54 replies to this topic

[shallowdivots]

I am looking for a high launch low spin shaft to put in my 9015d and looking for some suggestions.  What do you suggest and what has your experience been with the shaft??  

[MadGolfer76]

I don't believe there is any such thing as a shaft that is both high launch and low spin. In any case, lots of people have had success with the Harrison Saga in that head, including me.

[jcosjrgolf]

 shallowdivots, on 22 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I am looking for a high launch low spin shaft to put in my 9015d and looking for some suggestions.  What do you suggest and what has your experience been with the shaft??  

Altus LT

[MikeC732]

Oban Kiyoshi?

[mac94]

When you find it, let me know. Because I will contract with you to also find El Dorado, Atlantis, and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[k b]

AXIVCore black.

best shaft i've used in terms of flight vs roll out.

[SwooshLT]

 k b, on 22 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

AXIVCore black.

best shaft i've used in terms of flight vs roll out.

+1 on this shaft

[marrigo]

As alluded to in several other responses what you are looking for is impossible. The shaft profile determines how it flexes through impact, creating dynamic loft. The difference in the amount of dynamic loft will determine how much higher or lower a particular shaft will launch and spin than another. If dynamic loft is increased it will launch and spin more, if decreased it will launch and spin less. No way around it.  There's a very good thread by Tom Wishon on shaft myths and the one of them is the fabled high launch/low spin shaft.

[shallowdivots]

I know there is no such thing as a high launch low spin shaft so let me rephrase my question...what is the highest launch with the lowest spin?

[ladahl]

^this^


If your SS isn't over like 95 w/ a driver and you don't mind a lighter shaft,  you could even get away with an Oban Devotion 50 gram (lots cheaper)

[dunn]

Tour ad di6 is spec out as a high launch low spinning shaft and I believe there are others as well

[Howard Jones]

The story about "there is no such thing as...." is not all black and white, so stop those silly comments please.

I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that PX both launch higher and spin less than comparable Dynamic Gold ?
I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that True Temper spinner launches lower but spin more than S200/Wedge flex ?
How can that be, if spin always follow launch 1:1

Would someone please explain to me why there is shafts who dont follow the "laws" here?


PFC Graphite 50 and 60 series adds quite a lot of dynamic loft, but spin is still in the lower end.
http://www.performan...=article&id=106

Edited by Howard Jones, 23 April 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[Yellow Jacket]

For my money, Fubuki is the epitome of high launch/low spin.

[chri55]

Another vote for Axivcore black.  I used one in a 9015d and it was a long and great feeling combo.  And tough to beat the price too.

Edited by chri55, 23 April 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[krj122]

Diamana 'ilima. Have it in my d3

[rl4673]

 jcosjrgolf, on 22 April 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

 shallowdivots, on 22 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I am looking for a high launch low spin shaft to put in my 9015d and looking for some suggestions.  What do you suggest and what has your experience been with the shaft??  

Altus LT

This.  The Altus LT is what you're looking for.

[PaulBoy]

Oban's Kiyoshi has been mentioned above - It's medium launch, but I can tweak my aaa to get a high launch out of mine (well I could in my TM Supertri) - I have just had a 910 sleeve fitted to try in my D3 so apart from 1x range session today I haven't used it! - As far as low spin is concened the Kiyoshi is exceptional ime - I had a Devotion before it & it is a reknowned 'spin killer' - The Kiyoshi has been as good, if not better, than the Devotion at killing the spin for me
Good luck with whatever you decide to try ... Paul

[jokerusn]

A few that have worked well for me:

Altus LT (like previously stated)
Fubuki Tour (also previously stated)
Miyazaki Kusala White (best feeling shaft ever IMO)
Original Altus (the one with the impossibly thin butt end)

Haven't tried the Kiyoshi, GD DI or any of the Axivcores, though.

