80 replies to this topic

[bobilishious2]

I was thinking through this the other day and I used to be a good driver of the ball in the late 1990's and my iron game was pretty good too.

Fast forward 10 years and my iron game is still pretty good (but I have a bit less curvature on my shots) but my driver is a real problem club.

I don't think it's the length of shaft however.

I have some footage of my play in a competition from the 1990's and most of my drives draw quite heavily (by today's standards).

My thought was that because all of todays technology is designed to hit the ball straighter (with less sidespin) have I perhaps misunderstood what i'm trying to do with my swing?

My swing was always in to out with the ball starting right and curving back. My bad shot used to be an overdraw but now it tends to be straight right.

My question is, am I just talking a load of rubbish or do you think what i'm saying makes some sense?

I've spent the last few years trying to correct my swing to start the ball much straighter (which I have achieved) but it only just occured to me that the technology might be having an effect.

[corky]

its the ball not the club.......

[zm231]

From my experience especially as of late I have found larger drivers harder for me to hit for some reason. Through the club I'm a member at and the fitting studio where I have gotten fit I have tried a lot of drivers. Overall I found it hard for me to gauge where the clubface is with the bigger clubs. This is most likely more of a mental thing but I had a lot of trouble hitting it both ways with the R11s. Tried it with a Fuji Motore 7.2 tour spec (one hell of a shaft might I add), but I fought the thing constantly going left.

[tbowles411]

I can speak for myself:  When I had a 355cc head, I literally couldn't miss.  It was easier to square at impact simply because there was less mass.  Yes, it wasn't as forgiving as they are now, but when you kept finding the center of the clubface , it was hard to argue the results.  I miss my KZG Gemini driver...

[bigtedrx]

I'm the same way. It used to be driver was my best club in the bag. I could put the ball anywhere I wanted. Now I can't hit a fairway and have had a new driver every year trying to find the newest best technology for my swing.

[bobilishious2]

corky, on 24 April 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

its the ball not the club.......

I thought about that as well. I used to play a Titleist balata and it was so much fun spinning it!

[Sinclair]

I play with all up-to-date clubs except for my driver. I only use my persimmon wood driver now after experimenting with several 460cc drivers. When I play with people I haven't played with ever they joke about what a "disadvantage" I'm forcing upon myself by playing with it. Then by the end of the round when I've hit almost every fairway and still put it out 270 they're pretty quiet. So, you're not crazy, it may just be that you prefer looking down at/hitting a smaller headed driver (maybe with a steel shaft). I'll take 15 yards shorter but much straighter any day than 300 yards and in the woods.

[sandman]

Timely post for me.  I was going through the same thinking and driving was always the strongest part of my game in the 90's also.  It has become the most troublesome lately so I decided to do an experiment with a smaller driver after trying everything you could do with the newer stuff. Tried shorter, longer, lighter and heavier with very mixed results.

Stepped into the Ping way back machine and picked up a WRX TISI Tech with the original ProForce shaft and driving has become fun again.  Had one of these years ago when everyone thought they were "toasters on a stick" and too large to be any good or a passing fad.     

Way easier to hit the center, longer and much more predictable than anything from the current crop of drivers I have.  My Tour Issued R7 and original R9 are a close 2nd for me, so the smaller heads just seem to be better for me.  

Turning the larger heads over is a weakness for me and with the smaller heads, my large side spin issues have pretty much disappeared. We'll see how long this Tech experiment keeps working, but for now, it sure seems to be the answer.

"Forgiveness" is a great selling term, but so far, I don't need it with the smaller heads.  

[royalgingerness]

I think both the ball and the club are having an impact here - The difference being that whilst I can still try a smaller headed driver, I don't have a supply of new condition Titleist Balatas or Professionals to compare against the latest Pro V1.

Personally, I struggle to close the face of the vast majority of larger headed drivers and still play a 510tp with a speeder 757 because its more consistent for me and almost as long as anything else I've tried. Whilst its hardly 1990s technology, it is considerably smaller than the 460cc offerings.

