80 replies to this topic

[glacialmoraine]

I went looking at putters the other day. I hate to practice putting and figure if I get a really cool putter I'll want to use it more & therefore practice more.

I am new back to the game and hadn't ever heard of face balancing of putters, it kind of seems like a gimmick - i mean you don't use the putter facing up at the sky, but the salesman at the store seemed to think it made all the difference in the world. he said my stroke was straight back straight through, just by watching me putt.  I didn't like the looks of any of the face balanced putters they had at the store and since I'm buying a putter to motivate me to practice, that is fairly important. But if it makes that big of a difference I may have to work on getting to like the looks of them.

So, is face balancing all that and a bag of chips?

thanks!

gm

[atlanta golfer]

I believe this idea of trying to ID if people as arc style putters or sbst and then picking a putter weighted for that type of stroke, is questionable.

My opinion is that it is best to try out a bunch of putters and go with the one that fits your eye and feels right to you when you stroke the ball towards the cup.

Speaking from my own experience, I used to always have blade style anser putters which were heel toe weighted.  Last year I went to a face balanced mallet and I am putting better and things feel more stable through the stroke.

[Scotty1140]

Face balanced putters are no gimmick. It's simply a term to describe the amount of toe hang or toe flow a putter has. When balancing the shaft on your fingers a face balanced putter's face will point straight up or nearly straight up. An plumber's neck, Anser style putter's toe will hang a little lower, around 4:30, while heel shafted putters or putters with short hosels will hang close to 6:00. A general guideline (by no means gospel or a rule) is the more arch someone has in their putting stroke, the more toe flow they need their putter to have to compliment their stroke. Those with a minimal arch (SBST) to their stroke tend to use a more face balanced putter.

While stroke type is an important variable to consider when choosing a putter, keep in mind it is one variable. Proper length, lie, loft, weight, etc all play a part. Using something that fits your eye, that you can easily line up should be the first thing you should consider IMO. From there, try a few out and see what feels, strokes the best.

Edited by Scotty1140, 26 April 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[kellygreen]

glacialmoraine, on 26 April 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I went looking at putters the other day. I hate to practice putting and figure if I get a really cool putter I'll want to use it more & therefore practice more.

I am new back to the game and hadn't ever heard of face balancing of putters, it kind of seems like a gimmick - i mean you don't use the putter facing up at the sky, but the salesman at the store seemed to think it made all the difference in the world. he said my stroke was straight back straight through, just by watching me putt.  I didn't like the looks of any of the face balanced putters they had at the store and since I'm buying a putter to motivate me to practice, that is fairly important. But if it makes that big of a difference I may have to work on getting to like the looks of them.

So, is face balancing all that and a bag of chips?

thanks!

gm

If you truly have stroke that is straigh-back-and-through you will find it difficult to putt consistently with any putter that ISN'T face-balanced.   It is not a gimmick.   A face-balanced putter is designed so that the face remains square to that kind of stroke.  So you can put freely.   Any putter that is NOT face-balanced, you would have manipulate the putter in some fashion so that it is square at impact.

Most face-balanced putters are mallets...but not all of them.   Scotty Cameron used to make a face-balanced Anser-type, heel-toe weighted blade...and I think Ping still makes them.  It's Ping Anser 5 milled putter is a face-balanced blade.

But you should be able to find a face-balanced putter that looks good to your eye, as long as it doesn't insist upon a heel-shafted blade of some sort.

[hebron1427]

the thing about toe hang (i.e., face balancing) is that it's a general guideline. there was a study done that said that if you're blindfolded, you putt just hte same no matter what you use. however, we don't putt blindfolded, so i'm not really sure what that study shows.

will you be unsuccessful putting with an SBST stroke and a putter with toe hang? i can't say that. what i can say is that you have a better chance of success by getting the right equipment for your game. think about it this way: you wouldn't buy a senior flex shaft if you swung 120 miles per hour. i'm not saying you couldn't play good golf wtih it. i'm just saying it doesn't fit your game.

look aroudn long enough and you'll find something that works. maybe if you told the people here what you liked you might get some suggestions as to a face balanced putter that meets your eye. blades? mallets? heel-toe "anser" style? plumber's neck? flow neck? center shafted? finish/colors? tell us what it is that you prefer and i guarantee someone here will find something for you.

