73 replies to this topic

[chickenpotpie]

hebron1427, on 09 August 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

indyvai, on 09 August 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Even a gated stroke doesn't rotate around the spine, and is a very similar bio mechanic motion to the perceived SBST.  The rotation around the spine is more relevant to the full swing.  There's a reason the putting motion is commonly referred to as rocking the shoulders and not rotating back and through...

disagree. my shoulders rotate around my spine when putting. SBST requires a "rocking" that actually compresses the spine. very unnatural.

Feels natural to me.  Not sure what is so difficult or forced about a pendulum motion?  But I'm also not trying to force the face to be square to the target the whole time either.  I think there is some rotation no matter how hard you try not to have any.

[hebron1427]

chickenpotpie, on 09 August 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Feels natural to me.  Not sure what is so difficult or forced about a pendulum motion? But I'm also not trying to force the face to be square to the target the whole time either.  I think there is some rotation no matter how hard you try not to have any.

this is the real key. as long as you're not actively manipulating anything to achieve it, i think you're going to be successful. but i also think that, were we to honestly review most people who SBST putt, their strokes are not as natural or as unmanipulated as even they might think.

[indyvai]

Rocking the shoulders does not compress the spine and technically rotates around the spine the same way the arc stroke does.  The plane created by the shoulders determines whether you are arc'd  or SBST.  The vertical plane created during a SBST motion is closer to the slight arc plane than you'd believe... it's either comfortable or not.  I practice every which way for research purposes and can do both motions comfortably and naturally.  One is a vertical arc, and the other is slightly tilted.

[Dscvrr St Louis]

Chose IDTL, but the swinging gate is not far off from the normal stroke...either works...for me it is a 4:30 toe hang and heavy headed putter, currently 365 gram Deschamps that kicked the Newport Beach out of the bag!  Square set up, ball from 1/3 in stance.

[PuttingDoctor]

Hebron you missed one!? I'm shocked!!!

How about SBST On Plane?

Too many golfers are confused by SBST and in an attempt to overcome the proper plane of the putter in use will manipulate the putter trying to contrive a SBST with face angle square to the aim line throughout. This requires a lot of correction during the stroke.

Similarly players try to contrive an arc stroke by rolling their hands and faning the face of the club.

In proper athletic posture the path of the putting stroke should be a product of the shaft angle.  If the face angle was square at address and the hands don't interfere with the face the stroke should reveal a slight in to in arc with face angle square to path thoughout.

[chris_golf]

PuttingDoctor, on 10 August 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

How about SBST On Plane?

In proper athletic posture the path of the putting stroke should be a product of the shaft angle.  If the face angle was square at address and the hands don't interfere with the face the stroke should reveal a slight in to in arc with face angle square to path thoughout.

I thought I am putting with an slight arc - but if I look at my shaft from the target view - then I am SBST on plane...



Is this correct?

Chris

[PuttingDoctor]

Looks good Chris, I see some minor rotation but I'd rather see it on the SAM or at least closer up.  Bring the camera in just a little to help fill the frame with your body. A close up of the putter head/ball from behind the setup will reveal more as well.

Also see if you can't do a shot from the extended foot line.... so we can see the true shoulder alignment which might be a bit shut.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I doubt that "SBST On Plane" will catch on among the popular lingo but what friend Putting Doctor describes is the only way I know how to putt worth a darn. Eyes over the ball, arms hanging down with no tension and a light grip with no hand action during the stroke.

From that setup my shoulders rock back and through, my arms swing back and through, the putter moves back and through and the "arc" of the stroke depends entirely on your reference point of view. From the point of view of my hands it's "Straight" because I'm not manipulating the face angle. From the point of view of the putter itself there's no "Arc" because it sees itself square to the line throughout. Any arced path you might observe from above or behind the line is a trick of geometry, the key is the lack of hand manipulation.

I think Ping and others ought to classify strokes by how much the player is opening or closing the putter face with his hands, not by the shape of the arc as observed from a stationary external reference point. It's like an airline pilot flying in a straight line when, on a map, his path describes a Great Circle arc. Just because it looks curved on a map doesn't mean the pilot is meant to be turning his hands on the controls to make the plane bank and turn...

[gortosi]

Strong arc most of the time, occasionally I finish down the line.

[gonzalezserg]

For me its sbsf using a face balanced Putter. I tried a plumber neck Putter with moderate toe hand and I find myself fighting with the back stroke and foward stroke to keep it in line. I dont get technical or read into other people theories I do and play the way that feels good to me...happy putting......