[ChrisD20]

never upgraded from my hogan cs-3 that I loved for years... until a few weeks ago when I bought the Razr Fit.  First Driver I had looked down on and really liked the shape and size of the thing,  The 460cc heads looked and swung like brooms for me but now this one just works.  I dont feel it in the air like I did the others and I smash the thing.  

I agree big drivers just feel odd and made my swing awful, but when you find one you like dont be afraid to try it

[kellygreen]

bobilishious2, on 24 April 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

I was thinking through this the other day and I used to be a good driver of the ball in the late 1990's and my iron game was pretty good too.

Fast forward 10 years and my iron game is still pretty good (but I have a bit less curvature on my shots) but my driver is a real problem club.

I don't think it's the length of shaft however.

I have some footage of my play in a competition from the 1990's and most of my drives draw quite heavily (by today's standards).

My thought was that because all of todays technology is designed to hit the ball straighter (with less sidespin) have I perhaps misunderstood what i'm trying to do with my swing?

My swing was always in to out with the ball starting right and curving back. My bad shot used to be an overdraw but now it tends to be straight right.

My question is, am I just talking a load of rubbish or do you think what i'm saying makes some sense?

I've spent the last few years trying to correct my swing to start the ball much straighter (which I have achieved) but it only just occured to me that the technology might be having an effect.

Both the golf ball and the driver are designed to play differently.    Differently from how they played back then, and differently than other clubs in the bag...and if your preferred tee shot used to be a push-draw in the 1990s...I can see why you might be having trouble.  

In the late 1990s, manufactures discovered that they could increase the distance of shots by increasing launch angle, and decreasing the amount of spin that the clubs and wound balls were generating.    Spin you needed  to help bring your shots back on line.

So both the ball and the driver have been increasingly engineered to reduce spin.     Every golf ball now has a solid core.   Drivers are now huge to maximize vertical gear effect, and push the COR limit so that you minimize spin imparted by impacting the clubface.  So you are no longer getting the sidespin you used to get.   You now just hit a push, instead of a push-draw.

I had trouble making the transition simply because of the size of the clubheads, and the changes in bulge-and-roll.    For the longest time I couldn't figure out why I had suddenly gone from a high-ball hitter with my driver, to hitting these low line-drives.  Why I could hit a 350-385 cc driver without a problem...but anything over 400cc I had difficutly flighting properly.   Like with the older drivers, I had been teeing the ball so that I could make center-face contact.

What I didn't realize, is that (as the drivers got bigger) the area of the face covered by the bulge-and-roll had expanded as well.    So if you teed the ball only to the point where you hit the center of the club face...and you were off just a bit....you would be hitting the ball on a part of the clubface with significantly LESS loft than what is stamped on the club head.   Lower launch...more spin....ball goes nowhere.  

Started (finally) teeing the ball higher, and putting the ball more forward in my stance so that I could catch the ball from the center-face UP....problem solved.

My diagnosis was confirmed when I got fitted recently for a 910 D3.  Caught one low on the face with the 9.5 I was trialling...and my launch angle for that shot was SIX DEGREES.  

With these clubs you have got to move the ball forwards, and tee the ball up.

[bluedot]

It's just you.

The correct loft in a 460 cc driver with a correct shaft make driving the golf ball so much easier than it used to be to the point of no comparison.  If you struggle with the driver, you need another driver that is properly fitted, or some really good instruction and practice.  You do NOT need a smaller clubhead.

[jmvargas]

you guys are overthinking this.....

......there is no way i am going back to the smaller heads on my drivers!!....

and i started with persimmons more than 50 years ago....

Edited by jmvargas, 24 April 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Golfunaddict]

From all the info I have picked up the ball is a major culprit here.
The way they are designed now the spin off a driver is negligible. You have to hit the kind of shots Bubba does to really get it to move like the bad old days.
Jack was talking bout this very thing just a few weeks back when he was asked about Bubba and his shot making.

