80 replies to this topic

[jabroni23]

I think of it this way.  When we had wooden heads, many of the people that golfed were really into it, it was more of a cult sport.  Since Eldrick, everyone wants to golf and it's more mainstream now, so in my opinion, the median as to the skill level of a golfer has gone down.  That is why more GI irons and larger drivers are needed.

[kellygreen]

ShadJC, on 25 April 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Although I have stated that the larger drivers are clearly a huge advantage today, I will stress that you have to have a high quality club that has the right head combination for you. The numbers are much more extreme today due to the advances in technology (more clubhead speed, ball speed, spin, etc.). If you have the wrong clubhead/shaft combination you can have very poor results. That's why it's very key to have assistance of a good launch monitor when buying a driver today. For example, the first RBZ driver I hit this year was a 9.5 degree with a standard stiff shaft and the FCT setting at normal. The club felt great and it felt like I was crushing it! However, the launch monitor showed that with my clubhead speed I was generating way too much backspin, way too much sidespin (hook), and the launch angle was really high. Although it felt like I was killing it, the numbers were showing a shot of only 280 yds with a lot of really high extreme right-to-left action. When I took the exact same head, put an x-stiff Matrix 'Ozik' HD6 shaft in it, and adjusted the FCT down to -1.5 degrees (effective loft of 8 degrees) with the most open face angle, it showed a consistently straight shot (slight draw), with less than half the back and side spin, equating to a shot consistently well over 300 yds. That club is in my bag now and the numbers didn't lie! I absolutely love the club! I'm hitting from places (good places) I've never been on courses I've played my whole life! Moral of the story, you can't judge all modern large-headed drivers based on the experience with one or a couple 'off-the-rack' clubs, because the shaft, effective loft, and face angle alone can make all the difference in the world. The ability of today's clubs to easily change shafts and the adjust club head playing specifications (lie, loft, face angle, moveable weights, etc) makes so much more critical to employ the services of a good club guy and a launch monitor when selecting the right driver.

[Huskypride28]

Ironic that you posted this b/c I too was thinking this as well.  For me though I think it's mental. Something about the size of the head throws me off.  When I look down and see that big head I feel like I have to over emphasize trying to turn the head over.  My result is coming over the top and slicing it or coming way underneath attempting to flip it over, except the face stays open and pushes right as well. When I tee off with my 3 wood I hit a nice baby draw and my misses are a hook.  The bigger heads are more forgiving and will help your distance on off center hits, however I do believe they can be a mental deterrent causing bad swing fundamentals.

[jonyim94]

Well, there may be a cure for this issue by going back into 400-440cc drivers (i.e. sub-460 drivers or "players drivers"). They do have a lower MOI and flight the ball lower than your 460cc GI drivers . I also have this same issue to some extent, not hitting 460cc drivers well. Try that, it might make a difference.

[bobcat]

Still lovin my TaylorMade R500 Tour (325cc).  That size just suits me best for some reason.  I have others drivers in the rotation that I use from time to time, (see below), but the R500 Tour is the ultimate in workablitity and control so it tends to stay in the bag.

Other favorite TM heads in my driver rotation:

- R510 (330cc)
- R510-TP (390cc)
- R540XD-TP Tour (400cc)
- R580XD-TP Tour (440cc)

I use a (Black) 45" Fujikura 757 Tourspec tipped 1/2" in all of these.  Great shaft for all these heads!  

[Tarkata]

The heads will go back to 420cc, then 380cc will be marketed

..you'll see it first in 'elite' club maker releases...

Probably Yonex will lead the way back to 380cc.

Edited by Tarkata, 30 July 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[DevilDog]

I need to see if I can find it again but a physics professor determined optimal size for a driver in a recent study.  Turned out that 385cc drivers were most optimal.  He acknowledged 460cc clubs can be more forgiving but the 385cc were optimal for launch and control.  I will see if I can find it again and post it.  This would go back to the like Titleist 985E and T

[Gaijin_Golfer]

Id say its more the shafts than the clubhead.  Longer shafts give you more distance but are harder to control.

[tbowles411]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread. Where we are is we are now going backwards in some cases.  Particularly with Callaway for example. A 460cc head is of course available. But their premium head (the Razr Fix Extreme) is at 440cc.  I think in most cases, were about tapped out in most technology so each OEM are taking smaller headsv and trying to do more with them.

What say you?

[jmvargas]

...true enough but could it be that some manufacturers are now just testing which would be the optimum size they can come up with for those who prefer

slightly smaller heads??..

by making some heads slightly shallower and deeper towards the sole you can still have the visual effect of a bigger head driver without necessarily

using up all of your 460cc quota..

[Norboo]

10 Years is a life time…things I could do back than…sigh

[pcourtney]

Devildog

>I need to see if I can find it again but a physics professor determined optimal size for a driver in a recent >study.  Turned out that 385cc drivers were most optimal.  He acknowledged 460cc clubs can be more forgiving but >the 385cc were optimal for launch and control

and Mr Miura would agree with your professor friend  -  390cc all the way :-)

http://www.miuragolf...iousedition.asp

Edited by pcourtney, 26 December 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[dplasters]

Interesting concept.  