[indyvai]

It's not a gimmick, and matching head balance to stroke specs is an important part of putter fitting.  However... I have yet to read a study proving that the marriage between the 2 is anything but user perception and preference.  Most of my beliefs are based on the theoretical physics of putting, and from that standpoint... it doesn't matter.  I putt SBST and use a flowneck mallet with a heavy toe... but I can see someone with a strong arc preferring toe hand to feel the putter rotate.

You can't go wrong with face balance, but don't pigeon hole yourself...

[chickenpotpie]

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

It's not a gimmick, and matching head balance to stroke specs is an important part of putter fitting.  However... I have yet to read a study proving that the marriage between the 2 is anything but user perception and preference.  Most of my beliefs are based on the theoretical physics of putting, and from that standpoint... it doesn't matter.  I putt SBST and use a flowneck mallet with a heavy toe... but I can see someone with a strong arc preferring toe hand to feel the putter rotate.

You can't go wrong with face balance, but don't pigeon hole yourself...

Exactly.  I wouldn't say face balancing is a gimmick, but it's no panacea for SBST users either.  Maybe it works, but I've seen studies that show that it made no difference to a blindfolded user of both styles of putter.  It has more to do with what's between your ears, in my opinion.  I have a SBST stroke, and according to the iPing app, I have a +3 handicap with a flow neck putter.  To me, if I'm square at address and make my stroke, I'm good.

[KYMAR]

I don't even know what "is it a gimmick? means. Do you take the putter straight back and through? Then a putter with a lot of toe hang is not going to work as well as a face balanced putter. The issue is stroke manipulation or rather elimination of it. Using a putter that is ill balanced for the way you putt will result in you having to use your hands/wrists/forearms to square the face of the putter at impact. On a practice green at a golf store, that gets pretty easy to do hitting the same 12 footer over and over but in the real world, the timing of squaring the face over varying distance is where the damage is done. If the person who did your fitting was competent to evaluate your stroke and it truly was SBST then you should definitely be looking for a face balanced putter. And face balanced putters come in every shape and style. If you prefer the look of a blade, I can recomend the Ping 1959 series Answer X, the Yes Tracy, (actually, YES make a number of face balanced blades which can be had fairly cheaply on ebay)

I wasn't going to respond but then saw your comment that you are looking for a putter to practice because you want to become good. Getting a putter that mismatches your stroke makes that goal unnecessarily more difficult.

Edited by KYMAR, 26 April 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[indyvai]

How does a toe heavy putter hurt a SBST stroke?

[kellygreen]

chickenpotpie, on 26 April 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

It's not a gimmick, and matching head balance to stroke specs is an important part of putter fitting.  However... I have yet to read a study proving that the marriage between the 2 is anything but user perception and preference.  Most of my beliefs are based on the theoretical physics of putting, and from that standpoint... it doesn't matter.  I putt SBST and use a flowneck mallet with a heavy toe... but I can see someone with a strong arc preferring toe hand to feel the putter rotate.

You can't go wrong with face balance, but don't pigeon hole yourself...

Exactly.  I wouldn't say face balancing is a gimmick, but it's no panacea for SBST users either.  Maybe it works, but I've seen studies that show that it made no difference to a blindfolded user of both styles of putter.  It has more to do with what's between your ears, in my opinion.  I have a SBST stroke, and according to the iPing app, I have a +3 handicap with a flow neck putter.  To me, if I'm square at address and make my stroke, I'm good.

Yes, and I have a strong arc stroke when I putt conventionally, and I can make a face-balanced mallet work if I have to.

As another poster mentioned, we don't putt blindfolded...and even blindfolded we still have our other senses at work.

