43 replies to this topic

[twiglet]

Hi all, this is my first post(avid reader).
My son has just started junior nights on Friday's at Oswestry golf course in England (Woosnams second home course). There is a young lad that he has played with quite a few times for practice. This lad is a likeable lad and a tidy little player. He is better than my lad generally and they get on well. The one thing he does that really gets on my goat is cheat!!! Now for my sons dilemma. He has been drawn in the first round of the junior matchplay with this lad and i'm not pleased. They played this past Friday and my son said this lad was not playing well through 7. He came past the club house and told his mom he was not feeling well so she pulled him off the course. I have since found out that this has been happening a lot lately. He will take another shot in practice rounds and choose the better result to play from, but will not count this on his score. He will say to my son if he gets a bad score on a hole that if he gives him a five instead of six, then my son can put a four instead of five. The problem i have is that because he comes in with such low scores that he is the blue eyed boy as far as the junior organiser is concerned. This is not sour grapes on my part, i quite like the lad.
I just do not see why my lad should be having to watch out for him cheating whilst he is trying to play his game. Any advice on my options would be appreciated

[jaskanski]

So the match against your son's opponent hasn't been played yet? Sounds like poor form on your part for accusing some lad of cheating without much proof prior to playing against a match against your son, who by your own admission probably isn't quite such a good player. Sour grapes indeed. Sounds like you need to man up and leave the match to take it's natural course without dear old dad interfering on his largely innocent sons behalf. If your son plays his OWN game and plays well then he should have no problem. Perhaps you should wear a pair of school shorts and play his match for him? Sad.

[twiglet]

This is my first post on here and you have just made me out to be something i'm not. I find your post quite offensive. This lad is known by quite a few players( some of whom are quite a bit older than my son)  to be a cheat. Perhaps he has pressure from home to post low scores, i do not know. The new pro started this Friday and his son played a threesome with said player and my son. He remarked to my son that this lad has cheated at another course and this is the first time he has met him. Sour grapes? I do not think so. Fair play- definitely.

[jaskanski]

You need to let your son fight his own battles. Pouring accusations on an opponent prior to a match is a pretty spineless and cynical act. Perhaps this guy really is a cheat - who knows? Your son needs to rise above it and play the match in the spirit of golf and fair play. On the face of it, you seem reluctant for this to happen.

[A V Twiss]

I know Oswestry quite well, I was a member there for a couple of years.  What happens in practice rounds, whilst possibly an indication of behaviour during competition play.  is actually pretty irrelevant.  Unfortunately noticing rules infringements (whether accidental or intentional) goes with the territory.   If your son is paired with this lad in competition he should make sure he is marking his card. If its a matter of declaring a wrong score then your son should simply refuse to put the score down and leave it at that.

Edited by A V Twiss, 22 April 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Ghost_Orchid]

I don't quite get it, how can one cheat during a 'practice round'?  Maybe I'm missing something here.

If he's 'cheating' on practice rounds to get low score, that will be exposed by your lad during actual match play.  No?  As long as your lad writes down the actual scores of the other lad, then I don't see what the problem is.

[DtotheK893]

Golf is a game about integrity and he must learn that from early on... kids probably dont want to be embarrassed and it happens to some kids... dont call him out or anything, i think you should talk to the parents of this "blue eyed kid" and to the kid himself.

[twiglet]

Jakanksi- your avatar is the clash. They stood for equality among classes, yet you continue to be rude with your posts when i am asking for advice about equality. Go figure? This lad should beat my lad anyway, my question is why should my 13yr old should have to worry about someone else not playing by the rules? And should he have someone walking the course with them to keep an eye on proceedings? As I've said on my previous, post I like the young fella and if he wins fair and square that's great but cheating should not be condoned!!  I am not a bitter father but try to teach my son to be honest, what's wrong with that?

[Sean2]

I just hope your son doesn't get so caught up in watching the other boy he gets distracted from his own golf game. If the other boy does in fact cheat, your son will have to call him on it.

Hopefully, this was just a practice round thing.