Edited by jokerusn, 23 April 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[GooseHook]

I searched near and far for this univcorn, playing shafts such as the Kiyoshi, and Axivcore Black.  I came to the conclusions that others had above and determined that if I were to get the launch I wanted, spin was coming with it.

I ended up going with more loft on my new driver, and a lower launch/spin shaft.  THIS is how to achieve a high/low combo.  The driver head will have more to contribute to this than the shaft!



**For what it's worth, the Kiyoshi is more of a mid launch shaft.

[ladahl]

Agreed.. I play a 10.5 loft with this shaft to acheive this too...  The higher loft does seem to help with side-spin on less than idel swings, as well...  

 GooseHook, on 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I searched near and far for this univcorn, playing shafts such as the Kiyoshi, and Axivcore Black.  I came to the conclusions that others had above and determined that if I were to get the launch I wanted, spin was coming with it.

I ended up going with more loft on my new driver, and a lower launch/spin shaft.  THIS is how to achieve a high/low combo.  The driver head will have more to contribute to this than the shaft!



**For what it's worth, the Kiyoshi is more of a mid launch shaft.

[bluedot]

 Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

The story about "there is no such thing as...." is not all black and white, so stop those silly comments please.

I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that PX both launch higher and spin less than comparable Dynamic Gold ?
I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that True Temper spinner launches lower but spin more than S200/Wedge flex ?
How can that be, if spin always follow launch 1:1

Would someone please explain to me why there is shafts who dont follow the "laws" here?


PFC Graphite 50 and 60 series adds quite a lot of dynamic loft, but spin is still in the lower end.
http://www.performan...=article&id=106

Nobody ever said that there are NO spin differences between various shafts that launch at approximately the same angle.

BUT those spin differences are relatively insignificant as a percentage of total spin; that's a fact that can and has been verified here many, many times, including the previously referenced thread by Tom Wishon.  Players who are looking for a significant change to their spin rate just won't achieve much without significantly changing the launch angle.  It is pointless and incorrect to argue otherwise.

That companies market a shaft as "high launch, low spin" may be good business, but it is very misleading physics.

The best way to achieve high launch, low spin is through a swing with a correct angle of attack.

The best way THROUGH EQUIPMENT for MOST players to achieve high launch with lower spin will be with added loft on the driver combined with a mid or low launch shaft, instead of less loft with a shaft that has a more active tip.  But the advantage of the first setup is probably going to be better accuracy much more than it will be more distance through less spin; the spin rate changes are going to be small and relatively insignificant.

[lenrex]

If you look at the Titleist shaft chart, you can see that launch and spin correlate pretty proportionally.

http://www.titleist....tom_Options.pdf

low launch = low spin
mid launch = mid spin
high launch = high spin

What I would look for in a high launching shaft is low torque.  That will keep your dispersion in check.  I like the ilima shafts for that purpose.  I also just got a Fubuki Tour for my R11, haven't hit it yet, But I'd expect it to launch just a tad lower than the ilima.

Kaili didn't launch all that much lower than the ilima, I just didn't like the bend profile of the higher kickpoint.

I haven't hit a real Altus in a driver, but if they're anything like the Altus Hybrids, They'll go lower than an ilima.  I have Altus HB shafts in my R11 rescues.  I have them set to 'higher' and they still produce a penetrating flight

[mwink822]

As immediately above, higher flight necessarily requires higher spin.  That said, some shafts that you may want to look at for higher launch while still keeping something of a penetrating ball flight are the Diamana Red Board, Diamana 'ilima, Fujikura Rombax X (shaft series not flex), and UST AXIV Black.  Any of those ought to serve you pretty well.

[Toph84]

Fubuki K Series

[KYMAR]

 GooseHook, on 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

I searched near and far for this univcorn, playing shafts such as the Kiyoshi, and Axivcore Black.  I came to the conclusions that others had above and determined that if I were to get the launch I wanted, spin was coming with it.

I ended up going with more loft on my new driver, and a lower launch/spin shaft. THIS is how to achieve a high/low combo.  The driver head will have more to contribute to this than the shaft!



