71 replies to this topic

[ismashedit]

I don't see any of Bubba's coaches coming out and saying he's a liar.  You know that this would be a perfect time for controversy - right after a win at the Masters.

It's all good.

[monkeynaut]

ismashedit, on 28 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

I don't see any of Bubba's coaches coming out and saying he's a liar.  You know that this would be a perfect time for controversy - right after a win at the Masters.

It's all good.

+1000

[gopherguts]

monkeynaut, on 28 April 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

gopherguts, on 28 April 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Would we recognize what band you play in ?
Would we recognize what TOUR you play on ?
It's one thing to make yourself into a "musician" or a "golfer" without taking lessons but to do it and get to the TOP of the heap is quite another thing.
These exceptions, like Bubba, are few and FAR between. I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to "reach for the stars" to do it Bubba's way.

Quote

What Bubba does is impressive and is probably possible BECAUSE he didn't  have somebody imposing their method on him.

That's quite an assumption. Had he taken lessons he would have learned to move the ball both ways and surely, from there, he could have become creative as he WANTED to be, no ?

Bubba, who just won the Masters, doesn't meet your expectations for a pro golfer?  Umm, I'm guessing you've never watched the guy play because he does move it both ways.   Cuts/Draws/Hooks/Slices whatever he wants.

Where on earth did I say (or imply) THAT ???  

And what part of "These exceptions, like Bubba, are few and FAR between." is not clear to you ?

[continued]

[Golf Dawg]

You guys have seen that SWING right?  It's most definitely a swing only a mother could love...

That should be proof enough he's never had a lesson.  To me, "coaching" and "lessons" are two totally different things.  

Either way, I admire the hell out of how he plays, and wish that I had been able to figure the game out the same way.

[gopherguts]

monkeynaut, on 28 April 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

What Bubba does is impressive and is probably possible BECAUSE he didn't  have somebody imposing their method on him.

That's quite an assumption. Had he taken lessons he would have learned to move the ball both ways and surely, from there, he could have become creative as he WANTED to be, no ?

It's not "quite an assumption." It's an observation based on what  he  does versus the guys who are addicted to swing coach  method.  Anybody who watches golf though will tell you. Bubba can do  what he can do because he does it his own way.  He just sees/feels/moves  different.  His ball flight and approach are a throwback to guys who  came up differently.  Just like somebody else mentioned Trevino

Statistically, lessons or no, the odds are against anybody going for  it  Bubba's way  or taking lessons from the age of 5.  There are  thousands of  people  trying to qualify for the US Open alone, not  counting  mini-tours,  college play, Amateur Tournaments.  Making it at  THE TOP  level rarely  happens.

Your implication is that if he actually TOOK  lessons his teachers would inhibit his desire to move the ball around a  LOT. While I DO think they would discourage such large movements of the  ball they certainly WOULD teach him to move it both ways - how FAR he  would then do it would be up to him, no ?

And "statistically" ??? Stop trying to  deflect. The point is while the odds against ANYBODY "making it" are pretty long  in ANY sport the odds are MUCH longer for someone not "professionally"  taught vs. someone self taught.

Shall we try to find out how many touring pros took lessons vs. how many nevr have ?

Edited by gopherguts, 28 April 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[monkeynaut]

gopherguts, on 28 April 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

monkeynaut, on 28 April 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Quote

What Bubba does is impressive and is probably possible BECAUSE he didn't  have somebody imposing their method on him.

That's quite an assumption. Had he taken lessons he would have learned to move the ball both ways and surely, from there, he could have become creative as he WANTED to be, no ?

It's not "quite an assumption." It's an observation based on what  he  does versus the guys who are addicted to swing coach  method.  Anybody who watches golf though will tell you. Bubba can do  what he can do because he does it his own way.  He just sees/feels/moves  different.  His ball flight and approach are a throwback to guys who  came up differently.  Just like somebody else mentioned Trevino

Statistically, lessons or no, the odds are against anybody going for  it  Bubba's way  or taking lessons from the age of 5.  There are  thousands of  people  trying to qualify for the US Open alone, not  counting  mini-tours,  college play, Amateur Tournaments.  Making it at  THE TOP  level rarely  happens.

Your implication is that if he actually TOOK  lessons his teachers would inhibit his desire to move the ball around a  LOT. While I DO think they would discourage such large movements of the  ball they certainly WOULD teach him to move it both ways - how FAR he  would then do it would be up to him, no ?

And "statistically" ??? Stop trying to  deflect. The point is while the odds against ANYBODY "making it" are pretty long  in ANY sport the odds are MUCH longer for someone not "professionally"  taught vs. someone self taught.