[MadGolfer76]

twiglet, on 22 April 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Jakanksi- your avatar is the clash. They stood for equality among classes, yet you continue to be rude with your posts when i am asking for advice about equality. Go figure? This lad should beat my lad anyway, my question is why should my 13yr old should have to worry about someone else not playing by the rules? And should he have someone walking the course with them to keep an eye on proceedings? As I've said on my previous, post I like the young fella and if he wins fair and square that's great but cheating should not be condoned!!  I am not a bitter father but try to teach my son to be honest, what's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that at all. I think you set a good example for your child by being concerned with honesty. I think a conversation with him about your concerns regarding the other boy will go a long way. Attempting to manage the situation takes away an opportunity for your son to model a proper behavior. I say, have faith.

Just my two pence...

[twiglet]

Thank you for your reply.  This is not a practise round thing. My son is a very honest young lad.  He is also a very shy lad. He does not mind telling me what has gone on, on the course, but to stand up and call somebody out for cheating is not his style!! Iwas just looking for advice off other parents. I am not bitter nor am i looking for somebody to blame because my son is not the next big thing. I am just asking for advice, so please do not treat it as anything else. I sit in the club house with the deputy head green keeper and have a few bers whilst my son goes out and plays golf!!!

[Sean2]

twiglet, on 22 April 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Thank you for your reply.  This is not a practise round thing. My son is a very honest young lad.  He is also a very shy lad. He does not mind telling me what has gone on, on the course, but to stand up and call somebody out for cheating is not his style!! Iwas just looking for advice off other parents. I am not bitter nor am i looking for somebody to blame because my son is not the next big thing. I am just asking for advice, so please do not treat it as anything else. I sit in the club house with the deputy head green keeper and have a few bers whilst my son goes out and plays golf!!!

I think your heart is in the right place and the spirit in which you intended may have been misinterpreted. At your son's age it's understandable he might not want to be confrontational. Golf is difficult enough without having to worry about things like this.

Good luck!

[dplevin]

Here is some advice from a junior golfer.  I play competitive golf, but in a low stakes manor, much like your son.  There is another kid on my team that cheats consistently and I have to keep an eye out for it.  It's best to confront them when the cheat (i.e. kicking a ball, making a better lie, etc.).  Although I do know the other kid very well (which makes it easier), I still confront him and say in a rather loud voice " you can't do that, especially not in a match".  Also when someone tries to shave strokes, I recount with them their shots on the previous hole.  It isn't nearly as awkward or embarrassing as it sounds.

[Nej1140]

When your son marks down the score for the other kid always  say "I had you down for a 6" not "what did you get?"

[RookieBlue7]

It's a practice round that this is currently occurring in if I'm reading it correctly.  While it sucks, it's also a practice round and honestly, your son shouldn't be worrying about what he's doing in practice.  He shouldn't be keeping the other player's score or anything during a practice round, focusing on preparing himself for his event, IMO.  I would instruct my son ways in which to question the other child during a competitive round without being confrontational, such as asking "I had you down for a 6, correct?"  Or, if a rule is breached, he should make a mental note of it and report it to the official scorer if the kid turns in an incorrect scorecard.  Thing is, golf is a game in which we call penalties on ourselves, and it's going to be his word versus the other child's and could cause your son to be seen as the "tattle tale" or "rat" or, in the event he loses, a "sore loser".  If worse comes to worse, request that an official of some sort tag along with them.

[twiglet]

Thanks for the posts. Being seen as the rat is what we are concerned about. Friday was a comp and my lad does not mind putting him right on his scores, he does it all the time but he will cross out the right score and change it back to what he wants. Friday was ok because he felt ill after the seventh and did not put his card in.  If i ask for an official to go out with them then they will ask why. I am no rat and have brought my son up the same hence why i am asking for advice on here and not having a meeting with the junior official. The problem i can see is when the cards are disputed "the next big thing" tag is going to carry some weight against a up and comer. I just do not want my lad to do "the right thing" and come away looking like the villain.

[A V Twiss]

twiglet, on 23 April 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Thanks for the posts. Being seen as the rat is what we are concerned about. Friday was a comp and my lad does not mind putting him right on his scores, he does it all the time but he will cross out the right score and change it back to what he wants. Friday was ok because he felt ill after the seventh and did not put his card in.  If i ask for an official to go out with them then they will ask why. I am no rat and have brought my son up the same hence why i am asking for advice on here and not having a meeting with the junior official. The problem i can see is when the cards are disputed "the next big thing" tag is going to carry some weight against a up and comer. I just do not want my lad to do "the right thing" and come away looking like the villain.