Edited by kellygreen, 26 April 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[glacialmoraine]

I just meant gimmick in the sense that the face is pointing up when you balance it on your finger, but it is pointing forward when you actually putt, so what is balanced in one plane may be unbalanced in another plane. I/E balancing horizontally doesn't mean it will balance vertically... This seemore putters video kind of sums up what I was thinking:


I like the blade style and think I found a face balanced putter that I like the looks of:

http://www.scottycam...361&seasonID=20

Unfortunately it is discontinued so I'll have to buy one to try it out most likely. He has a new one called the notchback that looks pretty similar, I might be able to find one of those to try out.
http://www.scottycam...del.aspx?id=409

I think I like the classic silver better, but the black is growing on me.

Thanks for all the wonderful advice, this site is great!

take care,

GM

[indyvai]

Look at Cameron's Catalina, those were FB, and can be had quite reasonably... not the cat classic or the cat 2... the original.

[chickenpotpie]

KYMAR, on 26 April 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

I don't even know what "is it a gimmick? means. Do you take the putter straight back and through? Then a putter with a lot of toe hang is not going to work as well as a face balanced putter. The issue is stroke manipulation or rather elimination of it. Using a putter that is ill balanced for the way you putt will result in you having to use your hands/wrists/forearms to square the face of the putter at impact. On a practice green at a golf store, that gets pretty easy to do hitting the same 12 footer over and over but in the real world, the timing of squaring the face over varying distance is where the damage is done. If the person who did your fitting was competent to evaluate your stroke and it truly was SBST then you should definitely be looking for a face balanced putter. And face balanced putters come in every shape and style. If you prefer the look of a blade, I can recomend the Ping 1959 series Answer X, the Yes Tracy, (actually, YES make a number of face balanced blades which can be had fairly cheaply on ebay)

I wasn't going to respond but then saw your comment that you are looking for a putter to practice because you want to become good. Getting a putter that mismatches your stroke makes that goal unnecessarily more difficult.

I have to disagree, I guess.  I've been through several fittings with a competent fitter, and each time he's seen and measured my stroke, I've come away using a non-FB putter.  In each case, the lie and loft were far more important.  Using a FB putter did nothing to improve my putting

[kellygreen]

The youtube video is basically a sales-pitch.

Again, people don't putt the way he's manipulating those putters.

If you try to putt on an arc with a face-balanced putter, it WILL be open to your path.

A center-shafted putter will tend to stay square to the path...the problem is that you have to hit it dead-center.

I have two basic putting strokes.  

If I putt conventionally, I have a path that travels in a strong arc.   I can manipulate a face-balanced putter into working.  But when I putt freely, it pushes putts to the right.   I put most accurately---especially from a distance with either a heel-shafted blade or anser-type putter with lots of toe flow.

IF I putt left-hand low, my stroke is straight-back and straight through.   With this stroke the face-balanced putter becomes deadly accurate.   Once again I can manipulate a putter with a lot of toe-flow into working...but when I putt the most freely, putts are pulled to the left.

[indyvai]

"If you try to putt on an arc with a face-balanced putter, it WILL be open to your path."

False and extremely misinforming...

[kellygreen]

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

"If you try to putt on an arc with a face-balanced putter, it WILL be open to your path."

False and extremely misinforming...

Unless you manipulate it....not false.

The whole point of face-balancing is so that the putter resists the natrual tendency to rotate.  So it will---unless manipulated---tend to hood going back, and open coming through.

But since people don't putt the ball on their backstroke......

[chickenpotpie]

[/quote]

The whole point of face-balancing is so that the putter resists the natrual tendency to rotate.
[/quote]

Why?  Just because you can balance a putter on your finger and it points straight up, that means it will resist rotation?  Says who?

[indyvai]

"Unless you manipulate it....not false."

Still false... you're saying that a toe heavy putter rotates by itself?  And a face balanced putter resists rotation?  Where's the proof if this?  If I take a robot that putts SBST and I give him a toe heavy putter... there will be no difference from a face balanced putter.  The opposite is true too...