Shall we try to find out how many touring pros took lessons vs. how many nevr have ?

"Deflecting?" My point was that he plays the way he does BECAUSE he didn't take lessons or have “somebody imposing their method on him.”  

You responded with “While I DO think they would discourage such large movements of the ball they certainly WOULD teach him to move it both ways.”  The first part of that makes my point exactly.  The second part indicates you think Bubba can’t move the ball both ways.  
BUBBA MOVES IT BOTH WAYS.  See his driver off the deck on the 18^th at the 2011 Hyundai Tournament of Champions and THE Hook at the Masters.  Am I on crazy pills? Or can Bubba move it BOTH WAYS?  Somebody answer that question for me.

You also deflected with the idea that people shouldn’t try and go self-taught.  Which isn’t the point of the post.  The point is that BUBBA did it and his style of play comes from no lessons.  

My point was that people can teach themselves to do things.  It’s not unthinkable that Bubba could’ve gotten where he is on his own.  Unlikely? Obviously.  But obviously POSSIBLE.  You turned it into a referendum on the masses trying to reach the TOP of the Heap, ignoring that the post was hypothesizing on ONE GUY.  (I simply answered that point of yours.)  It seems to me that you actually agree on that ONE GUY but you also want to suggest that he would’ve been better with lessons.  While you may feel a teacher would’ve made him better, a teacher may have also ruined him.  BUT it doesn’t matter. He’s on Tour.  He’s got a Major. He makes golf exciting.  He did it without a teacher.

Continue if you must but it doesn’t seem like you’re really disagreeing with what I said, outside of the insistence that Bubba can’t work the ball both ways and could have with a teacher.  I’m sure there are others who will disagree with that.  

[gopherguts]

monkeynaut, on 28 April 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

"Deflecting?" My point was that he plays the way he does BECAUSE he didn't take lessons or have "somebody imposing their method on him."

Yes, deflecting. That's what you did by telling us with how hard it is for ANYBODY to make it on tour when the issue is a self-taught player (Bubba of course) making it on tour.

As mentioned a teacher would have taught him how to move it both ways - once he learned that it would be totally up to HIM (of course) as to how far he wants to move it.

Quote

You responded with "While I DO think they would discourage such large movements of the ball they certainly WOULD teach him to move it both ways."  The first part of that makes my point exactly.  The second part indicates you think Bubba can't move the ball both ways.  

Re-reading that, and to be fair, I can see how you might have thought that but that's not what I meant at all - I am perfectly aware Bubba can move it BOTH ways. (Related to your saying "My point was that he plays the way he does BECAUSE he didn't take lessons or have "somebody imposing their method on him." (see above))

Quote

You also deflected with the idea that people shouldn't try and go self-taught.  Which isn't the point of the post.  The point is that BUBBA did it and his style of play comes from no lessons.

My point was that people can teach themselves to do  things.  It's not unthinkable that Bubba could've gotten where he is on  his own.

How could I be deflecting anything if it wasn't "on point" ? His style of play does NOT come from no lessons, it comes strictly from HIS desire to move the ball around and play all the different shots he likes. Had he HAD lessons he still certainly could have played EXACTLY the same way he does now.

Huh ? He HAS gotten to where he is on his own - I thought that WAS the point ?!?!?!

[Rustynuts]

Does he ever hit hooks with his driver? It seems his driver and fairway woods he resorts to huge cuts to keep it in play. Long irons he cuts too, but with his short clubs he hooks back on line.

[iBanesto]

Close face = Ball hooks.

Open face = Ball slices.

Amazing!

[plus8]

Yeah,  Bubba and his 'dubious' swing.  Seems to work. I dunno about all the internet golfers on this forum who seem to know so much, but I'd bet that if they saw the guy in action, they'd be impressed.  I know this: I've seen many, many golfers who don't have picture perfect swings, who score and score and score.  Amazing, really, that folks can play this game without submitting to some local pro's idea of the 'perfect swing'.

I for one made that mistake (if it is a mistake - probably wasn't in retrospect).  But I spent a season trying to duplicate a teacher's swing, and it never felt totally natural to me. I think a teacher who can look at a swing and work with THAT swing is worth keeping, but they are probably not as available as we'd like to think.  Anyway, I didn't get that from mine.  But what I did get were elements of the swing that I put into my own swing and that made a huge difference in my game.  Things like tempo, and squaring the face, and loving the dirt.  Was that because of the lessons, or in spite of same?  I duno, probably a combination of the lesson elements, my own research, and the 12 million hours I spend on the range practicing approaches, chips, and putts.  I think it's kinda fun nowadays when somebody tells me I should 'fix' my slightly Furyk-esque driver takeaway --- while I'm kicking their ..........) .  
And it's obvious that, by hook or crook, Bubba got those elements right (well, except for maybe the tempo part....). Better than most.  

