54 replies to this topic

[Puppetmaster]

To the OP - how about this, without getting into what is possible and what is not, I tested 3 shafts in a 10.5* Razr Fit head, Ahina 70, DI-7, and Fubuki Alpha. With comparable ball speeds and AoA, launch angle on the Ahina was approx 11 degs, DI-7 was 14 degs, and Fubuki Alpha was 14 degs, while spin was approx 2,100 rpms, 2,500 rpms, and 2,800 rpms, respectively. Keeping in mind that everyone loads different shaft profiles differently, the DI-7 was higher launch (relative to the Ahina) and lower spin (relative to the Fubuki). That's what I think of when I think "high launch, low spin" - something that launches high(er), but with as low spin as possible given the launch angle and other shaft options. I really want to test the Fubuki K, Accra Tour Z and Tour Z LT as well, because those are supposed to behave similarly.

Edited by Puppetmaster, 23 April 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Howard Jones]

im sorry but you dont seems to understand me, or we are talking over each others head here.
YES spin raise if launch does ON THIS shaft, but the question was could 2 different shaft go different ways, one launching higher, but with less spin than the other
You will also see from this example that launch is raising much more than spin is in this 2 shots, and thats because this shaft eats spin.

If loft is 13, and AOA is 0 then launch should be 13, but its more than 16. The difference in launch is provided from the shaft, who adds dynamic loft
You said it yourself, you are not sure how i get that low spin from a loft of 13* , so could it be the shaft ? Yes it is.( and the next to neutral path to the ball)
Spin is NOT needed for distance, its for flight TIME who might give distance, but the more spin you got the less forward movement. We only got 100% power, now we have to use that power right, and if you look at the footprint one more time, you will see that we are still within the laws of physics. By theory we could still add 3-4 yards here to get into the deepest burgundy color
And for the record, its not me who is the player here, im the club fitter. (im a lousy player :-))

If 2 players who both plays DG changes to PX, they will both see higher launch and lower spin vs DG, so the trend will be the same for them both and that cant be denied.
I never saw anybody who was launching PX lower, than comparable DG, and i never saw anybody who spins more with PX vs DG, its always the other way around, so yes we can change shafts, but we cant get exactly the same numbers because we are not swinging the same, but the trend of change will be the same

[SHIVAN]

I like how the Fubuki K performs on course, for me.  Have not had a back to back demo to compare numbers to other shafts, but I am getting a TS 7.2 and intend to book some LM time to see what's up.  I also have a PX 7A3 to try out as well.  I'd like to give the AD DI 7x another run as well, but don't feel like dropping another $250++ to get one.

[Toph84]

the 7.2 TS is the best shaft I have ever laid hands on

[mac94]

Different high launch shafts can have slightly more or less spin, but NOT significantly more or less spin. And certainly not enough for one to realistically be called low spin. Perhaps lower spin than other high launch shafts but not low spin like true low spin shafts.

[bluedot]

Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

im sorry but you dont seems to understand me, or we are talking over each others head here.
YES spin raise if launch does ON THIS shaft, but the question was could 2 different shaft go different ways, one launching higher, but with less spin than the other
You will also see from this example that launch is raising much more than spin is in this 2 shots, and thats because this shaft eats spin.

If loft is 13, and AOA is 0 then launch should be 13, but its more than 16. The difference in launch is provided from the shaft, who adds dynamic loft
You said it yourself, you are not sure how i get that low spin from a loft of 13* , so could it be the shaft ? Yes it is.( and the next to neutral path to the ball)
Spin is NOT needed for distance, its for flight TIME who might give distance, but the more spin you got the less forward movement. We only got 100% power, now we have to use that power right, and if you look at the footprint one more time, you will see that we are still within the laws of physics. By theory we could still add 3-4 yards here to get into the deepest burgundy color
And for the record, its not me who is the player here, im the club fitter. (im a lousy player :-))

If 2 players who both plays DG changes to PX, they will both see higher launch and lower spin vs DG, so the trend will be the same for them both and that cant be denied.
I never saw anybody who was launching PX lower, than comparable DG, and i never saw anybody who spins more with PX vs DG, its always the other way around, so yes we can change shafts, but we cant get exactly the same numbers because we are not swinging the same, but the trend of change will be the same

HowardJones
Even Grafalloy doesn't make the claim that the PFC 50 (which they market as mid to high launch) is a low spin shaft.  They don't sell the shaft retail, and the vast majority of golfers seeking the holy grail of high launch/low spin have never heard of the shaft.  Which, of course, doesn't mean that it isn't a very, very good product, but if it really had the properties you say, it would lead Grafalloy's marketing.  Which it doesn't...

