke off their game like each putt they make was worth $10,000.  

I've never played GI irons, probably nevr will, I could care less what my cap is.  If I was forced to play super shovels I probably would lose interest in the game completely.  Why do you think it's your responsibility to get the absolute lowest possible score, we aren't getting paid for this.  And btw, even if GI clubs help your game, which it might not some, you actually aren't a better golfer, you're just making slightly better scores.  

It's one thing to prefer that, or have your own preference, but to brow beat people cause they aren't seaarching the globe for the perfect club that'll shave a stroke and a half offf of something they do for fun, possibly dulling the experience in the process as a trade off for being able to brag they are a x.x now I dunno, then you talk about EGO?

remember, you can't beat this game, you just play it.



...ok, that's a lie lol, I want to beat it, but anyhow you get it...

Oh, I don't care to justify my purchase with a handicap.  I'm perfectly happy with my clubs right now.  Even if I didn't get one stroke better I'd still be happy with the clubs.  I'm super competetive and so I wouldn't be happy about not improving my game, but I don't blame my scores on my equipment either.  I blame my scores on the swings I make and the shots I hit (strange concept huh?).  For what it's worth I agree with you though...

[Aithos]

 kjbowen, on 30 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

 gopherguts, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I've played nearly every category of club on the market within the last two months...I was in multiple golf shops literally dozens of times hitting things on different days.  I don't think there was a single set I didn't hit at least 2-3 times, I looked with launch monitor and without.  I ended up with blades because I got the best numbers with them, I felt the most confident with them and I liked the look/feel the best.  The pro who fit me agreed with my opinion and the Taylormade Rep thought I was stupid because I'm not a single digit and suggested R11 irons (go figure).  It was the best fit for *my* game, no one elses.  I don't go around telling every guy who plays Ping g20s to stop hitting shovels and buy some blades...it's RUDE.  Telling me that only pros are good enough to play blades and that I'm stupid and throwing strokes away is *RUDE* not to mention wrong.  I'm tired of both sides making ignorant blanket statements for or against what *they* prefer.

And here I thought *I* was a salesman's/store owner's worst nightmare !!!

So what blades did you buy ? Oops, never mind, just looked at your sig. MP 69's. Nice.

And what's your handicap ?

If you are a double digit hc and you think blades are the best fit for your game you may have gotten hit with an errant tee shot. A lot of tour pros game cavity or players irons and you think shooting mid 80s or higher that blades will help.. Not only will you look like a tool when your posting a 94 on your ghin but you will not improve. Im sorry I know you won't like to hear this but to play a blade at your skill level is absurd. I really hope you rethink it but if you don't good luck

I'm done talking to you, you haven't understood a single thing I've said.  Clearly  you think that a handicap gives you an accurate measure of every aspect of someones game and I'm tired of arguing against stupid.

I think everyone in here needs to take two classes:  physics, and statistics.  Until you come back here with proof that you received a passing grade in college levels of both, I don't want to hear anymore of your opinions.  You're wrong.

[Wknd_Warrior]

While I'm at it it you want to hear about ego,

you guys spending hundreds of dollars on special shafts, fittings, new clubs every year, like your game is worth fitting a set of clubs around and getting a specific flex point to optimize your amateur swing.  Face it, the golf industry has become a licence to print money, as funny as stubborn SOBs hacks like me refusing to stop playing blades, is you guys who invest in a swing that 5 minutes reading golf digest would evolve you beyond if you bothered to try.  But you know your swing is perfect you just need the exrta forgiveness cause you can't hit 500 balls a day, when really you use the extra wiggle room to swing twice as hard as you should so you can get the same distances that the pros get and convince yourself you're on their level, just not as practised, dream on...

[Wknd_Warrior]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Oh, I don't care to justify my purchase with a handicap.  

Didn't mean you, just all the comments about "face it, you shouldn't play blades" get me going.

[Aithos]

 Wknd_Warrior, on 30 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Oh, I don't care to justify my purchase with a handicap.  

Didn't mean you, just all the comments about "face it, you shouldn't play blades" get me going.