Why not play a TEE 3w+?  perhaps a little small for the 390cc crowd but its in the neighborhood for those looking for 270-300cc.

[guisician]

Tarkata, on 30 July 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

The heads will go back to 420cc, then 380cc will be marketed

..you'll see it first in 'elite' club maker releases...

Probably Yonex will lead the way back to 380cc.

Absolutely; see  Yonex eZone 460, 420, 380 and the various sizes / weights of Cleveland Classic drivers.

[Florida Gator]

Visually, 380cc works best for me.  I feel more confident over the ball with the head that size instead of the 420 plus sizd heads.

[mikpga]

bobilishious2, on 24 April 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

I was thinking through this the other day and I used to be a good driver of the ball in the late 1990's and my iron game was pretty good too.

Fast forward 10 years and my iron game is still pretty good (but I have a bit less curvature on my shots) but my driver is a real problem club.

I don't think it's the length of shaft however.

I have some footage of my play in a competition from the 1990's and most of my drives draw quite heavily (by today's standards).

My thought was that because all of todays technology is designed to hit the ball straighter (with less sidespin) have I perhaps misunderstood what i'm trying to do with my swing?

My swing was always in to out with the ball starting right and curving back. My bad shot used to be an overdraw but now it tends to be straight right.

My question is, am I just talking a load of rubbish or do you think what i'm saying makes some sense?

I've spent the last few years trying to correct my swing to start the ball much straighter (which I have achieved) but it only just occured to me that the technology might be having an effect.

I would say its just you.  However I'm not a fan of how long and light equipment has become, so perhaps from your experience the "newer" drivers have made it more difficult for you.

[RobS14526]

I think part of the problem is that most people don't "swing" a 460cc driver. They try to kill it and make inconsistent passes at the ball. You couldn't get away with that with the smaller heads.

[Ri_Redneck]

I find it hilarious when someone tells me I'm missing out using a smaller driver when my 3w, which I can crush and is one of my most reliable clubs, is 175cc.

BT

[gvogel]

I think that it is a question of finding the right shaft, the right face angle, and the right swing weight.  For a longer, bigger headed driver, I believe swing weight should be heavier to provide control.  I play my clubs at D1 or D2, except my driver which is D5 or D6.

Once one gets all the variables dialed in 440 and 460 cc heads should be easier to hit.

[dirtyboy]

They are harder to hit off the deck.

[Titleist-Golfer]

There are options - try the 380cc Yonez Ezone.  I haven't hit it, but it's available and small

I've heard it's good

[home0006]

I think a lot has to do with the longer shafts as well as the lighter club faces being harder to feel in the backswing, and not necessarily the size of the club face.  I have the same problem, and I'm relatively short at 5'7" so the longer shafts now on drivers effect me more than someone who is 5'10 or 6'.  I'm playing the RBZ right now.  A few years ago I was playing the R5 and loved the thing.  One of my favorite all time drivers.  Didn't fine anything I liked as well till the 460 R9 came out and loved that thing as well.  Then I moved to a Callaway Razr, then the RBZ.  Once the shafts got longer in the Razr and the RBZ that draw I once had started to leave me, and it became harder and harder to control off the tee.  

I'm finding them becoming harder for me to square at the face, as a result I'm doing the same thing as the OP and I'm having an open face and it shoots the ball straight right on my miss hits.  Most of the time I find I can get away with it, but I know exactly what my problem is, and it's not turning my hands over at impact to get my face square which shoot the ball straight right or I over correct and hit a big hook.  Driver is the only club I have this problem with, irons, hybrids, and wedges I have no problem getting my wrists turned over and squaring.  As a result I find myself using my 3 wood more and more off the tee on tight fairways, and I'm not losing enough distance where I feel like I'm at a disadvantage.

Edited by home0006, 28 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[bobcat]

A larger 460cc head is harder to square at impact, so some people really struggle more with that huge size.  Those folks might be better off with a smaller head. ( Do you have better control with your 3-wood?) Similarly, a longer 45.5" or more ultralite shaft can also cause some major control issues.  Heavier and shorter shafts may work much better if you have trouble making consistent contact with the driver and suffer control issues off the tee.

Buying an "off the shelf" driver these days is actually more likely to cause problems than in the past.

Edited by bobcat, 29 December 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[MelloYello]

kellygreen, on 24 April 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

bobilishious2, on 24 April 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

I was thinking through this the other day and I used to be a good driver of the ball in the late 1990's and my iron game was pretty good too.

Fast forward 10 years and my iron game is still pretty good (but I have a bit less curvature on my shots) but my driver is a real problem club.

I don't think it's the length of shaft however.

I have some footage of my play in a competition from the 1990's and most of my drives draw quite heavily (by today's standards).

My thought was that because all of todays technology is designed to hit the ball straighter (with less sidespin) have I perhaps misunderstood what i'm trying to do with my swing?