There simply aren't any physics to explain how a shaft can "eat spin".  There is lots of science to explain how loft and shafts can increase or decrease launch angles, but on every industry chart the correlation between launch angle and spin rates is direct.  Might there be slight differences in spin rates at the same launch angle?  Of course, and I'll go as high as 10% +/-; I've seen this with different shafts and the same head on Trackman.  

BUT (and this is back to the OP) the impact of two different high launch shafts on spin rates is minimal.  For the most part, players with average swing speeds will benefit from a higher loft with a mid launch shaft, which is exactly what you used to fit the individual whose Trackman data you posted.

[Big Ben]

GooseHook, on 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I searched near and far for this univcorn, playing shafts such as the Kiyoshi, and Axivcore Black.  I came to the conclusions that others had above and determined that if I were to get the launch I wanted, spin was coming with it.

I ended up going with more loft on my new driver, and a lower launch/spin shaft.  THIS is how to achieve a high/low combo.  The driver head will have more to contribute to this than the shaft!



**For what it's worth, the Kiyoshi is more of a mid launch shaft.

BINGO! That's been my approach and it really opens the door to sweet shaft options, I'm addicted to 10.5*-11.5* drivers now. However, if you spin the poop out of the ball and launch it too the moon already with your 8.5* driver this method probably won't jive, strictly for us launch challenged folk...BB

Edited by Big Ben, 24 April 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[imaplus3wannaplay]

I have yet to find this much desired combo, but I can tell you from my experience in fitting a vast number of players... the closest I have found to a high launch low spinner is the Attas T2 and Attas 3.  I can always seem to fit players wanting a little higher launch with the Attas and not kill their spin numbers.  Just last week I fit a tour player with the Attas T2 3360 6X.  He was gaming the DI6.  It took his launch from 11.3 to 13.7 and brought his spin down from 2800 to 2680.  I was shocked!!!  He went from dropping 310 yard bombs to 325 yard bombs in about 3 minutes.  I'm sure these results won't be across the board for everyone.  I suggest getting fit to find the best combo.  Not too many fitters will have an Attas lying around to test as they aren't cheap.

Edited by imaplus3wannaplay, 23 April 2012 - 11:30 PM.

[pdaero]

At least what I've experienced is that the Axivcore Black (69 especially) is a higher launching, lower spinning shaft. Granted I don't spin the top off of the ball, but I changed away to something that launched lower and spun more to maximize my carry and overall distance. I was able to hit some BOMBS with that shaft, but IIRC every time it occurred I hit down slightly on the ball, launching lower and spinning more, of course. A standard approach into the ball, unless I swung hard, launched nicely but just didn't have enough spin to carry as far as I wanted.

[GooseHook]

Big Ben, on 23 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

GooseHook, on 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I searched near and far for this univcorn, playing shafts such as the Kiyoshi, and Axivcore Black.  I came to the conclusions that others had above and determined that if I were to get the launch I wanted, spin was coming with it.

I ended up going with more loft on my new driver, and a lower launch/spin shaft.  THIS is how to achieve a high/low combo.  The driver head will have more to contribute to this than the shaft!



**For what it's worth, the Kiyoshi is more of a mid launch shaft.

BINGO! That's been my approach and it really opens the door to sweet shaft options, I'm addicted to 10.5*-11.5* drivers now. However, if you spin the poop out of the ball and launch it too the moon already with your 8.5* driver this method probably won't jive, stickily for us launch challenged folk...BB

Indeed! In some cases, it's probably more of a case of folks having an incorrect loft in the first place.  For guys that come somewhat neutral into the ball, like me, it's nice knowing you don't have to help the ball in the air.

[Puppetmaster]

GooseHook, on 24 April 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Indeed! In some cases, it's probably more of a case of folks having an incorrect loft in the first place.  For guys that come somewhat neutral into the ball, like me, it's nice knowing you don't have to help the ball in the air.

This is a good point. While I've had success with a +5* AoA,  9.5* driver and low launch low spin shafts, I'm now coming into the ball around +2* and contemplating moving to 10.5*.

[Jameson465]

i put a Kyioshi in my D3 and i dont care what launch it is this is the best combo i have ever hit its perfect for me...... i hit the ball low and it seems like med/high launch to me but i know the claims...... best shaft for ME i have ever hit......

now to my 3wood that's another subject...

[Big Ben]

Puppetmaster, on 24 April 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

GooseHook, on 24 April 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Indeed! In some cases, it's probably more of a case of folks having an incorrect loft in the first place.  For guys that come somewhat neutral into the ball, like me, it's nice knowing you don't have to help the ball in the air.