I know, me too.  It seriously bothers me when people don't understand what an abritrary number means.  A handicap is an arbitrary number, it tells you literally nothing about a persons golf game beyond the "estimation" of what score they are likely to shoot.  People like to make assumptions based on arbitrary numbers and in the logical world, that's as stupid as it gets.  There isn't any argument whatsoever that can make it different.  You can have two scratch golfers who have WILDLY different strengths and weaknesses, one who should play blades and one who should play SGI.  God forbid the same be true of the pros!!!

I mean seriously, you don't think there are 10+ handicaps who strike the ball better than you high and mighty single digits?  Because you're a 7 you think you are superior in every aspect of the game to a 17?  No wonder you're not a + handicap.  You're making stupid assumptions and aren't even able to be honest with yourself about your strengths/weaknesses, you think equipment solves the problems in your game.  News flash:  It doesn't.  Most of improvement in this game comes from practice and mental focus.  There isn't a secret grip, or a swing tip or a club/shaft/settting that will magically make you better.  TIME will make you better, assuming (and this is a big one) that you utilize it properly.  Nothing else, at least not in any significant form...

Why do people seriously not get it?  Obviously I'm not refering to *you* when I say "you don't think"...that's a hypothetical you for those of you not familiar with the other uses of the word...

[kjbowen]

I'm gonna game 3-pw all tour striker.. Any thoughts guys what to expect lol

[Aithos]

 kjbowen, on 30 April 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

I'm gonna game 3-pw all tour striker.. Any thoughts guys what to expect lol

Depends on your ballstriking ability......

[anth]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

 anth, on 30 April 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

What proof exists that GI irons don't have the same dispersion or accuracy as blades? A shot out of the middle is out of the middle regardless.

An off center hit will result in a straighter shot with a GI iron than if it was struck with a blade.  That's what perimeter weighting does.  Less twisting of the club face equals a straighter shot.

If you want to play blades then go ahead, but don't tell me they're straighter or more accurate.

To the OP, I used to play the J33 and they were great clubs. I then went looking for more forgiveness and eventually settled on some Adams A4. I think Adams make the best irons in this category. GI technology in clubs with player appearance - you just have to find the ones that best suit your eye.

I don't practice as much as I used to prior to the birth of my son but I have managed to reduce my index over the last 12 months. Is it because of the extra forgiveness? Maybe, maybe not.

But I feel much better about turning up every week without having gone to the range and knowing that I don't have to be close to perfect to post a good score.

Countless studies show that blades are more accurate and have tighter dispersion, it's a fact.  The weighting you remove from the center to add forgiveness lowers accuracy and thus dispersion.  The same reason blades are less good on mishits is the same reason they are better on good ones.

People who argue in favor of GI irons like to pretend you add forgiveness without losing anything and that just isn't true.  There are good and bad things about both and there are groups of players for *both* types of clubs.  One isn't "better" than another because everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in their golf game, another fact.

As for the person who said that offset isn't a big deal and any good player should be able to work around it:  do you really think fighting the design of the club and compensating in your swing is a good idea?  That's a terrible idea, lets mess up our swings to fight a club designed for someone who can't get their clubface into the proper position at impact?  Really?  ...

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that things became fact because you say they are.  Care to post a link to any of those countless studies?

Actually, don't bother.  You win the argument because you said so and we're all stupid.

[Roddy1]

I've been a plus and with a little more tome to play and practice I would be now. I have found that playing a GI iron (Not super GI) trends to a lower average score for me. The down side to them for me is I seem to get worse flyers with them. While since my miss is always towards the toe the give me a much better chance a having a putt for my next shot on miss hit approach shots. I played blades back during my college team days and all the way up until ping Eyes came out. I've switched back and forth and usally have some sort of players clubs in the stable along with my GI clubs.

Like some have said you can't judge a players strengths and weakness from the handicap. I would do as I have and hit a lot of balls with a lot of differnt clubs and play the clubs you hit the best or the maybe enven the ones you enjoy playing with. Few of us are playing for high stakes anyway.

Edited by Roddy1, 30 April 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Aithos]

 anth, on 30 April 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

 anth, on 30 April 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

What proof exists that GI irons don't have the same dispersion or accuracy as blades? A shot out of the middle is out of the middle regardless.

An off center hit will result in a straighter shot with a GI iron than if it was struck with a blade.  That's what perimeter weighting does.  Less twisting of the club face equals a straighter shot.

If you want to play blades then go ahead, but don't tell me they're straighter or more accurate.