Bubba. wild, emotional, maybe immature, absolutely pure of heart, flailing at times, and very, very powerful (how can anybody hit a drive that far with what seems like BOTH feet off the ground????). Nah, if you watch Bubba, his swing is home grown. And I believe he has been lucky enough to have coaches and mentors over the years who recognized the pure beauty of his swing and didn't muck it up trying to 'fix' it.

Go, Bubba!  

And for Gawd's sake, unbutton that top button - my wife hates it!

(jeez...)!

[PedronNiall]

plus8, on 29 April 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Yeah,  Bubba and his 'dubious' swing.  Seems to work. I dunno about all the internet golfers on this forum who seem to know so much, but I'd bet that if they saw the guy in action, they'd be impressed.  I know this: I've seen many, many golfers who don't have picture perfect swings, who score and score and score.  Amazing, really, that folks can play this game without submitting to some local pro's idea of the 'perfect swing'.

I for one made that mistake (if it is a mistake - probably wasn't in retrospect).  But I spent a season trying to duplicate a teacher's swing, and it never felt totally natural to me. I think a teacher who can look at a swing and work with THAT swing is worth keeping, but they are probably not as available as we'd like to think.  Anyway, I didn't get that from mine.  But what I did get were elements of the swing that I put into my own swing and that made a huge difference in my game.  Things like tempo, and squaring the face, and loving the dirt.  Was that because of the lessons, or in spite of same?  I duno, probably a combination of the lesson elements, my own research, and the 12 million hours I spend on the range practicing approaches, chips, and putts.  I think it's kinda fun nowadays when somebody tells me I should 'fix' my slightly Furyk-esque driver takeaway --- while I'm kicking their ..........) .  
And it's obvious that, by hook or crook, Bubba got those elements right (well, except for maybe the tempo part....). Better than most.  

Bubba. wild, emotional, maybe immature, absolutely pure of heart, flailing at times, and very, very powerful (how can anybody hit a drive that far with what seems like BOTH feet off the ground????). Nah, if you watch Bubba, his swing is home grown. And I believe he has been lucky enough to have coaches and mentors over the years who recognized the pure beauty of his swing and didn't muck it up trying to 'fix' it.

Go, Bubba!  

And for Gawd's sake, unbutton that top button - my wife hates it!

(jeez...)!

I think a lot of people have trouble figuring out what they can take away from an instructor and what they have to make their own. There's one guy who sees my instructor at least once a week, and it works for him because he literally only started playing about a year and a half ago. The constant reinforcement and his willingness to practice what he's been shown much every day have gotten him a pretty amazing swing. Honestly, all that's holding him back is getting the feel that he needs for his short game.

I have been taking lessons from the same instructor for a bit over a year, averaging a lesson just about every month. When I go back next time, it will be just for short game work. Honestly, he's taught me the majority of what I feel that he can as it relates to setup, hand position, take away and finish. I have to apply them myself. Instructors can't teach you feel, can't tell you when you're using proper grip pressure, can't give you the tempo that is going to be comfortable for you.

In the end, it's no different than college: your professors can only show you the formulas and analytical methods, you have to figure out how to apply them in the real world. In that same vein, though, just as some people teach themselves calculus, or maybe more appropriately how to write award-winning papers and books, some people are just able to understand the golf swing as it works for them simply by observation and practice, without any formal guidance.

[bscinstnct]

Good thing he never did take lessons

It seems that golf teachers have had the ball flight laws wrong for years

Imagine a coach telling him a big draw is hit with a closed face?

Bubba would be fixing the General Lee instead of driving it

Nuff said!

[hbgpagolfpro]

thnknso, on 28 April 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

I agree with Cwing....You don't get to the University of Georgia without some help and just depends on what you call a lesson.

Seve Ballesteros started his professional career as a teenager, and before he ever would've graduated college, won the British Open.  

Bubba's swing is not one that is coached, so any tips or pointers he may have gotten along the way would not have worked for him.

[hbgpagolfpro]

bscinstnct, on 29 April 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Good thing he never did take lessons

It seems that golf teachers have had the ball flight laws wrong for years

Imagine a coach telling him a big draw is hit with a closed face?

Bubba would be fixing the General Lee instead of driving it

Nuff said!