**For what it's worth, the Kiyoshi is more of a mid launch shaft.

+1
I went 10.5 in my 9015D with a Stiff, tipped 1",  PL Red and it has been very good from a launch and spin perspective.

[Howard Jones]

 bluedot, on 23 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

 Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

The story about "there is no such thing as...." is not all black and white, so stop those silly comments please.

I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that PX both launch higher and spin less than comparable Dynamic Gold ?
I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that True Temper spinner launches lower but spin more than S200/Wedge flex ?
How can that be, if spin always follow launch 1:1

Would someone please explain to me why there is shafts who dont follow the "laws" here?

PFC Graphite 50 and 60 series adds quite a lot of dynamic loft, but spin is still in the lower end.
http://www.performan...=article&id=106

Nobody ever said that there are NO spin differences between various shafts that launch at approximately the same angle.

BUT those spin differences are relatively insignificant as a percentage of total spin; that's a fact that can and has been verified here many, many times, including the previously referenced thread by Tom Wishon.  Players who are looking for a significant change to their spin rate just won't achieve much without significantly changing the launch angle.  It is pointless and incorrect to argue otherwise.

That companies market a shaft as "high launch, low spin" may be good business, but it is very misleading physics.

The best way to achieve high launch, low spin is through a swing with a correct angle of attack.

The best way THROUGH EQUIPMENT for MOST players to achieve high launch with lower spin will be with added loft on the driver combined with a mid or low launch shaft, instead of less loft with a shaft that has a more active tip.  But the advantage of the first setup is probably going to be better accuracy much more than it will be more distance through less spin; the spin rate changes are going to be small and relatively insignificant.

Well the general opinion seems to be that spin and launch goes hand in hand and that you cant add launch without adding spin, and i disagree with that.

Ive showed this case before, and i will put it up again and you folks tell me what you read from this numbers. Its more that just a bit of dynamic loft added, but spin is still low, and the reason is not a positive angle of attack. My point is, there is more to it, and its not all black or white, and the difference from shaft to shaft might be much larger than you think is possible.

Key numbers (Average)
Club speed 89,6 Mph
Ball speed 134,6 Mph
PTR/Smash 1:50
Angle of attack -0.2*
Club head loft 13* (hand picked true loft)
Dynamic loft 17,4*
Launch angle 16.1*
Spin rate 1843 rpm
Descent/Land angle 32.9*
Carry 215.6 yards ( 197.1 meters)
Total 247.3 yards ( 226,1 meter )

Club head is Wishon 919 THi
Shaft is Grafalloy PFC 50 R
Impact spot was the absolute center of face using a dot from a Whiteboard pen on the ball (NXT Tour)

Screen shots from my Trackman
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359095
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359096


If you study the difference on this to shots, launch angle vary from 15.2 to 16.9 (1.7*)  
Dynamic loft vary from16.5 to 18.4 (1.9*)
Attack is 0.0 and -0.4 (0.4*)
Spin vary from 1753 to 1933 (180 Rpm)

[Howard Jones]

 lenrex, on 23 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

If you look at the Titleist shaft chart, you can see that launch and spin correlate pretty proportionally.

http://www.titleist....tom_Options.pdf

low launch = low spin
mid launch = mid spin
high launch = high spin

What I would look for in a high launching shaft is low torque.  That will keep your dispersion in check.  I like the ilima shafts for that purpose.  I also just got a Fubuki Tour for my R11, haven't hit it yet, But I'd expect it to launch just a tad lower than the ilima.

Kaili didn't launch all that much lower than the ilima, I just didn't like the bend profile of the higher kickpoint.