To the OP, I used to play the J33 and they were great clubs. I then went looking for more forgiveness and eventually settled on some Adams A4. I think Adams make the best irons in this category. GI technology in clubs with player appearance - you just have to find the ones that best suit your eye.

I don't practice as much as I used to prior to the birth of my son but I have managed to reduce my index over the last 12 months. Is it because of the extra forgiveness? Maybe, maybe not.

But I feel much better about turning up every week without having gone to the range and knowing that I don't have to be close to perfect to post a good score.

Countless studies show that blades are more accurate and have tighter dispersion, it's a fact.  The weighting you remove from the center to add forgiveness lowers accuracy and thus dispersion.  The same reason blades are less good on mishits is the same reason they are better on good ones.

People who argue in favor of GI irons like to pretend you add forgiveness without losing anything and that just isn't true.  There are good and bad things about both and there are groups of players for *both* types of clubs.  One isn't "better" than another because everyone has different strengths and weaknesses in their golf game, another fact.

As for the person who said that offset isn't a big deal and any good player should be able to work around it:  do you really think fighting the design of the club and compensating in your swing is a good idea?  That's a terrible idea, lets mess up our swings to fight a club designed for someone who can't get their clubface into the proper position at impact?  Really?  ...

I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that things became fact because you say they are.  Care to post a link to any of those countless studies?

Actually, don't bother.  You win the argument because you said so and we're all stupid.

Ok, look.  Most of the Iron Byron studies are done by club makers and are not readily available to the average person.  I've seen them linked in this forum before, go ahead and search for them yourself.   Here is an article I found that has relevant information but he doesn't link the study:  http://www.oobgolf.c...b_Epiphany.html

As far as the physics are concerned here is the basic idea:  The more mass concentrated behind the part of the clubface where the ball makes contact the better it will fly (distance) and the better it will transfer energy (accuracy).  The entire concept of a blade iron is to focus as much mass as possibly behind a small sweet spot on the club, so that a player who can consistently strike that small part of the club will get the best possible results.  And for the record, a blade today is not as aggressively constructed as blades from the 70s...which is how you get a blade that is more forgiving.  When you have a cavity back you are removing weight from behind the sweet spot in order to place it around the perimeter of the club so that on off-center hits you get more forgiveness.  This means that your ball will not fly as far on perfect hits, but will fly much further on off-center hits.  It also means that the dispersion will not be as tight because the mass does not transfer energy to the ball as effectively as the blade will.  

What you can take from this is a couple things:  1) someone who can't consistently hit the sweet spot will do poorly with blades.  2) someone who DOES consistently hit the sweet spot will get worse results with GI irons.  Which goes back to the whole reason I argue that each person needs to evaluate their own game.  I'm sorry, but I get really tired of repeating this stuff.  It's basic club design and physics, you can't argue against it.  It is a fact, ask Tom Wishon about it...I'm sure he can tell you in much fancier terms.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm not trying to talk down to anyone, I just want people to understand.  Some people seriously think blades are impossible to hit, they aren't.



edit: for full clarification...when I say hit the sweet spot I mean exactly that.  Not really close, not nearly, I mean hit it.  Dead in the nuts.  Those are the 1-2 points above that I mentioned.

Edited by Aithos, 30 April 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[gvogel]

I'm glad that Ben Curtis won with AP1's.  That's what I play.

I have some AP2's with identical shafts, and sometimes I practice with them.  I will concede that they feel a tiny bit better.

However, when I play I like to hit the ball as far and straight as I am capable.  AP1's help me do that, and score a bit better.  I will confess that I prefer an AP2 PW, and sometimes a 9-iron, in the set with which I play.  From 4-iron to 7- iron, AP1's are simply easier to hit longer and straighter.

[FATC1TY]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

 kjbowen, on 30 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

If you are a double digit hc and you think blades are the best fit for your game you may have gotten hit with an errant tee shot. A lot of tour pros game cavity or players irons and you think shooting mid 80s or higher that blades will help.. Not only will you look like a tool when your posting a 94 on your ghin but you will not improve. Im sorry I know you won't like to hear this but to play a blade at your skill level is absurd. I really hope you rethink it but if you don't good luck

I'm done talking to you, you haven't understood a single thing I've said.  Clearly  you think that a handicap gives you an accurate measure of every aspect of someones game and I'm tired of arguing against stupid.