This is a good point. While I've had success with a +5* AoA,  9.5* driver and low launch low spin shafts, I'm now coming into the ball around +2* and contemplating moving to 10.5*.

Exactly! It's not simply a shaft but a combination of factors which allow this mythical phenomenon to occur...BB

Edited by Big Ben, 24 April 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[mdb0103]

SwooshLT, on 22 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

k b, on 22 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

AXIVCore black.

best shaft i've used in terms of flight vs roll out.

+1 on this shaft

+2. One of my favorites.

[forgeweld]

I too have a 9015d that I got off the bts boards here to refinish and am now trying to find a shaft to put in it.  But I don't have a problem getting the ball air born.  So I need a low launch low spin shaft.  I don't have a ton to spend on it, say maybe 75.00-100.00 bucks.  Originally was thinking in the prolaunch red direction,  But I've seen some people around here talking about an xcaliber tour.  But I've never hit one.  Some other boards like the proforce v2.  My ss is 114-117,  And I carry 268-272 but don't roll out more than 10 yds.  (it seems).   I currently game a matrix x-con 6.1(stiff) in a adams fast-11 9.5*.  I actually like this club a lot  and only pick up the 9015d as a refinishing project.  So I'm willing to take a chance on a shaft.   You guys got any advice.  Plus a shaft that looks real good is also a plus .

[iTRY]

Absolutely LOVE my Miyazaki Indigo ......black could be a good choice too, super smooth feeling shafts

[SurfinTurf]

rl4673, on 23 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

jcosjrgolf, on 22 April 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

shallowdivots, on 22 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I am looking for a high launch low spin shaft to put in my 9015d and looking for some suggestions.  What do you suggest and what has your experience been with the shaft??  

Altus LT

This.  The Altus LT is what you're looking for.

Had an LT for two weeks in a TEE CB2 3 wood. Then it snapped on me and I'm still sick about it.

Best high launch low spin shaft I've ever had my hands on.

[bpark1210]

Miyazaki White is your ticket. I put one in a J40 445 10.5 and one of the best combo's I have had.

[ShowMe]

Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

lenrex, on 23 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

If you look at the Titleist shaft chart, you can see that launch and spin correlate pretty proportionally.

http://www.titleist....tom_Options.pdf

low launch = low spin
mid launch = mid spin
high launch = high spin

What I would look for in a high launching shaft is low torque.  That will keep your dispersion in check.  I like the ilima shafts for that purpose.  I also just got a Fubuki Tour for my R11, haven't hit it yet, But I'd expect it to launch just a tad lower than the ilima.

Kaili didn't launch all that much lower than the ilima, I just didn't like the bend profile of the higher kickpoint.

I haven't hit a real Altus in a driver, but if they're anything like the Altus Hybrids, They'll go lower than an ilima.  I have Altus HB shafts in my R11 rescues.  I have them set to 'higher' and they still produce a penetrating flight

Torque have no influence on ball flight at all. The time the ball is on the face is to short for the club head to twist, and long time before that happen, the ball is long gone.
Torque is a feel parameter only, not a performance issue, thats an old myth like many other things in this game. Just a few years ago, designers could not get TQ low enough, and when they did, they found out that all they achieved was a harsh feel from of center hits. Today's top of the line models got much higher TQ than just a few years ago, and this is the reason. Today's top level players demands both performance and feel, and the trend is clear, they all wants a softer feel, so shafts is made with a higher TQ. Just look at Grafalloys flagship, the Project X Tour Issue. Nobody will have bought a high performance shaft with 3.5 TQ because how could that perform well ?. Now we know it does, because TQ is NOT a performance parameter at all.

Au contraire, Mr. "Things Can Only Get Better."  Torque has a huge influence on ball flight.  Go hit a driver that has a shaft with 2.5* of torque and then that same driver with a shaft that has 4.5* of torque and see for yourself.

[nmanoles3]

Kiyoshi is higher launch than other shafts with comparable spins. However, I wouldnt consider it a high launch.
After reading this thread, I have the urge to replace the whiteboard with a axivcore black for my 3 wood

[Howard Jones]

ShowMe, on 21 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

lenrex, on 23 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

If you look at the Titleist shaft chart, you can see that launch and spin correlate pretty proportionally.

http://www.titleist....tom_Options.pdf

low launch = low spin
mid launch = mid spin
high launch = high spin

What I would look for in a high launching shaft is low torque.  That will keep your dispersion in check.  I like the ilima shafts for that purpose.  I also just got a Fubuki Tour for my R11, haven't hit it yet, But I'd expect it to launch just a tad lower than the ilima.

Kaili didn't launch all that much lower than the ilima, I just didn't like the bend profile of the higher kickpoint.