If he edits his card in this way the marker has no alternative but to refuse to sign the card.  Also if cards are handed in the marker is duty bound to report this.  Its not about being a "rat" its about preserving the integrity of the game.  I would be more than happy to take a bit of grief if it meant I was standing up for what is right.  Mind you I am 54 so its easier for me.  But doing the right thing can be hard.

[twiglet]

If he edits his card in this way the marker has no alternative but to refuse to sign the card. Also if cards are handed in the marker is duty bound to report this. Its not about being a "rat" its about preserving the integrity of the game. I would be more than happy to take a bit of grief if it meant I was standing up for what is right. Mind you I am 54 so its easier for me. But doing the right thing can be hard
Very well put

[tigerwannabe]

your son shouldn't be concerned with the other kids score in a practice round what so ever!  If the kid wants to do take extra shots and mulligans in a practice round than that is completely okay and only hurting him.Also you can't always listen to what everyone says.

[ShankOnYourFace]

practice is practice... it doesn't count.

growing up I was involved in a lot of sports and I learned early to fight my own battles.  The last thing any coach/other parents/officials want to hear is from parents regarding an issue in the game.  Teach your son how to respectfully address the issue to the correct individual WHEN AND ONLY WHEN it happens.  If they give your son a hard time it will be YOUR TURN to back him up.  

just my .02

[SirHackAlot]

my son plays high school golf, and the number 1 player on the team was known cheater/"ball dropper"...

after asking around the coaches/other players/pros in the proshop....everyone knew he was cheating...i told my son to score his opponent, tally them up at the end, and if there are differences in score, refuse to sign the card...otherwise risk his own disqualification

[mat562]

In my experience, if the lad is a regular fiddler of scores and a bit of a manipulator of his handicap then your son won't be the first one to have noticed what's going on. The junior organiser may well think the sun shines out of bis backside because of his handicap or perceived skill, but when more than one person starts to point out discrepancies in scoring, incidents out on the course and refusing to sign cards on the occasion of that player altering or disputing any scores he's marked, his reputation will soon start to take a few knocks and the shine will be knocked off.

Your son doesn't need to go out of his way or be a snitch. All he needs to do is what is expected of him as a marker: to keep track of the other player's strokes, make sure that that player is playing by the rules and mark down eighteen scores which accurately reflect the number of strokes taken on each hole by the player concerned. Nothing more and nothing less. He should, however, go into the round with an open mind and not assume that the player will be cheating based on past behaviour. If anything does happen, then it'll be entirely on the other player's head, and your son can say, unequivocally, that he has acted properly and not influenced things in any way.

If there is an 'incident', then anything untoward needs to be challenged at the time. Yes, it can be difficult as a youngster, and particularly so in the case of individuals who are not overly confident or confrontational in nature, to approach someone and suggest that what they're doing appears to be something not strictly kosher, but your son should be bolstered by the knowledge that he is acting properly, in accordance with the rules, and in line with the onus that's upon him to protect the field as a marker of a competitor's card. If balls are being dropped down trouser legs or given a hoof with a foot wedge, then he should challenge at the time, preferably after putting himself in a good vantage point to witness any wrongdoing first-hand. He shouldn't be seen to be 'crowding' the other player, but often putting yourself near the action when a ball's in a potentially fiddleable spot can be enough to put off a cheat before they do anything untoward and tacitly let them know that you know. If player disputes a score upon completion of a hole, challenge his assertion there and then and be ready to recount each of his strokes, individually, as evidence that you're not an idiot who can be manipulated and know full well what's going on. There's no need to be overly aggressive about the way you challenge. A simple 'I'm not sure that's right. There was the tee shot with a 3 wood into the right rough, a whack out of the edge of that bush, a mid-iron approach to the green side and a chip and two putts for six,' is enough. Put that way, there's no way they're conning their way to the five they just tried to palm you off with. If a player insists on altering scores on the card before it's returned, then your son should simply refuse to sign it and should raise the matter with the recorder in a reasonable manner and be able to challenge any scores which are disputed. The returned scores are the ones your son, as marker, records, and upon which a competition committee subsequently agree; not what the player decides he's scored in his own imagination. If the round is played as a threeball, the third player should be made aware of any concerns your son has over the player's conduct at the time of any discrepancy so as to be in a position to act as a witness and corroborate any account your son gives.