I think everyone in here needs to take two classes:  physics, and statistics.  Until you come back here with proof that you received a passing grade in college levels of both, I don't want to hear anymore of your opinions.  You're wrong.

I have no hose in ya'll pissing matching, but... A handicap DOES give someone a pretty close measure of someones ability in the game. There's a reason it's used in  just about ever competitive format of golf. Everyone here claims they would be "really low" if they just could straighten their driver out.. Well guess what.. Thats probably not the case.. Oh, if I could just hit 3 more GIR, I'd be a single digit. Yeah, I bet.

Don't get upset about it. Play whatever the hell you want, but there IS a reason certain clubs are marketed for low/mid/high handicaps. OEM's and fitters don't just make this stuff up to talk people out of all the cool, or innovative stuff. You'll never hear a fitter or pro tell you to skip over the GI stuff, you are too good to need forgiveness. I'd laugh at them and walk out of the store. Who the hell thinks they don't need help in this silly game?!

[FATC1TY]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

 Wknd_Warrior, on 30 April 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Oh, I don't care to justify my purchase with a handicap.  

Didn't mean you, just all the comments about "face it, you shouldn't play blades" get me going.

I know, me too.  It seriously bothers me when people don't understand what an abritrary number means.  A handicap is an arbitrary number, it tells you literally nothing about a persons golf game beyond the "estimation" of what score they are likely to shoot.  People like to make assumptions based on arbitrary numbers and in the logical world, that's as stupid as it gets.  There isn't any argument whatsoever that can make it different.  You can have two scratch golfers who have WILDLY different strengths and weaknesses, one who should play blades and one who should play SGI.  God forbid the same be true of the pros!!!

I mean seriously, you don't think there are 10+ handicaps who strike the ball better than you high and mighty single digits?  Because you're a 7 you think you are superior in every aspect of the game to a 17?  No wonder you're not a + handicap.  You're making stupid assumptions and aren't even able to be honest with yourself about your strengths/weaknesses, you think equipment solves the problems in your game.  News flash:  It doesn't.  Most of improvement in this game comes from practice and mental focus.  There isn't a secret grip, or a swing tip or a club/shaft/settting that will magically make you better.  TIME will make you better, assuming (and this is a big one) that you utilize it properly.  Nothing else, at least not in any significant form...

Why do people seriously not get it?  Obviously I'm not refering to *you* when I say "you don't think"...that's a hypothetical you for those of you not familiar with the other uses of the word...

You keep harping on the "aspect" portion of the game... A handicap is pretty much a given number based on your finishing score, I agree with that.. But, you keep justifying it all with calling out certain "aspects". A 7 is superior to a 17, because he scores better. Golf is about scoring. No one comes in after a round, and comments on how awesome they struck the ball today, if they only didn't have to hit 3 off just about every tee, and 3 putt every damn green, for a lean 108.

Sure, you might be a helluva ball striker, and could justify any club made in your eyes. I'll give you that. But most of the time a crap swing, is a crap swing. I don't know any guy who kills his irons and can't hit a driver or hybrid or 3 wood off the tee just as well. We all have good and bad days, but no one is puring iron after iron, and slicing drivers all over the map. Bad swings don't care what club you are holding.

[Aithos]

 FATC1TY, on 30 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

You keep harping on the "aspect" portion of the game... A handicap is pretty much a given number based on your finishing score, I agree with that.. But, you keep justifying it all with calling out certain "aspects". A 7 is superior to a 17, because he scores better. Golf is about scoring. No one comes in after a round, and comments on how awesome they struck the ball today, if they only didn't have to hit 3 off just about every tee, and 3 putt every damn green, for a lean 108.

Sure, you might be a helluva ball striker, and could justify any club made in your eyes. I'll give you that. But most of the time a crap swing, is a crap swing. I don't know any guy who kills his irons and can't hit a driver or hybrid or 3 wood off the tee just as well. We all have good and bad days, but no one is puring iron after iron, and slicing drivers all over the map. Bad swings don't care what club you are holding.