[gonzalezserg]

For me its sbsf using a face balanced Putter. I tried a plumber neck Putter with moderate toe hand and I find myself fighting with the back stroke and foward stroke to keep it in line. I dont get technical or read into other people theories I do and play the way that feels good to me...happy putting......

[PuttingDoctor]

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 12 August 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I doubt that "SBST On Plane" will catch on among the popular lingo but what friend Putting Doctor describes is the only way I know how to putt worth a darn. Eyes over the ball, arms hanging down with no tension and a light grip with no hand action during the stroke.

From that setup my shoulders rock back and through, my arms swing back and through, the putter moves back and through and the "arc" of the stroke depends entirely on your reference point of view. From the point of view of my hands it's "Straight" because I'm not manipulating the face angle. From the point of view of the putter itself there's no "Arc" because it sees itself square to the line throughout. Any arced path you might observe from above or behind the line is a trick of geometry, the key is the lack of hand manipulation.

I think Ping and others ought to classify strokes by how much the player is opening or closing the putter face with his hands, not by the shape of the arc as observed from a stationary external reference point. It's like an airline pilot flying in a straight line when, on a map, his path describes a Great Circle arc. Just because it looks curved on a map doesn't mean the pilot is meant to be turning his hands on the controls to make the plane bank and turn...

+1 What he said!

Better watch out though, folks might start calling you a heretic for promoting that the world isn't flat....

[indyvai]

PuttingDoctor, on 12 August 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 12 August 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I doubt that "SBST On Plane" will catch on among the popular lingo but what friend Putting Doctor describes is the only way I know how to putt worth a darn. Eyes over the ball, arms hanging down with no tension and a light grip with no hand action during the stroke.

From that setup my shoulders rock back and through, my arms swing back and through, the putter moves back and through and the "arc" of the stroke depends entirely on your reference point of view. From the point of view of my hands it's "Straight" because I'm not manipulating the face angle. From the point of view of the putter itself there's no "Arc" because it sees itself square to the line throughout. Any arced path you might observe from above or behind the line is a trick of geometry, the key is the lack of hand manipulation.

I think Ping and others ought to classify strokes by how much the player is opening or closing the putter face with his hands, not by the shape of the arc as observed from a stationary external reference point. It's like an airline pilot flying in a straight line when, on a map, his path describes a Great Circle arc. Just because it looks curved on a map doesn't mean the pilot is meant to be turning his hands on the controls to make the plane bank and turn...

+1 What he said!

Better watch out though, folks might start calling you a heretic for promoting that the world isn't flat....

Oddly my definition of SBST is dead on to this... so not really understanding the on plane version... might have to PM Doc...

[PuttingDoctor]

indyvai, on 12 August 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

PuttingDoctor, on 12 August 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 12 August 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I doubt that "SBST On Plane" will catch on among the popular lingo but what friend Putting Doctor describes is the only way I know how to putt worth a darn. Eyes over the ball, arms hanging down with no tension and a light grip with no hand action during the stroke.

From that setup my shoulders rock back and through, my arms swing back and through, the putter moves back and through and the "arc" of the stroke depends entirely on your reference point of view. From the point of view of my hands it's "Straight" because I'm not manipulating the face angle. From the point of view of the putter itself there's no "Arc" because it sees itself square to the line throughout. Any arced path you might observe from above or behind the line is a trick of geometry, the key is the lack of hand manipulation.

I think Ping and others ought to classify strokes by how much the player is opening or closing the putter face with his hands, not by the shape of the arc as observed from a stationary external reference point. It's like an airline pilot flying in a straight line when, on a map, his path describes a Great Circle arc. Just because it looks curved on a map doesn't mean the pilot is meant to be turning his hands on the controls to make the plane bank and turn...

+1 What he said!

Better watch out though, folks might start calling you a heretic for promoting that the world isn't flat....

Oddly my definition of SBST is dead on to this... so not really understanding the on plane version... might have to PM Doc...

Indy, many folks who think they have a SBST stroke are on plane unless they attempt to manipulate the putter off plane... and keep the face looking at the target thoughout the stroke.

It's always a surprise when I set up the PerfectStroke and they watch their face rotate even though the shaft is sliding straight back and through on a rail.

I know Hebron knows the difference and I really was just raggin' on him about leaving it out.