It's never a nice situation to be in, playing in a scored round with someone whom you suspect of being economical with the truth, but in your shoes I would tell your son to first and foremost go out and enjoy the golf and to concentrate on his own game and score; but to keep a weather eye out for the individual concerned and to keep on top of what he's doing as he goes about his own business on the course. He doesn't need to act like MI5. He just needs to keep his eyes and ears open in between playing his own game and to have the gumption to stand up and confidently challenge anything he sees which is untoward. These are not the actions of a snitch, but simply the actions of a responsible marker doing what they are required to do when they are handed the responsibility of  marking a card in a scored competition, and you should stress to your son that he is not acting unreasonably, doing anything out of the ordinary or in any way 'policing' the player concerned in an onerous or unreasonable fashion. If your son is put in the unfortunate position of seeing someone deciding to play other than by the rules, then it's the player who has put himself in that position, entirely as a result of his own actions. As far as his actions go, your son should know that other competitors are relying upon him to do his job as a marker, and he's as much representing them as he is himself when he signs another competitor's card and attests that the scores upon it are a true and accurate record.

Above all else, your son shouldn't be worrying about the politics of the junior section or feather ruffling, but on playing his best golf, enjoying himself, putting the best score he can manage upon the card and simply making sure that his opponent is doing the same in a fair and reasonable manner.

Edited by mat562, 25 April 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[twiglet]

Thank you for the very thorough reply. It was a comp they were playing on Friday and my son had been correcting him after each hole with no problems. I have since explained some of your points and he feels much happier that he would be doing the right thing for both of them if he keeps doing the same thing.
Just as an example, in a practice round, me and another chap watched them tee off on the 18th ( you can see players coming down the 18th from the club house ). The lad in question hit two tee shots, then walked over to my lad and borrowed his driver and hit another tee shot. He then went into the tree's, came out again and hit the his ball from his third tee shot which had landed on the fairway. That shot then went into the trees on the opposite side. Hit a branch on the way out, two more shots onto the green and one putted. Put down a five. My son came walking up to me with his head shaking and laughing. I had a chuckle too and told  the other lad i liked his style. I know they were only practicing but i just loved how optimistic he was banging down a five and walking over to his dad who had just turned up and handing him the card with a big smile. How could you fall out with a wee fella with that much style?

Thanks for all your replies.

[parpar41]

jaskanski, on 22 April 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So the match against your son's opponent hasn't been played yet? Sounds like poor form on your part for accusing some lad of cheating without much proof prior to playing against a match against your son, who by your own admission probably isn't quite such a good player. Sour grapes indeed. Sounds like you need to man up and leave the match to take it's natural course without dear old dad interfering on his largely innocent sons behalf. If your son plays his OWN game and plays well then he should have no problem. Perhaps you should wear a pair of school shorts and play his match for him? Sad.

Wow - that is one spectacularly rude and inappropriate response, especially to someone's first ever post on GolfWrx.  Great way to welcome someone to this ( otherwise) great discussion board site.

[jaskanski]

Has everyone got a time machine and I haven't?
You cannot assume an opponent is going to cheat in a match even though they may have a track record for being dodgy. Golf is a game of honour, integrity and courtesy - therefore it is any players responsibility to give an opponent the same courtesy and privilege as anyone else - innocent until proven guilty etc. If the aforementioned player subsequently goes on to cheat, then so be it and appropriate action can be taken, nicely outlined by mat562.
But accusing the player of such action before the match? Bad form - and perhaps the wrong mindset to take into any match too. Not only that, but imagine if the other lads father is reading this - surely what must he think of everyone accusing his son of cheating before the match had even commenced?
I merely responded to the inappropriate posting of such speculation before a match had been played out - perhaps the so-called "cheat" might play a brilliant round with no infractions whatsoever - we simply don't know but we must afford him the same courtesy as anyone else.
The original tone of the post sounded to me (ymmv) like the father was scared his son would lose a match before it had even been played, simply because he thought (how the heck do we know?) his opponent was a cheat. Accusing him of such a thing is not courteous, honourable or using any integrity.
Some people have certainly been jumping on my back recently for being "rude", but if you take a few "home truths" of being such, then perhaps you already know you're wrong in any case. Everyone has an opinion, especially polarized when children or their family is involved, but perhaps you need to look at the bigger picture. I simply voice my opinion. That is, accusation of cheating prior to the event is impossible. After the event, twiglet could moan all he wants.
If you find that rude, that's your luxury. Truth never hurt anybody except those trying to hide from it.