You're still missing the point.  A handicap will give you an estimate of the score they "might" shoot every round (really most people don't shoot their handicap more than 30% of the time).  My point was that knowing that number doesn't tell you a single damn thing about how they got there.  If you've never seen someone wild off the tee who could hit irons well then you must be playing a different game than me.  Here, let me post my last round for you:





What you should see there is that I missed 9 fairways right, one OB and most of the rest in a terrible position.  The two I hit left were split, the first was ok the second might as well have been lost where I ended up.  I also hit 4 sand shots only 1 of which I got up and down.  I putted the ball ok but my driver KILLED me.  I'm struggling off the tee MIGHTILY right now.  I hadn't been tracking fairways because this sort of graphic is depressing and I'm trying to get my head AND swing right and it doesn't help.  I think I figured some things out today, we'll see on the range tomorrow after work and then this weekend when I'm playing in a best ball.  

I'm not a legendary ballstriker by any means, but I had 1 shot in that round that I hit poorly enough for it to sting my hands with my blades.  That was the first time in the 10-12 rounds I have played since I got them it's happened.  My miss, is thin.  Not toe, not heel.  I made a bad swing towards the end of my round because it was my first time walking 18 and by the end both my calf and upper thighs were so cramped I could hardly walk.  I limped to my car after that.  So once again, let's stop assuming you know anything about my game based on a stupid number.  AND AGAIN, you're welcome to come play a round with me.

[FATC1TY]

I'm not assuming anything about your game, you are posting your score card. By the looks of your score card, it appears your playing an easy course based on rating AND yardage. Couple that, and your club selection, you should move up some tee's. You should also step back and study it a bit.

You used your driver on 7 holes, and hit one fairways. I'd agree you need to work on the driver. But thats not why your score is so high.

But you missed one with a 4 iron, and hybrid and 3 wood... Not to mention, the par 3's which you don't need to use driver, you missed all the greens but one. +8 on the par 3's doesn't seem like your driver is killing you.

It appears you only had 1 penalty, so I'm assuming it was a drop or re tee. That would assume those +3's on the par 4's would mean that you couldn't not only recover from the tee shot, you still could not hit the green.

No offense. I'm not some super low handicap. I hover around a mid/low single digit, and I know my swing is not good enough all the time, and some forgiveness is a welcome addition to my bag this year in my 712 AP2's. Your swing can't be consistent at all, minute to minute, at an 18 handicap, it's just not. You might hit it "only" thin, but it's still not "in the sweetspot". You still could benefit slightly from a more forgiving iron, no? What would you lose? The one perfect shot you hit to hit the ONLY GIR, might fly too high, or too far? People who went from blades to a CB or something claim distance.. Maybe you never hit the ball perfect enough, and now gained some distance because you are getting more from it?

But if you were a good ball striker, it would transfer to your driver, or better yet, at that meager 6250 yards, if you carry a 3 iron, which is like a super forgiving 3 iron by the way, you could hit that off every single tee, and if you strike the ball well enough, you would be able to at worse, bogey every single par 4 and 5, and par the par 3's, putter working equally as well.

Bottomline is.. If your confident in your ability, play whatever you want. A forgiving iron wouldn't hurt you at all. You'd lose NOTHING switching to one, accuracy or whatever junk you were saying. Sure it might not look as cool, or feel as awesome, but when it gets down to it.. Was your 95, really satisfying, or did you get more satisfaction from playing a blade while throwing up a 95? I don't hear any of the top tier players complaining that their CB's or whatever aren't as accurate.

If you had fun, then thats all that matters.

Edited by FATC1TY, 30 April 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Aithos]

 FATC1TY, on 30 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

I'm not assuming anything about your game, you are posting your score card. By the looks of your score card, it appears your playing an easy course based on rating AND yardage. Couple that, and your club selection, you should move up some tee's. You should also step back and study it a bit.

You used your driver on 7 holes, and hit one fairways. I'd agree you need to work on the driver. But thats not why your score is so high.

But you missed one with a 4 iron, and hybrid and 3 wood... Not to mention, the par 3's which you don't need to use driver, you missed all the greens but one. +8 on the par 3's doesn't seem like your driver is killing you.

It appears you only had 1 penalty, so I'm assuming it was a drop or re tee. That would assume those +3's on the par 4's would mean that you couldn't not only recover from the tee shot, you still could not hit the green.