Simply put the shaft angle dictates the plane and hence natural rotation of the SBST stroke.  The flatter your lie angle the more rotation you'll witness.

FYI the guy who says it more than me is Stan Utley... He says, " I teach SBST on plane. "

Edited by PuttingDoctor, 12 August 2012 - 06:28 PM.

[indyvai]

That's funny because my impression was that SBST was supposed to be on plane with dead hands, and those who manipulated the face were just doing it wrong... leading to the critics of SBST to conclude it was difficult and unnatural.  So is there a school of taught that advocates the manipulation or was my original assumption correct?

[jbrunone]

SBST, just works

[rustyputterguy]

indyvai, on 12 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

That's funny because my impression was that SBST was supposed to be on plane with dead hands, and those who manipulated the face were just doing it wrong... leading to the critics of SBST to conclude it was difficult and unnatural.  So is there a school of taught that advocates the manipulation or was my original assumption correct?

When I hear people say SBST, I assume they're talking SBST on the target line, not SBST on plane.

[hebron1427]

PuttingDoctor, on 12 August 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

I know Hebron knows the difference and I really was just raggin' on him about leaving it out.

it was in there....there's an "other" section

[PuttingDoctor]

rustyputterguy, on 12 August 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

indyvai, on 12 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

That's funny because my impression was that SBST was supposed to be on plane with dead hands, and those who manipulated the face were just doing it wrong... leading to the critics of SBST to conclude it was difficult and unnatural.  So is there a school of taught that advocates the manipulation or was my original assumption correct?

When I hear people say SBST, I assume they're talking SBST on the target line, not SBST on plane.

Indy, SBST on plane will have the face square to path thoughout if the hands don't manipulate. Pelz is an advocate of keeping the face looking at the target which requires a lot of manipulation and timing.   I've posted the SAM overhead view before of a stroke done on a PerfectStroke rail.  As my putter is set at 68 degrees the arc is more pronounced than would be a stroke at 71.

[hebron1427]

PuttingDoctor, on 13 August 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

rustyputterguy, on 12 August 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

indyvai, on 12 August 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

That's funny because my impression was that SBST was supposed to be on plane with dead hands, and those who manipulated the face were just doing it wrong... leading to the critics of SBST to conclude it was difficult and unnatural.  So is there a school of taught that advocates the manipulation or was my original assumption correct?

When I hear people say SBST, I assume they're talking SBST on the target line, not SBST on plane.

Indy, SBST on plane will have the face square to path thoughout if the hands don't manipulate. Pelz is an advocate of keeping the face looking at the target which requires a lot of manipulation and timing.   I've posted the SAM overhead view before of a stroke done on a PerfectStroke rail.  As my putter is set at 68 degrees the arc is more pronounced than would be a stroke at 71.

feel free to correct me on anything--you are clearly more expert than i--but if the face is square to the path and the path is an arc, how is this NOT properly characterized as a swinging gate stroke? even if it is a soft arc, i would think it would still be considered an arc stroke.

[PuttingDoctor]

Hebron, the graphic of the stroke was done on SAM but using PerfectStroke which is a rail trainer.  The rail is 7 inches above the surface and parallel to the target line.  There is no argument from golfers who watch their putter move straight back on the rail yet see the face rotate in to in.

A gated stroke will have a fanning action that is open to square to closed regardless of stroke shape.  We find most who are gated do arc but there are exceptions like Tiger who has more SBST & Gated.

Below is face angle square to path graphic.

Below if more of a fanning action with a little resquare after impact.  Think timing might be important in this stroke?

Edited by PuttingDoctor, 14 August 2012 - 03:08 PM.

[indyvai]

Hey Doc, I had to break out my putting bible to make sure I wasn't missing anything.  And as I suspected, I'm not sure you have Pelz painted correctly.  There is no manipulation in his version of SBST and as a true pendulum... it's the ideal teaching for that style.

I like Hebron am baffled a bit with the SBST on plane issue.  I think I understand exactly what it is, but it sounds like a slightly arc'd version of the Pelz Pendulum (PP)...

[tweakedmelon]

This topic has made me clearly realize that I need to work on my putting stroke b/c I have so little idea what all this means. (It itmight explain my high Putts/Round)

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

If you have no idea what it means, you most definitely should not be working on it!