Edited by jaskanski, 26 April 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[tx_basser]

I went thru this with my daughter during some of her early junior events, and she needed to learn to call out those that can't seem to consistently count their strokes.  She has even been called out a time or two when she has lost track.  One they start doing it... it is just a matter of procedure and no stigma attached.  It's the ones that you recognized that do it over and over.. you can tell they are the score fudgers.

[deadsolid...shank]

jaskanski, on 26 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Has everyone got a time machine and I haven't?
You cannot assume an opponent is going to cheat in a match even though they may have a track record for being dodgy. Golf is a game of honour, integrity and courtesy - therefore it is any players responsibility to give an opponent the same courtesy and privilege as anyone else - innocent until proven guilty etc. If the aforementioned player subsequently goes on to cheat, then so be it and appropriate action can be taken, nicely outlined by mat562.
But accusing the player of such action before the match? Bad form - and perhaps the wrong mindset to take into any match too. Not only that, but imagine if the other lads father is reading this - surely what must he think of everyone accusing his son of cheating before the match had even commenced?
I merely responded to the inappropriate posting of such speculation before a match had been played out - perhaps the so-called "cheat" might play a brilliant round with no infractions whatsoever - we simply don't know but we must afford him the same courtesy as anyone else.
The original tone of the post sounded to me (ymmv) like the father was scared his son would lose a match before it had even been played, simply because he thought (how the heck do we know?) his opponent was a cheat. Accusing him of such a thing is not courteous, honourable or using any integrity.
Some people have certainly been jumping on my back recently for being "rude", but if you take a few "home truths" of being such, then perhaps you already know you're wrong in any case. Everyone has an opinion, especially polarized when children or their family is involved, but perhaps you need to look at the bigger picture. I simply voice my opinion. That is, accusation of cheating prior to the event is impossible. After the event, twiglet could moan all he wants.
If you find that rude, that's your luxury. Truth never hurt anybody except those trying to hide from it.

Sorry Jaskanski but I have to disagree with you here. When someone does have the reputation as a cheat (and many times those reputations are well deserved), they do merit an extra degree of watchfullness from their playing partners. There is a lot of talk on here about protecting the field; well, if you are playing with someone who has that reputation, you should be watching a little closer. Not particularly fair to the playing partner, but still a reality.

But, I don't think that is the real issue the OP was bringing up. I never read into his post that he was moaning or was scared his son would lose the match. He actually said the other boy is a better player than his son and that he actually thinks pretty well of the boy. My impression was he was looking for ways to help his son deal with what could be a potential situation based on the other boy's previous actions. I thought it was asked quite reasonably, and I also feel that you did in fact jump on him. But you are 100% correct, we all have different opinions and whether they are right or wrong, we are entitled to them.

[nitram]

..... your kid Jas???  

[bulls9999]

I have to agree with deadsolid.  If the so-called 'cheater' has done so repeatedly, then that reputation preceeds them...no fault of anyone except the cheater for having cultivated that sentiment in others and everyone else, especially the other youngsters, being human, will be on the lookout for that to rear it's ugly head again.  Same happened to my son's team mate in h.s. Even the coach would catch him at times during their practices.  I remember one junior tournament he was in a different group/different fairway from my son's and his ball ended up behind us near the trees and waiting for my son to tee off, I turn around to watch this lad and he gives the ball a texas wedge (kicked it out from behind a tree to have a shot while his playing partners were 60 yrds away on the other side of the fairway....he turns around and sees that I saw him and then he moves it back and says "I put it back".... to which I said....doesn't matter, it's still a penalty since you touched it ! Unless you have first hand knowledge witnessing these types, you just can't believe how pervasive it is in their nature to do that.  I think that youngster was doing it because of extreme pressure from his dad, who would berate him about his bad play when he didn't play well or qualify.  The dad wanted him to play baseball but the youngster wanted to play golf.