[hebron1427]

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

"Unless you manipulate it....not false."

Still false... you're saying that a toe heavy putter rotates by itself?  And a face balanced putter resists rotation?  Where's the proof if this?  If I take a robot that putts SBST and I give him a toe heavy putter... there will be no difference from a face balanced putter.  The opposite is true too...

You're right that the absolute statement that "it WILL" is false. The tendency will be there though because of the small amount of torque the player feels. A robot won't perceive that and, thus, there will be no subconscious adjustment for it.

I also find it funny that people here think the sbst stroke won't work with toe flow "unless there's manipulation." an sbst stroke REQUIREs manipulation of the hands to keep the face square to the target. Why would manipulation be an issue?

[atlanta golfer]

I think all these different ideas and opinions and theories just reinforces some of the posters who say, try a variety of putters, figure out what feels and looks best to you, and go with it.  This is not a a science, it is an art.

[PINGWRXforeme]

With my experience no. I have always had a pretty good SBST stroke and when I was fit for my putter the one I aim and roll the best has toe hang.

[northgolf]

atlanta golfer, on 26 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

I think all these different ideas and opinions and theories just reinforces some of the posters who say, try a variety of putters, figure out what feels and looks best to you, and go with it.  This is not a a science, it is an art.

There may be a science to putting, but all that is in the public these days is art so I agree: figure out what feels and looks best to you, and go with it.

My stroke is SBST and I've played a face balanced putter for the past 25+ years - I just went and bought one that is heel balanced because it feels better.  In terms of putter balance, if your grip is so weak and wimpy you can't keep a putter face in line then it is a miracle you can hit a full shot.

[greens hit]

I once used a strong arc stroke with a face balanced putter and my right arm fell off.  Never again!

Seriously, I don't think it really makes a big difference.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

How does a toe heavy putter hurt a SBST stroke?

If you squeeze the grip tightly anyway, it won't matter a bit. When a toe heavy putter stops moving backward and begins moving forward, the heel (nearer the shaft, balance-wise) will move forward before the toe does. Then the toe catches up at some point. That point might be before the putter reaches the ball, after the ball has left the putter or right at the moment of impact. It's a timing thing and becomes absolutely crucial if you let the toe do that particular motion.

Two ways to cure the problem. Use an face-balanced putter or hold on to the grip tightly enough that the toe is forced to move without any rotation of the shaft. Otherwise, the choice is either get the timing perfect every time or make poor strokes.

So if your grip pressure is tight enough (and I see lots of people with white-knuckle gripping) you can be totally SBST and use a toe heavy putter just fine. Most other people with toe-hangers "manipulate" the putter, meaning they deliberately rotate the shaft during the stroke so they can time it just right to arrive back square at the ball. Works great if you're Ben Crenshaw, works pretty well if you're Phil Mickelson, for my part I'd just as soon not need perfect timing and a stroke I have to practice constantly so I use putters that are face balanced, or approximately so.

P.S. Since I just typed it two days ago I won't repeat the whole thing but the way to test for rotation of the putter during the stroke is to swing it gently swing it like a pendulum, holding it just by your fingertips. You will easily see whether the toe swings back and forth relative to the heel or not. This is that matters and it does not totally 100% coincide with the fingertip balance test. For instance a Bullseye putter typically doesn't have that toe swing nearly as much as the face-balance test would lead you to expect.

P.P.S. Anyone reading this thread has the physical strength to hold a putter in any position they like during the stroke. I assumed they wanted to actually have some distance control and touch when they were putting, not prove their manhood by squeezing the putter grip until it says Uncle.

Edited by Fourmyle of Ceres, 27 April 2012 - 05:24 AM.

[kellygreen]

chickenpotpie, on 26 April 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Why?  Just because you can balance a putter on your finger and it points straight up, that means it will resist rotation?  Says who?

Says the laws of physics.

A putter is face-balanced when the center-of-mass of the putter head is precisely in line with the axis of the shaft.