My swing was always in to out with the ball starting right and curving back. My bad shot used to be an overdraw but now it tends to be straight right.

My question is, am I just talking a load of rubbish or do you think what i'm saying makes some sense?

I've spent the last few years trying to correct my swing to start the ball much straighter (which I have achieved) but it only just occured to me that the technology might be having an effect.

Both the golf ball and the driver are designed to play differently. Differently from how they played back then, and differently than other clubs in the bag...and if your preferred tee shot used to be a push-draw in the 1990s...I can see why you might be having trouble.  

In the late 1990s, manufactures discovered that they could increase the distance of shots by increasing launch angle, and decreasing the amount of spin that the clubs and wound balls were generating. Spin you needed  to help bring your shots back on line.

So both the ball and the driver have been increasingly engineered to reduce spin. Every golf ball now has a solid core.   Drivers are now huge to maximize vertical gear effect, and push the COR limit so that you minimize spin imparted by impacting the clubface.  So you are no longer getting the sidespin you used to get.   You now just hit a push, instead of a push-draw.

I had trouble making the transition simply because of the size of the clubheads, and the changes in bulge-and-roll. For the longest time I couldn't figure out why I had suddenly gone from a high-ball hitter with my driver, to hitting these low line-drives.  Why I could hit a 350-385 cc driver without a problem...but anything over 400cc I had difficutly flighting properly.   Like with the older drivers, I had been teeing the ball so that I could make center-face contact.

What I didn't realize, is that (as the drivers got bigger) the area of the face covered by the bulge-and-roll had expanded as well. So if you teed the ball only to the point where you hit the center of the club face...and you were off just a bit....you would be hitting the ball on a part of the clubface with significantly LESS loft than what is stamped on the club head.   Lower launch...more spin....ball goes nowhere.  

Started (finally) teeing the ball higher, and putting the ball more forward in my stance so that I could catch the ball from the center-face UP....problem solved.

My diagnosis was confirmed when I got fitted recently for a 910 D3.  Caught one low on the face with the 9.5 I was trialling...and my launch angle for that shot was SIX DEGREES.  

With these clubs you have got to move the ball forwards, and tee the ball up.

Great post!


The push-draw that many better players preferred is now a terribly difficult shot to master. As was pointed out above, the sidespin isn't there anymore to bring the ball back but there's reduced backspin as well which means that it can be difficult to maximize carry distance on draw shots, too.

Modern players who's swings naturally produce a powerful fade are really the ones who are benefitting from the modern technology the most because the reduced spin helps those faders from over-spinning the ball and losing distance. It's now much easier to hit fades that don't balloon but rather stay on a flatter, more powerful trajectory for longer.

The perfect example of this is how Tiger lost much of his driving advantage in the early 2000s while his rival, Phil Mickelson, became a more powerful player. Many people believe this has contributed to why Tiger has won only once on the modified Augusta National course and why Phil has since won 3 times. There, a powerful right-to-left shot is necessary off the tee. Tiger used to be able to do that and over-power the course in many cases. Today, Tiger can't control that draw and conversely it's a fade for Mickelson so it's a huge advantage.

Ultimately, you either have to adopt the ability to fade the ball or you simply have to be very careful in practicing the draw since it's not as reliable for a great many players today.

[monkeynaut]

I have a Titleist 983K 365cc w Aldila nv shaft that I love.  I game it very often it's straight.  Probably 25 yards shorter though.  

When I go back to my ping i20 after a while I'm always longer with the ping.  But you're not alone. The deep faces of the 460s are way overrated. It's why so many guys are more precise with a 3 wood vs a driver.  But there are a lot of guts with strange ego compensation that imagine they need a bigger driver.  So there's no money in it for OEMs to market a better smaller head.

[SlyGuy]

I for one love a clean look. I play blades and below 400cc drivers. Not because I'm great or because I want to look cool. It's what I enjoy. I think that's been lost these days with technology.

[andyville99]

Well, I have 18 drivers, and the one that I feel like I can tell where the clubface is the easiest is my Yonex Ezone 380.  It's as long or longer than any of the 440 or 460 drivers I have, the feel is better, and it's simply more pleasing to hit.  The sweetspot is closer to the shaft with a smaller head and that creates less of a need to manipulate the head to square it up at impact, and for me, at least, that makes for more consistent drives...

I just found an older Mizuno Pro 300 S II head that I had stored away (315cc) and put a GD YSQ 65 shaft in it - 44.5" and D-2 sw, can't wait to give it a comparison test!

[DonMega884]

I just bought a Titleist 983E 9.5' Driver for $25. I've been having trouble with my TM R7. I'll get it a whirl and let you know how I did when it arrives.

[dougnasty83]

I played a 975d for a long time and I always felt I had more control with that than any newer driver I've used.

[BigJae]

Do any of you remember Harvey Penicks little red and little green books? In one of them he said something to the effect of

~ if you want to drive a nail thru a board you use a hammer, not a rubber mallet ~

Perhaps we're all using rubber mallets? I'd like to think of mine as a SLEDGEHAMMER lol.