The ball flight laws were only re-written in the last few years, yet Butch had plenty of success with Tiger, and Greg Norman, and Leadbetter had plenty of success with Faldo and Els.  The new scientific data is indeed enlightening, but not the end all, be all of golf instruction.

[bscinstnct]

hbgpagolfpro, on 29 April 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

bscinstnct, on 29 April 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Good thing he never did take lessons

It seems that golf teachers have had the ball flight laws wrong for years

Imagine a coach telling him a big draw is hit with a closed face?

Bubba would be fixing the General Lee instead of driving it

Nuff said!

The ball flight laws were only re-written in the last few years, yet Butch had plenty of success with Tiger, and Greg Norman, and Leadbetter had plenty of success with Faldo and Els.  The new scientific data is indeed enlightening, but not the end all, be all of golf instruction.

I hear ya. No knock on them, they just did not know.

And a great coach is one who keeps a great player doing great things and watches for bad habits.

But plenty of greats never needed a coach after youth

Jack basically saw his coach a couple of times a year I think

[hbgpagolfpro]

bscinstnct, on 29 April 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

hbgpagolfpro, on 29 April 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

bscinstnct, on 29 April 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Good thing he never did take lessons

It seems that golf teachers have had the ball flight laws wrong for years

Imagine a coach telling him a big draw is hit with a closed face?

Bubba would be fixing the General Lee instead of driving it

Nuff said!

The ball flight laws were only re-written in the last few years, yet Butch had plenty of success with Tiger, and Greg Norman, and Leadbetter had plenty of success with Faldo and Els.  The new scientific data is indeed enlightening, but not the end all, be all of golf instruction.

I hear ya. No knock on them, they just did not know.

And a great coach is one who keeps a great player doing great things and watches for bad habits.

But plenty of greats never needed a coach after youth

Jack basically saw his coach a couple of times a year I think

That is how many of the old timers did it.  When they got out of whack, they just went back to the basics, and worked from there.  As it should be.  I tell my students after they have been through my program that I really don't want to see them after that, unless they really get out of whack.

[SurfDuffer]

xabia, on 28 April 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

I don't care about any of this but this treatment of him as a folk hero because he hasn't had lessons is just getting annoying.

All that matters is the dude is a straight up baller with a ton of guts and imagination, how he got there does not matter one bit.

Plus people have you seen or listened to interviews with him? He admitted in his Feherety interview, he doesn't like to listen to people

I don't understand what the big deal is about not having lessons.  People with talent  and the mindset to do it can figure out the full swing on their own.  Its not rocket science.

Learning to perform under pressure is the thing that is most difficult to learn and a golf instructor isn't gonna be much help there anyway.  That's what really separates the tour pros from your local club pros.

[duck hook]

He learned how to work the ball by watching every episode of "The Haney Project", that hank Haney is a freaking genius.

I've heard he also frequently visits the " Secret in the Dirt" website developed by his good buddy Steve Elkington, probably
watched some videos on how to "work" the ball.

[Sean2]

C'mon, we all know how to hook and slice the ball. Bubba just does it when he wants to.

[jmvargas]

it's called natural talent..

[golfpros1]

I never took a lesson that even talked about moving the ball (although I've only taken like 3 lessons ever so), and was hitting draws and fades, low and high, from the time I started playing.  I personally think it's funny people are making such a big deal about him working the ball... it's not that hard to do.  It's like, can you hit a lob and overhand in tennis or ping pong?  It's just having awareness of the clubface and setting up the right way before you swing.  The only thing that makes it interesting is the fact that he hits balls with a lot of movement when it's not necessary.

Edited by golfpros1, 29 April 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[dpwigolfer]

ismashedit, on 28 April 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

I don't see any of Bubba's coaches coming out and saying he's a liar.  You know that this would be a perfect time for controversy - right after a win at the Masters.

It's all good.

exactly

[csiachos]

dpwigolfer, on 28 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Cwing, on 28 April 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I am not sure I believe this. If I recall, he went to high school with two others that play in the PGA and he played in college. To think he never had a lesson
May depend on how one defines a lesson as I would have to believe he has had some kind of help at some point.

you're actually going to doubt that he never took lessons when he seems adamant against any ones help. he said that his dad taught him the grip so call that a lesson if you want. he just plays like a lot of the old golfers where its all about feel

I am a plus one and have never had a lesson, am 37, and started playing only 15 years ago. I know I am nowhere near the pros level, but imagine someone that started at a young age, had the athletic ability and the passion. If is totally possible and we see it on our masters champion

[dlygrisse]

The fact that Bubba never has taken a lesson does not seem unrealistic to me, taking lessons is what screwed Seve and some others up.  