Edited by Golfunaddict, 24 April 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[kellygreen]

jmvargas, on 24 April 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

you guys are overthinking this.....

......there is now way i am going back to the smaller heads on my drivers!!....

and i started with persimmons more than 50 years ago....

I, for one, am not saying that people need to switch back to a smaller driver.

My point is that drivers over 400cc play DIFFERENTLY than do smaller drivers...and you will struggle with them if you do not honor the differences.  

Tee the ball high....move the ball forwards so that you catch after the bottom of the swing.    Once I did that, I was fine.

[Greyboy]

Interestingly enough, when I used to play the Biggest Big Birtha with UST Pro Force 65 shaft in it, I was a much better driver of the golf ball.  The driver used to be my strength and it is clearly my weakness now.  Admittingly, I have gone though major swing changes and struggled over the years but even now, I hit my irons better than ever, and my driver worse than ever.

Strange.

[leoh923]

I think some of this is looking back with rose colored glasses. Everyone is saying how much better they hit it 10, 15, or more years ago. Hell, I did a lot of things better 15 years ago, not just hitting a golf ball. It may not be the old equipment that made us hit it better then, it might just be because we were 15 years younger.

[GooseHook]

Longer, larger headed drivers have a higher total MOI.  This means that some of these drivers may be require more effort to square at impact, compared to a smaller driver (lower MOI).  

angular momentum= MOI x Angular velocity



Length has a lot to do with this, although the clubhead does play a factor as well.

[Cobra Kai]

Interesting!

You know, I was literally just thinking about this exact thing while I was reading through the Adams XTD thread... I am SO much more consistent with my 3 wood and the rest of my clubs... I almost never slice ANY club but my driver.  And when I say slice... I mean slice. like 40-50 yards of slice.

Sometimes I can tame it and play a fade but other times even If im on the range and start the ball way left itll manage to get the trees on the right...

It kills me too because when I get everything going right and I put a big swing on it I can send one 290+.

My misses with my R11 3 wood are hooks...

[nova6868]

I hear what you guys are saying, but the solution is likely in approaching the clubs differently.

I had trouble with 460 at first, until I tweaked things around.

- Play the ball way far forward. Parallel with the middle of my forward foot.

- Tee the ball so that at least half the ball is completely above the clubhead.

- Close stance slightly.

- Forget about shaping shots. Go for the straight ball. If you need to curve a dogleg, either aim over it and bomb away or get a fairway wood you can shape.

However, I do agree that future drivers will, and perhaps should, range from 380-460 range.

Edited by nova6868, 24 April 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[MadGolfer76]

Every ten years or so, I find myself reminiscing about the good old days. I remember myself being younger, stronger, and more in control of my game each time. I must have been perfect when I was fifteen, because it has all been downhill from there.

[Toph84]

I think a lot of people just hear the term forgiveness thrown around so much and marketing hype about it that people think they can get away with a sloppier swing or spend less time at the range. They see that big head and remember how "forgiving" the driver is supposed to be and then try to swing out of their shoes, or rely too much on the equipment to do what it is advertised to do instead of really working on their swing mechanics or where the clubhead is at in their swing. Also, quite some time ago people were playing with metal shafts in drivers and the weight of the club was higher making it easier to track in your swing. Just my opinion.

[MarkFromTheUK]

The larger 460cc heads (and substantially larger sweetspots) have made it less of a necessity to hit it out of the middle, and in my view it results in lazy swings, where people feel they only need to make contact with the ball to get a decent result, with very little thought about where they are actually hitting it on the club face.

This is probably the reason why a lot of people (myself included) find it harder to hit a 3 wood with consistency than they did maybe 10-15 years ago, as 3 woods still require a certain amount of precision.

[jmvargas]

kellygreen, on 24 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

jmvargas, on 24 April 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

you guys are overthinking this.....

......there is no way i am going back to the smaller heads on my drivers!!....

and i started with persimmons more than 50 years ago....

I, for one, am not saying that people need to switch back to a smaller driver.