No offense. I'm not some super low handicap. I hover around a mid/low single digit, and I know my swing is not good enough all the time, and some forgiveness is a welcome addition to my bag this year in my 712 AP2's. Your swing can't be consistent at all, minute to minute, at an 18 handicap, it's just not. You might hit it "only" thin, but it's still not "in the sweetspot". You still could benefit slightly from a more forgiving iron, no? What would you lose? The one perfect shot you hit to hit the ONLY GIR, might fly too high, or too far? People who went from blades to a CB or something claim distance.. Maybe you never hit the ball perfect enough, and now gained some distance because you are getting more from it?

But if you were a good ball striker, it would transfer to your driver, or better yet, at that meager 6250 yards, if you carry a 3 iron, which is like a super forgiving 3 iron by the way, you could hit that off every single tee, and if you strike the ball well enough, you would be able to at worse, bogey every single par 4 and 5, and par the par 3's, putter working equally as well.

Bottomline is.. If your confident in your ability, play whatever you want. A forgiving iron wouldn't hurt you at all. You'd lose NOTHING switching to one, accuracy or whatever junk you were saying. Sure it might not look as cool, or feel as awesome, but when it gets down to it.. Was your 95, really satisfying, or did you get more satisfaction from playing a blade while throwing up a 95? I don't hear any of the top tier players complaining that their CB's or whatever aren't as accurate.

If you had fun, then thats all that matters.

I get where you're coming from, but what you can't see from that card is where those tee shots landed.  My course may not be long or have crazy elevation, but it does have tight fairways.  There are serious trees both left and right on this course and missing means 1-2 shots just to get back in the fairway depending where you land.  Several of those big numbers came from holes I drove it over a road onto another hole with two sets of trees between me and my hole.  Trust me when I say that my chip outs are not the same as being able to hit a full iron shot.  I'm still struggling with keeping my irons low for punch outs.

As far as the par 3s:  I hit my 3 hybrid a bit short on number 4, made a really bad chip and 3 putted.  Number 9 I hit the green and bounced long into a bunker that took 2 shots to get out of, 13 I hit and 3 putted again, 16 is 230ish yards uphill with a wind, I was 5 yards short and duffed a chip, and 17 was my one bad shot that landed in the front greenside bunker where I plugged and barely got onto the lip where I then had an awkward stance for a chip to the green.  My score on those holes wasn't due to my iron shot, it was due to my poor chipping/sand shots/3 putts.  There wasn't a single bad full iron shot in the bunch...

What I'm getting at is that you're still making assumptions without knowing what went into those scores.  I hit a tee shot right on number 7, hit a tree trying to get back on the fairway...put myself right behind another tree.  Hit a low hanging branch and end up backwards 5 yards, then chip out and I'm laying 4 with my first clear shot at the green...I knock it on and 1 putt for 6.  My iron striking was fine, my drive and recovery chipping was not.  I could recount for you every shot in that round, I have a very vivid memory of the way I make my holes and I can usually remember every shot until the next round I play.  I have every confidence in the fact that I know my game...

With that being said, I do appreciate that you're at least being civil in the discussion instead of calling me stupid or saying that I must have been hit by a wayward tee-shot.  Other people could take notice of how you discuss things and try to do the same...

Edited by Aithos, 30 April 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[gopherguts]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

 FATC1TY, on 30 April 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

You keep harping on the "aspect" portion of the game... A handicap is pretty much a given number based on your finishing score, I agree with that.. But, you keep justifying it all with calling out certain "aspects". A 7 is superior to a 17, because he scores better. Golf is about scoring. No one comes in after a round, and comments on how awesome they struck the ball today, if they only didn't have to hit 3 off just about every tee, and 3 putt every damn green, for a lean 108.

Sure, you might be a helluva ball striker, and could justify any club made in your eyes. I'll give you that. But most of the time a crap swing, is a crap swing. I don't know any guy who kills his irons and can't hit a driver or hybrid or 3 wood off the tee just as well. We all have good and bad days, but no one is puring iron after iron, and slicing drivers all over the map. Bad swings don't care what club you are holding.