I haven't hit a real Altus in a driver, but if they're anything like the Altus Hybrids, They'll go lower than an ilima.  I have Altus HB shafts in my R11 rescues.  I have them set to 'higher' and they still produce a penetrating flight

Torque have no influence on ball flight at all. The time the ball is on the face is to short for the club head to twist, and long time before that happen, the ball is long gone.
Torque is a feel parameter only, not a performance issue, thats an old myth like many other things in this game. Just a few years ago, designers could not get TQ low enough, and when they did, they found out that all they achieved was a harsh feel from of center hits. Today's top of the line models got much higher TQ than just a few years ago, and this is the reason. Today's top level players demands both performance and feel, and the trend is clear, they all wants a softer feel, so shafts is made with a higher TQ. Just look at Grafalloys flagship, the Project X Tour Issue. Nobody will have bought a high performance shaft with 3.5 TQ because how could that perform well ?. Now we know it does, because TQ is NOT a performance parameter at all.

[bluedot]

 Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

 bluedot, on 23 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

 Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

The story about "there is no such thing as...." is not all black and white, so stop those silly comments please.

I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that PX both launch higher and spin less than comparable Dynamic Gold ?
I guess ALL members on the WRX will agree to that True Temper spinner launches lower but spin more than S200/Wedge flex ?
How can that be, if spin always follow launch 1:1

Would someone please explain to me why there is shafts who dont follow the "laws" here?

PFC Graphite 50 and 60 series adds quite a lot of dynamic loft, but spin is still in the lower end.
http://www.performan...=article&id=106

Nobody ever said that there are NO spin differences between various shafts that launch at approximately the same angle.

BUT those spin differences are relatively insignificant as a percentage of total spin; that's a fact that can and has been verified here many, many times, including the previously referenced thread by Tom Wishon.  Players who are looking for a significant change to their spin rate just won't achieve much without significantly changing the launch angle.  It is pointless and incorrect to argue otherwise.

That companies market a shaft as "high launch, low spin" may be good business, but it is very misleading physics.

The best way to achieve high launch, low spin is through a swing with a correct angle of attack.

The best way THROUGH EQUIPMENT for MOST players to achieve high launch with lower spin will be with added loft on the driver combined with a mid or low launch shaft, instead of less loft with a shaft that has a more active tip.  But the advantage of the first setup is probably going to be better accuracy much more than it will be more distance through less spin; the spin rate changes are going to be small and relatively insignificant.

Well the general opinion seems to be that spin and launch goes hand in hand and that you cant add launch without adding spin, and i disagree with that.

Ive showed this case before, and i will put it up again and you folks tell me what you read from this numbers. Its more that just a bit of dynamic loft added, but spin is still low, and the reason is not a positive angle of attack. My point is, there is more to it, and its not all black or white, and the difference from shaft to shaft might be much larger than you think is possible.

Key numbers (Average)
Club speed 89,6 Mph
Ball speed 134,6 Mph
PTR/Smash 1:50
Angle of attack -0.2*
Club head loft 13* (hand picked true loft)
Dynamic loft 17,4*
Launch angle 16.1*
Spin rate 1843 rpm
Descent/Land angle 32.9*
Carry 215.6 yards ( 197.1 meters)
Total 247.3 yards ( 226,1 meter )

Club head is Wishon 919 THi
Shaft is Grafalloy PFC 50 R
Impact spot was the absolute center of face using a dot from a Whiteboard pen on the ball (NXT Tour)

Screen shots from my Trackman
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359095
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359096


If you study the difference on this to shots, launch angle vary from 15.2 to 16.9 (1.7*)  
Dynamic loft vary from16.5 to 18.4 (1.9*)
Attack is 0.0 and -0.4 (0.4*)
Spin vary from 1753 to 1933 (180 Rpm)

Howard Jones,
Am I missing something, or are you comparing one clubhead/shaft combo to itself?  Are both lines on the screen captures the Wishon head and the Grafalloy shaft that you provide in your post?  If it is one clubhead/shaft combo, then you are showing exactly what I've experienced in golf; my swing changes by the moment!  If not, what was the other club?

In any case, you show a higher launch spinning more, a lower launch spinning less, which is exactly what everyone has been saying!  Show me the higher launch spinning LESS and we'll have something!