[kellygreen]

indyvai, on 26 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

"Unless you manipulate it....not false."

Still false... you're saying that a toe heavy putter rotates by itself?  And a face balanced putter resists rotation?  Where's the proof if this?  If I take a robot that putts SBST and I give him a toe heavy putter... there will be no difference from a face balanced putter.  The opposite is true too...

Actually the physical laws of motion say otherwise, because of the relationship of the center of gravity of the putterhead in relationship to the shaft.  

All other things being equal, a putter with toe flow will tend to want to rotate in relationship to putter shaft if allowed to swing SBST.   Tending to want to open to the target on the backswing, and close to it on the forward stroke.  Now whether it actually does this will depend upon how loosely it is held, because the rotational force generated by several ounces of metal is small...and can be easily overcome.   So a player (or a robot with a putter rigidly fixed) can hold the putter closed on the backswing and keep it open on the forward stroke.

Conversely a putter with face-balancing will tend to stay square in relationship to the putter shaft if allowed to swing SBST.  Because the center-of-mass is in perfect alignment with the putter shaft. But if it is swung on an arc, the putter shaft is swung away from the target line.  So, in order to stay square to the axis of the shaft, the face will tend to hood on the backstroke, and then open on the forward stroke.    Again, these forces are small, so that a player with a tight grip or a robot that has the club rigidly fixed to it can overcome them.

But to the player with a light grip and allows the putter to release freely, a face-balanced putter will perform better with a SBST stroke, and a putter with toe flow will perform better on an arcing stroke.

[kellygreen]

greens hit, on 26 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

I once used a strong arc stroke with a face balanced putter and my right arm fell off.  Never again!

Seriously, I don't think it really makes a big difference.

If you have a tight grip and don't allow the putter to release freely...it doesn't.

But if you allow the putter to realease freely....it does.

[indyvai]

"When a toe heavy putter stops moving backward and begins moving forward, the heel (nearer the shaft, balance-wise) will move forward before the toe does. Then the toe catches up at some point."

It's not a whip... if you take an 8802 and go SBST, the heel and the toe move forward at the same time.  If you take an arc stroke with the same putter... same result.  It may seem like the two move differently due to feel or perception, but if the putter has a grip, the slight weight differences don't cause rotation by themselves.

"Says the laws of physics.

A putter is face-balanced when the center-of-mass of the putter head is precisely in line with the axis of the shaft."

Actually... physics leans the opposite direction.  Putting a putter horizontally and viewing how gravity pulls the head to an equilibrium is far from an indication of how it reacts while putting.  If you didn't have a grip, and there was no friction between your hands and the shaft... you would be onto something.  People can feel toe hang and it helps some people with the feel of their stroke.  The putter does not rotate by itself during a stroke.

[indyvai]

"Now whether it actually does this will depend upon how loosely it is held, because the rotational force generated by several ounces of metal is small...and can be easily overcome."

The laws of physics that apply theoretically don't apply practically.  Any grip pressure light enough to allow the putter to rotate your hands is not going to be advantageous to putting.  If this weren't true there would be pros teaching the loose grip whip method, and someone would invent a grip that isn't snug to the shaft to allow for rotation.

[kellygreen]

indyvai, on 27 April 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

"Now whether it actually does this will depend upon how loosely it is held, because the rotational force generated by several ounces of metal is small...and can be easily overcome."

The laws of physics that apply theoretically don't apply practically.  Any grip pressure light enough to allow the putter to rotate your hands is not going to be advantageous to putting.  If this weren't true there would be pros teaching the loose grip whip method, and someone would invent a grip that isn't snug to the shaft to allow for rotation.

May not apply practically to YOUR STROKE.   Wouldn't be advantageous to YOUR stroke.

But there are plenty of pros who teach putting with an arcing stroke, a light grip, and allowing the putterhead to release.  

However you couldn't swing a dead cat and avoid hitthing half-a-dozen putting methods that don't involve these things.