Practice is only helpful under two conditions: You have a correct goal in mind and you have a clear idea of how your practice technique will move you toward that goal. Looking at picture that makes no sense at all to you and then going out and practicing with that picture in mind is a sure recipe for ruining whatever stroke you have at the moment.

[hebron1427]

indyvai, on 15 August 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Hey Doc, I had to break out my putting bible to make sure I wasn't missing anything.  And as I suspected, I'm not sure you have Pelz painted correctly.  There is no manipulation in his version of SBST and as a true pendulum... it's the ideal teaching for that style.

i think what Glen is saying is that regardless of Pelz's teaching about manipulating the hands, that is the only way to keep the face square to the target line 100% of the time. something must be altered from simple rotation about the spine to achieve a true SBST on target stroke. Either a) you manipulate the hands and arm position relative to the body while rotating about hte spine; b) you shift your weight back and forward, effectively using translational motion of your body to move hte putter head through the strike zone; or c) your "rotation" is not true circular rotation about the spine but is a rocking that requires bending of hte spine and/or compression of muscles in your back that is not simple rotation about the spine.

i will say i am still a bit unsure about the definition of SBST "on plane," though.

Edited by hebron1427, 15 August 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[hebron1427]

tweakedmelon, on 15 August 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

This topic has made me clearly realize that I need to work on my putting stroke b/c I have so little idea what all this means. (It itmight explain my high Putts/Round)

much of this topic is in the ether of putting theory. PDr is one who understands this subject more than pretty much anyone else here. if you have practical questions about this stuff, i suggest you ask him directly.

[indyvai]

hebron1427, on 15 August 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

indyvai, on 15 August 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Hey Doc, I had to break out my putting bible to make sure I wasn't missing anything.  And as I suspected, I'm not sure you have Pelz painted correctly.  There is no manipulation in his version of SBST and as a true pendulum... it's the ideal teaching for that style.

i think what Glen is saying is that regardless of Pelz's teaching about manipulating the hands, that is the only way to keep the face square to the target line 100% of the time. something must be altered from simple rotation about the spine to achieve a true SBST on target stroke. Either a) you manipulate the hands and arm position relative to the body while rotating about hte spine; b) you shift your weight back and forward, effectively using translational motion of your body to move hte putter head through the strike zone; or c) your "rotation" is not true circular rotation about the spine but is a rocking that requires bending of hte spine and/or compression of muscles in your back that is not simple rotation about the spine.

i will say i am still a bit unsure about the definition of SBST "on plane," though.

I completely understand what Glen's saying about Pelz... I don't think it's accurate.  The results of people trying to do it correctly might reflect the manipulation, but theoretically it's not necessary.  The PP is a vertical plane with hands under shoulders... so if you rock your shoulders and keep your hands on that vertical plane, your putter remains square to the target line.  The putter head itself moves on a vertical arc... but you don't have to force anything...

[PuttingDoctor]

The only way to keep the putter face looking at the target throughout the putting stroke without manipulation is to have a vertical 90 degree shaft angle which would be illegal under USGA equipment rules.  Then you'll have a true pendulum stroke.

If you have a laser handy that attaches to the putter head referenced to the target you'll learn pretty fast what's happening in the true rotation of the putter head.

I'm just getting ready to build up the next putting platform and will be shooting some video in the next few weeks.  Time is getting short though as I have to head out on the road for the entire month of September.

SBST On Plane is what Stan Utley will tell you.  You can do the same with any rail type trainer, PerfectStroke or Swinkey and others.  I've got both of course....

[indyvai]

PuttingDoctor, on 15 August 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

The only way to keep the putter face looking at the target throughout the putting stroke without manipulation is to have a vertical 90 degree shaft angle which would be illegal under USGA equipment rules.  Then you'll have a true pendulum stroke.

If you have a laser handy that attaches to the putter head referenced to the target you'll learn pretty fast what's happening in the true rotation of the putter head.

I'm just getting ready to build up the next putting platform and will be shooting some video in the next few weeks.  Time is getting short though as I have to head out on the road for the entire month of September.

SBST On Plane is what Stan Utley will tell you.  You can do the same with any rail type trainer, PerfectStroke or Swinkey and others.  I've got both of course....

I'm just saying that contradicts what Pelz teaches in his book.  And it can't be impossible geometrically if his robot Perfy can do it...

What is the explanation that shows the error in Pelz's teaching?

[emfish11]

I have a weird stroke.  I go straight back then transiton into a large arch.  It looks stupid but my putting is fine.