You're still missing the point.  A handicap will give you an estimate of the score they "might" shoot every round (really most people don't shoot their handicap more than 30% of the time).  My point was that knowing that number doesn't tell you a single damn thing about how they got there.  If you've never seen someone wild off the tee who could hit irons well then you must be playing a different game than me.  Here, let me post my last round for you:





What you should see there is that I missed 9 fairways right, one OB and most of the rest in a terrible position.  The two I hit left were split, the first was ok the second might as well have been lost where I ended up.  I also hit 4 sand shots only 1 of which I got up and down.  I putted the ball ok but my driver KILLED me.  I'm struggling off the tee MIGHTILY right now.  I hadn't been tracking fairways because this sort of graphic is depressing and I'm trying to get my head AND swing right and it doesn't help.  I think I figured some things out today, we'll see on the range tomorrow after work and then this weekend when I'm playing in a best ball.  

I'm not a legendary ballstriker by any means, but I had 1 shot in that round that I hit poorly enough for it to sting my hands with my blades.  That was the first time in the 10-12 rounds I have played since I got them it's happened.  My miss, is thin.  Not toe, not heel.  I made a bad swing towards the end of my round because it was my first time walking 18 and by the end both my calf and upper thighs were so cramped I could hardly walk.  I limped to my car after that.  So once again, let's stop assuming you know anything about my game based on a stupid number.  AND AGAIN, you're welcome to come play a round with me.

So what IS your point then ?

The OP posted

 scarywoody, on 29 April 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

I am a  6.5 hdcp and I have been using the J33 cavity backs (S300) for the last  few years.   I am a sweeper, my ball flight is low-mid, and my miss is a  push to the right.

I was curious if any low cappers have  switched from players irons to game improvement irons and what the  results were.  I hit my irons good, but I am wondering if switching to a  more forgiving iron would improve my GIR.  Maybe more consistent  distance control with the increased forgiveness.

Any thoughts?  thanks

and apparently you (among others as well of course) have scared woody away (<--- See what I did there ?  (apologies to Craig Ferguson ))

And no, a handicap does NOT give you "an estimate of the score they "might" shoot every round." A handicap is an ESTIMATE of your potential BEST score (differential) so it's to be expected that people don't "shoot their handicap" 30% if the time.


So what IS your point after all this anyway ? I know MY point is, that except for the very best players, (and yes, BY HANDICAP is close enough), golfers will play better, i.e. SCORE LOWER, by playing GI clubs instead of blades.

SCRATCH golfers don't hit the sweetspot of their irons nearly all the time. In general, as "FAT" indicated, as your handicap goes UP so does the frequency of hitting the sweetspot.

You can spin it any way you want about your driver getting you in all sorts of trouble but that scorecard probably calculates to approximately an index of around 24 or so, not the 17 you claim nor the 10 you used to be and presumably are aspiring to become again. So are you suggesting that the 1 iron shot that "stung" and the one you made a bad swing on late in the round were the ONLY 2 you missed the sweetspot ? That sweespot that, by your own admission, is so small ?

Tell you what. Prove all of us wrong. Go to the driving range, warm up, put impact tape on your favorite iron and hit about half a dozen shots. Take a picture and upload it and let's take a look. Now granted, hitting the same club 6 times in a row should be to your advantage, but that's OK, let's see it anyway.

Then do the same thing changing clubs on each swing, closer to what would happen on the course.

Oh, and BTW, make sure to (find and) mark the sweetspot with say, a red pen as it MAY not be in the exact center of the clubface(s).

[plus8]

Amazing. What a seriously amazing thread.  This started out being somebody asking a couple of valid questions about moving to more forgiving irons - and now we have - what - a flippin' scorecard? Is this a Wilson Staff commercial?? Done with this thread!  Don't need physics lessons (I also went to c-o-l-l-e-g-e), and don't need lectures form an apparently 25 capper.  Dude, I have been a member here for years, and rare it is that this caustic thread evolves. Thanks for that.

You guys have fun.

Edited by plus8, 01 May 2012 - 05:34 AM.

[HateTheHighDraw]

Technology has gotten "better" yet handicaps have stayed the same.  Think long and hard about that for a minute.  The ONLY benefit I see in SGI clubs is that it keeps people in the game longer and limits frustration.  

But I'm sorry, you don't "get better" with SGI irons when you are mishitting everything and don't know it.  Yea, your score may be better in the short run, but your swing is not getting better.  Your central nervous system needs physical, tactile, and audible feedback to make corrections.  If you smack that G15 out on the toe, you won't know it so your CNS won't make the proper correction.  