The fact he can work the ball does not surprise me at all, in fact it would surprise me if a self taught player didn't work the ball.  

What does surprise me is now much he can curve it, I started playing golf when balls really spun, no one I knew had graphite and drivers were made of wood...metal was just coming on the scene.  And working the ball was much, much easier to do.  What is amazing is how much he can curve it with modern equipment, I personally know how to curve the ball, but just can't make it bend much any more because of the modern ball.  When I first started playing I had a bad over the top move and would bend it 40 yards left to right, I couldn't do that today if I tried...and I have.  The only thing I can figure is that he hits it so hard he can just compress it more than most people and get more spin.

[dlygrisse]

The fact that Bubba never has taken a lesson does not seem unrealistic to me, taking lessons is what screwed Seve and some others up.  

The fact he can work the ball does not surprise me at all, in fact it would surprise me if a self taught player didn't work the ball.  

What does surprise me is now much he can curve it, I started playing golf when balls really spun, no one I knew had graphite and drivers were made of wood...metal was just coming on the scene.  And working the ball was much, much easier to do.  What is amazing is how much he can curve it with modern equipment, I personally know how to curve the ball, but just can't make it bend much any more because of the modern ball.  When I first started playing I had a bad over the top move and would bend it 40 yards left to right, I couldn't do that today if I tried...and I have.  The only thing I can figure is that he hits it so hard he can just compress it more than most people and get more spin.

[SurfDuffer]

csiachos, on 29 April 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

imagine someone that started at a young age, had the athletic ability and the passion. If is totally possible and we see it on our masters champion

I'm a low handicapper and I've never taken a lesson.  Started late in life but now I'm a golf addict.  I love hitting golf balls.  On the range.  On the course.  It doesn't matter.  I just love hitting golf balls.  High, Low, curving left, curving right.   (Most say I should stop hitting balls and go practice short game and putting)   Now imagine a kid with access to a course with a decent practice facility and a huge drive and determination to be good at this game.  Its not about instructors.  Its about talent and desire.

[Lefty94]

To the original OP. He has said before he had a tree in his back yard. He would take wiffle golf balls and try to curve or hook them around the tree. He would get as close to the tree as he could without hitting it.

Also no he can't hit it straight. He said in post Masters interviews that the shot in the playoff was easy and he was relaxed. If he would have been in the middle of the fairway and he would have had to go straight at the pin that would have been harder and more nerve racking for him.

[tembolo1284]

Q: How did Bubba learn to work the ball if he never took lessons?

A: Lots of experimenting and practice.

[Tony_Ireland]

golfpros1, on 29 April 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

I never took a lesson that even talked about moving the ball (although I've only taken like 3 lessons ever so), and was hitting draws and fades, low and high, from the time I started playing.  I personally think it's funny people are making such a big deal about him working the ball... it's not that hard to do.  It's like, can you hit a lob and overhand in tennis or ping pong?  It's just having awareness of the clubface and setting up the right way before you swing.  The only thing that makes it interesting is the fact that he hits balls with a lot of movement when it's not necessary.

It is a a big deal, we can all cut the ball high and low and draw but not every time,  and in front of millions of people watching too. The man is on another level, he does this day in day out. All these people on here sayin "whats the big deal, we all know how to cut a ball or how to draw a ball" need a reality check! Id like to see some of the heros on here cut a 3iron 240yds with a lot on the line, and land it on the green! Odds o they would f&k it up. Im able to hook a wedge or a 9 i if i have to, would i have tried it on that playoff hole in the masters, probably not, if i had of tried it god knows what could have happened coming out of that mulch! Could have left the ball 20 yds in front of me or could have boned it right across the fairway into the other trees. The man is a legend, doesnt matter if he got 1000 lessons or no lessons, simples

Edited by Tony_Ireland, 30 April 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[gators78]

I think at the heart of this issue is this romantic idea that deep down everyone's born with Tour talent and if it wasn't for that idiot instructor down at the range we'd be right next to Bubba, which is 100% false. There are a handful of people in history that came out of the womb with Tour talent and the instructors realized they just needed to not mess it up, for the rest of the human race it takes a lot of little advancements and a LOT of trial and error, and instructors (or being around good players) fastrack that whole process. How fast that track goes is dependent on the player.  

I do believe he's never taken a lesson, but he's also been around really great players his entire life and garnered tips along the way and boy that's a great way to get good in a hurry...throw in otherworldly talent and build and oh hey Bubba.

Edited by gators78, 30 April 2012 - 10:22 AM.