I haven't hit a real Altus in a driver, but if they're anything like the Altus Hybrids, They'll go lower than an ilima.  I have Altus HB shafts in my R11 rescues.  I have them set to 'higher' and they still produce a penetrating flight

Torque have no influence on ball flight at all. The time the ball is on the face is to short for the club head to twist, and long time before that happen, the ball is long gone.
Torque is a feel parameter only, not a performance issue, thats an old myth like many other things in this game. Just a few years ago, designers could not get TQ low enough, and when they did, they found out that all they achieved was a harsh feel from of center hits. Today's top of the line models got much higher TQ than just a few years ago, and this is the reason. Today's top level players demands both performance and feel, and the trend is clear, they all wants a softer feel, so shafts is made with a higher TQ. Just look at Grafalloys flagship, the Project X Tour Issue. Nobody will have bought a high performance shaft with 3.5 TQ because how could that perform well ?. Now we know it does, because TQ is NOT a performance parameter at all.

Au contraire, Mr. "Things Can Only Get Better."  Torque has a huge influence on ball flight.  Go hit a driver that has a shaft with 2.5* of torque and then that same driver with a shaft that has 4.5* of torque and see for yourself.

I hope you are aware of that there is no such options where TQ is the only difference, so the test cant be done.
- IF TQ has a big influence on ball flight, why have i never seen it in my Golf lab ? I do high end fitting as a job, its not a hobby in my back yard.
And dont give me that UST VTS story again. That horse is beaten to death already, because there is also flex and deflection differences in the VTS series, so they dont prove that TQ made the difference. There are so many other parameter that shall fit the player before TQ becomes a subject, if it becomes a subject at all.

The PFC Graphite shaft ive been telling you about, is impressing players every day when lowering spin is wanted, so instead of arguing that you never heard of it, contact your closest PFC dealer and check it out. http://performancefi...x.php?j=locator

@Jaskanski (who is banned from the forum at the moment) got one in the mail to UK last week. He will be testing it in a Trackman this weekend so im waiting for his response and the numbers he gets from it, since you dont seems to believe what i try to tell you.

[SurfinTurf]

Howard Jones, on 22 June 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

ShowMe, on 21 June 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Torque have no influence on ball flight at all. The time the ball is on the face is to short for the club head to twist, and long time before that happen, the ball is long gone.
Torque is a feel parameter only, not a performance issue, thats an old myth like many other things in this game. Just a few years ago, designers could not get TQ low enough, and when they did, they found out that all they achieved was a harsh feel from of center hits. Today's top of the line models got much higher TQ than just a few years ago, and this is the reason. Today's top level players demands both performance and feel, and the trend is clear, they all wants a softer feel, so shafts is made with a higher TQ. Just look at Grafalloys flagship, the Project X Tour Issue. Nobody will have bought a high performance shaft with 3.5 TQ because how could that perform well ?. Now we know it does, because TQ is NOT a performance parameter at all.

Au contraire, Mr. "Things Can Only Get Better."  Torque has a huge influence on ball flight.  Go hit a driver that has a shaft with 2.5* of torque and then that same driver with a shaft that has 4.5* of torque and see for yourself.

I hope you are aware of that there is no such options where TQ is the only difference, so the test cant be done.
- IF TQ has a big influence on ball flight, why have i never seen it in my Golf lab ? I do high end fitting as a job, its not a hobby in my back yard.
And dont give me that UST VTS story again. That horse is beaten to death already, because there is also flex and deflection differences in the VTS series, so they dont prove that TQ made the difference. There are so many other parameter that shall fit the player before TQ becomes a subject, if it becomes a subject at all.

The PFC Graphite shaft ive been telling you about, is impressing players every day when lowering spin is wanted, so instead of arguing that you never heard of it, contact your closest PFC dealer and check it out. http://performancefi...x.php?j=locator

@Jaskanski (who is banned from the forum at the moment) got one in the mail to UK last week. He will be testing it in a Trackman this weekend so im waiting for his response and the numbers he gets from it, since you dont seems to believe what i try to tell you.

Hi there Mr. ShowMe

Howard will be taking you to school today. Grab a shinny red apple on your way out the door.

[Colum]

Axivcore Black is worth a look

[m5power]

There's only one real solution. Find a lowest spinning head you can find, put in a lowest spinning shaft. But go up a loft or 2 in the aforementioned head. That's the only way you can get high launch low spin. Not from a shaft

[GooseHook]

Howard, the VTS is a shaft where you can compare torque. UST determined the only difference was that the right torque, although purely based on a golfer's preference, can yield better results.

A detailed review by dlefty on the boards showed that in a couple cases, higher torque resulted in lower launch and spin. It's a big case of YMMV.