Until the early 90s everyone learned with blades!

[stateman]

 h0ss66, on 01 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Technology has gotten "better" yet handicaps have stayed the same.  Think long and hard about that for a minute.  The ONLY benefit I see in SGI clubs is that it keeps people in the game longer and limits frustration.  


Until the early 90s everyone learned with blades!

I will have to say that while I still agree with my original statements (look back if you need), these 2 quotes are the most valid reason for playing blades or muscle back that I see through these 2 pages of ranting.

[FATC1TY]

Of course everyone back then had to learn with unforgiving blades. It was THE only choice.

Point is, handicap hasn't gone down I believe, because most golfers don't keep an official USGA handicap, not to mention, golf is pretty much for the masses, a randomly played sport/game. There are few, like us, who play often enough, practice enough and take it serious enough to want to go lower. Not only that, but I think MORE people are playing the game on average than back then. Kind of dilutes the who pool, so to speak.

That said- Course weren't as long back then, and technology in the clubs, and balls has made the game longer, and more fun for the "weekend chopper".

Point is.. Play whatever you want. If you want to be the kind of guy who justifies clubs in any form and fashion, and you are having fun scoring whatever scores with them, have at it. Like wise, if you were a + cap, and a sound swing, and wanted to use the biggest SGI clubs ever, by all means, if you like it, whats wrong with that?

The only thing out of place here, is the justification based on being a great ball striker, but a terrible scorer. Those do go hand in hand.

[Aithos]

 Aithos, on 30 April 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

GI irons don't have the same dispersion or accuracy as players/blades, so if you strike them well you won't really pick up any GIR and you might actually find that your GIR go down.  GI irons are better for people without good ballstriking and distance control.  

Too many people think equipment is a way to a better golf score, it's not.  If you want more GIR then figure out what part of your game is leaking and work on it.  Personally I know my problem is the driver, I'm losing it right again after not slicing for years (and starting the year with a duck hook) and its causing me all manner of problems.  But a new driver isn't my solution, I'm not even adjusting it yet (R11)...it's a swing problem...

This was my point, please read it until you understand.  Until then, don't bother saying anything to me.  But just in case you still don't get it:

People with the same handicap can have different strengths and weaknesses in their games, therefore, the OP needs to figure out *what* is causing him to miss GIR.  If it turns out his miss would be improved by switching to GI then that is the right decision, if it turns out it *won't* then it is a waste of both time and money.

My handicap has literally nothing to do with the validity of my reason or logic.  My scorecard was meant to illustrate a point that only an idiot would fail to understand, there are only so many ways I can expain it.  A handicap is a correlation to *overall* skill, not a causal relationship and not an indication of ability with each part of the game.  The better the handicap the more you can logically infer from the number about their game, but the reverse is NOT true.  I've seen friends who would top two irons shots per hole who could drive and putt perfectly well, I've also seen friends who hit irons well who would duff half his chips and 3 putt nearly every hole.  They might both be 30 handicaps but they have wildly different abilities within the game of golf, you can't draw the same conclutsions at 10-20 as you can from 0-5 or 5-10.  I don't care what your handicap is or whether you went to college.

I'm not here to be ridiculed or made fun of because of a handicap I don't have enough rounds in to lower.  I don't appreciate people who ascribe knowledge to their golf ability, you might be a +2 but it doesn't make you smart or intelligent.  I've tried to remain civil and continue to use reason, but no one in this thread has had any logical argument against my point.  They would rather question my golf game or make blanket statements.  I'm not advocating blades, I'm advocating intelligent decision making and not wasting time or money.  

As I said in my quote above, too many people think equipment is the cause or cure to their golf game.  It isn't.  I know where my score comes from, I know my game.  I know to get better I need to work at it.  You can't buy a golf game.  I'm saying the same damn thing good players do, but because I'm a 17 I can't be right?  Piss off.

Edit:  to the post above me, I never claimed to be a great ball striker or a poor scorer.  I never even tried to justify my purchase...in fact I specifically said I don't need to.  No one in this thread is advocating the OP playing blades.  I'm playing what I want, what I feel is best for my game and what my pro fit me into.

Edited by Aithos, 01 May 2012 - 09:50 AM.