deadsolid...shank, on 27 April 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

jaskanski, on 26 April 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Has everyone got a time machine and I haven't?
You cannot assume an opponent is going to cheat in a match even though they may have a track record for being dodgy. Golf is a game of honour, integrity and courtesy - therefore it is any players responsibility to give an opponent the same courtesy and privilege as anyone else - innocent until proven guilty etc. If the aforementioned player subsequently goes on to cheat, then so be it and appropriate action can be taken, nicely outlined by mat562.
But accusing the player of such action before the match? Bad form - and perhaps the wrong mindset to take into any match too. Not only that, but imagine if the other lads father is reading this - surely what must he think of everyone accusing his son of cheating before the match had even commenced?
I merely responded to the inappropriate posting of such speculation before a match had been played out - perhaps the so-called "cheat" might play a brilliant round with no infractions whatsoever - we simply don't know but we must afford him the same courtesy as anyone else.
The original tone of the post sounded to me (ymmv) like the father was scared his son would lose a match before it had even been played, simply because he thought (how the heck do we know?) his opponent was a cheat. Accusing him of such a thing is not courteous, honourable or using any integrity.
Some people have certainly been jumping on my back recently for being "rude", but if you take a few "home truths" of being such, then perhaps you already know you're wrong in any case. Everyone has an opinion, especially polarized when children or their family is involved, but perhaps you need to look at the bigger picture. I simply voice my opinion. That is, accusation of cheating prior to the event is impossible. After the event, twiglet could moan all he wants.
If you find that rude, that's your luxury. Truth never hurt anybody except those trying to hide from it.

Sorry Jaskanski but I have to disagree with you here. When someone does have the reputation as a cheat (and many times those reputations are well deserved), they do merit an extra degree of watchfullness from their playing partners. There is a lot of talk on here about protecting the field; well, if you are playing with someone who has that reputation, you should be watching a little closer. Not particularly fair to the playing partner, but still a reality.

But, I don't think that is the real issue the OP was bringing up. I never read into his post that he was moaning or was scared his son would lose the match. He actually said the other boy is a better player than his son and that he actually thinks pretty well of the boy. My impression was he was looking for ways to help his son deal with what could be a potential situation based on the other boy's previous actions. I thought it was asked quite reasonably, and I also feel that you did in fact jump on him. But you are 100% correct, we all have different opinions and whether they are right or wrong, we are entitled to them.

Edited by bulls9999, 28 April 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[jaskanski]

In matchplay, golf in it's purest form, reputation precedes nothing. Sure, anybody with that sort of reputation will attract a certain level of scrutiny during the match perhaps, but that doesn't mean they have to be billed as "cheat" before the match has commenced. Are they likely to be a cheat all their lives? Possibly. Do we know they will? Absolutely not.
Like it has been said, golf is a game of parity and equality amongst opponents - through handicap and it's sense of honour, all players are entitled to be treated as though they equal. This sentiment is especially important BEFORE the match commences.
Anybody laying down accusations about an opponents level of integrity BEFORE a match - even if they had a reasonable amount of prior evidence from whatever source - is wrong.
Everybody deserves to be treated as a worthy opponent on all levels. Prior to a match, the sort of base name-calling and finger pointing is similar to boxers giving each other the needle prior to a match - does golf need that? I think not. Lord knows, there is enough mental gamesmanship between players DURING a match.
Anybody who would want to bring this sort of attention to someone before a match is rather insecure if you ask me - it's almost an admission to defeat before the fact. It would say more about the character of the player if he played against a known cheat and won having said nothing, than if he shot his mouth off and lost. Let golf be the sole judge of who is right -- if the guy cheats, it will be obvious and his opponent is entitled to take action. If he moans to all and sundry before the match and loses fair and square, he makes himself look like a tool.
Do the right thing - shut up and play golf. If there is an infraction during the match, then say something about it. If there isn't, then it's up to the player to do enough to win within the rules of golf. After the event, either party can bore everybody for years with their tales of triumph or injustice. That is matchplay. It's got nothing to do with reputation - if it did, certain pros would have a much better matchplay record. The angry finger pointing dad before the event is enough to make me vomit.