Since you asked what we can read from the numbers, I'll admit that I don't know what to make of them; they are odd in my experience, to say the least.  The spin rates for a 3W, even 13*,  launched at +/- 16* with a negative AOA are just incredibly low.  PGA Tour pros launch 9* drivers with more spin than that with a 3-5* positive AOA.  Not sure how you could do that., but whatever.

The distance numbers that you are getting, both carry and overall, are quite good for a 3W with a sub-90 mph clubhead speed and a 130ish ball speed.  This is where the spin rate thing really puzzles me; those balls should be dropping out of the sky because of too little spin to create sufficient lift; makes me wonder about the accuracy of the Trackman in that particular item.  I have seen that before, btw.

But here is the bottom line, at least to me: the two shots (or averages?) end up EXACTLY one-half yard apart!  The higher/more spin one had more carry, the lower more roll, but the overall was identical.  The holy grail of high launch, low spin is to get more distance, and you do not show that here.

[Howard Jones]

Ohh im sorry but the club is marked as 3W but its a 13* driver, and both shots is with the same shaft/head combo

and LOL....this numbers is the very best ive seen at this ball speed, and they are indeed high launch low spin (IMO)
Here is a foot print of Trackmans algorithm for 90 Mph club speed

Deeper red color is longer shot
http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/361202/full
(The blue mark is placed too low, it should have been above the 16* line)

Here is Trackmans published optimum numbers
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359394


Trackman sais that maximum carry from 90 Mph club speed with 5* positive AOA is 214 yards, and this player got 215,6 yards with 0* AOA so i dont think they can be improved.
But you have noticed my point, spin is very low, but launch is not, but you dont think launch is high in this case ? (just look at optimum numbers and compare them)

Higher launch spinning less was the first i told you about further up.
Compare a PX to DG and you got it. I do that compare since most in here should know those shafts, so its a well known example for that spin and launch do not follow 1:1, and that you can increase launch and go down on spin, and the combo above tells same. During fitting we tested higher loft, but we lost both carry and total distance from to much spin, so this was the very best we could get out of it.

[bluedot]

 Howard Jones, on 23 April 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Ohh im sorry but the club is marked as 3W but its a 13* driver, and both shots is with the same shaft/head combo

and LOL....this numbers is the very best ive seen at this ball speed, and they are indeed high launch low spin (IMO)
Here is a foot print of Trackmans algorithm for 90 Mph club speed

Deeper red color is longer shot
http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/361202/full
(The blue mark is placed too low, it should have been above the 16* line)

Here is Trackmans published optimum numbers
http://peecee.dk/upload/view/359394


Trackman sais that maximum carry from 90 Mph club speed with 5* positive AOA is 214 yards, and this player got 215,6 yards with 0* AOA so i dont think they can be improved.
But you have noticed my point, spin is very low, but launch is not, but you dont think launch is high in this case ? (just look at optimum numbers and compare them)

Higher launch spinning less was the first i told you about further up.
Compare a PX to DG and you got it. I do that compare since most in here should know those shafts, so its a well known example for that spin and launch do not follow 1:1, and that you can increase launch and go down on spin, and the combo above tells same. During fitting we tested higher loft, but we lost both carry and total distance from to much spin, so this was the very best we could get out of it.

This is ONE club for ONE player, which is what optimization is all about.  I'm still not sure how you got these spin rates with a negative angle of attack and a 13* head, much less how the ball carries that far with those rates in defiance of the laws of physics, but it was NOT because of the shaft.  And the high launch angle is obviously due to the 13* clubhead; the shaft's bend profile is very, very secondary to that loft.

And I'll say it again: in your example, the higher launch spins more, not less. The fact that you as an individual golfer produce low spin with a high launch does NOT mean that another player can change shafts and achieve as high or higher launch with significantly lower spin rates, which was the original question.  That sort of a shaft simply isn't possible.