My point is that drivers over 400cc play DIFFERENTLY than do smaller drivers...and you will struggle with them if you do not honor the differences.  

Tee the ball high....move the ball forwards so that you catch after the bottom of the swing.    Once I did that, I was fine.

.......well said and absolutely correct!!!

[ShadJC]

The larger 460 cc drivers are clearly much easier to hit. It's not even close! If you can't hit them it's clearly a mental thing that you'll need to get over if you don't want to be at a significant disadvantage to other players today. I hate to be blunt, but there's absolutely no reason to revert back to old technology, especially in the driver, as that's the club where technology has made the most advances. I have a friend that I have played with for the last 15 years. We hit our drivers pretty much the same distance (he has a Mizuno and I had a Taylormade R7 TP), until this year. With the new Taylormade RBZ this year I am easily 20-25 yds by him and more accurate! The bigger heads may take some getting use to for some people, but it's clearly something everyone needs to do if they want an even playing field.

[reflog74]

Yeah, right.  The ball just goes too far and too straight to help us.  Please!

What's happened is that you've stopped practicing the "easy" stuff.

One man's .02

John

[Woodridge]

Here's why this game is goofy. The same guys who play the thin butter knive forged irons because they force you to 'focus' use huge 460cc drivers which allow you to make the laziest, sloppiest golf swing and still hit the fairway....

[KYMAR]

It's just you

[ShadJC]

Woodridge, on 24 April 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Here's why this game is goofy. The same guys who play the thin butter knive forged irons because they force you to 'focus' use huge 460cc drivers which allow you to make the laziest, sloppiest golf swing and still hit the fairway....

I don't play small forged muscleback irons because they "force me to focus". If you actually have to 'focus' in order to hit an iron well, you should not be hitting small traditional forged irons. I play them because I make good contact on a consistent basis, can feel what's going on in terms of ball contact (I love the feel), and we can 'work' the ball both directions when necessary. Being able to shape shots is critical to shooting low scores consistently, because you're not going to hit it great and play from the middle of the fairway everyday. Plus shaping shots is fun! So essentially feel, control, and versatility are the reasons why I play small forged irons. It's a completely different scenario when hitting a driver, when I just want it to able to swing for the fence and have it go as far and straight as possible! Not saying I don't want to be able to shape a tee shot when necessary, but generally, hitting the driver is one of the easier shots in golf today, specifically because of the larger-headed, light driver technology.

[ShadJC]

Although I have stated that the larger drivers are clearly a huge advantage today, I will stress that you have to have a high quality club that has the right head combination for you. The numbers are much more extreme today due to the advances in technology (more clubhead speed, ball speed, spin, etc.). If you have the wrong clubhead/shaft combination you can have very poor results. That's why it's very key to have assistance of a good launch monitor when buying a driver today. For example, the first RBZ driver I hit this year was a 9.5 degree with a standard stiff shaft and the FCT setting at normal. The club felt great and it felt like I was crushing it! However, the launch monitor showed that with my clubhead speed I was generating way too much backspin, way too much sidespin (hook), and the launch angle was really high. Although it felt like I was killing it, the numbers were showing a shot of only 280 yds with a lot of really high extreme right-to-left action. When I took the exact same head, put an x-stiff Matrix 'Ozik' HD6 shaft in it, and adjusted the FCT down to -1.5 degrees (effective loft of 8 degrees) with the most open face angle, it showed a consistently straight shot (slight draw), with less than half the back and side spin, equating to a shot consistently well over 300 yds. That club is in my bag now and the numbers didn't lie! I absolutely love the club! I'm hitting from places (good places) I've never been on courses I've played my whole life! Moral of the story, you can't judge all modern large-headed drivers based on the experience with one or a couple 'off-the-rack' clubs, because the shaft, effective loft, and face angle alone can make all the difference in the world. The ability of today's clubs to easily change shafts and the adjust club head playing specifications (lie, loft, face angle, moveable weights, etc) makes so much more critical to employ the services of a good club guy and a launch monitor when selecting the right driver.