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Does adjusting a RBZ driver loft change face angle?


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#1 roll - gybe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:15 PM

I know Titleist has found away around this issue.

On the RBZ if you decrease loft are you opening the face?  
I really liked the way the RBZ Tour set up, but I tried it at 9*, and standard setting.  I would need to take loft off if go in this direction.  I just want to be comfortable the club will have the same alignment behind the ball.

Thanks guys.


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#2 TheAztec27

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:20 PM

If you "lower" the loft the face is open (for right hander I am assuming) and if you raise the loft the face is closed.

I believe you can get more info on how each setting effects the face angle on the taylormade website

#3 roll - gybe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:30 PM

I did look at the website.  Kind of thin on data by WRX standards.  Here's what they say:
Flight Control Technology (FCT) allows you to tune your launch angle by increasing or decreasing the RBZ Tour driver's loft by 1.5 degree higher or 1.5 degree lower. Eight FCT positions allow you to tune the loft in accurate increments.



#4 TheAztec27

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:33 PM

In order for the face to be a higher loft AT IMPACT the fact will need to be 1.5 degrees closed. The at impact is the part in which they are referring to, therefore at address the face orientation will be either 1.5 degree open or closed depending on what orientation you have it at (lower or higher)

#5 jaskanski

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

If you check the TM website, you can see the graphic of how the adjustment works. It looks like the face opens and closes relative to loft as you would expect. Unlike the R11 which has separate methods of adjustment, the RBZ only has one. Click on the arrows in "tune for extreme distance" and watch the driver in the lower right - you can see the face angle changing. Hope this helps.

http://www.taylormad...llz-tour-driver


#6 roll - gybe

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

Yeah, I saw that.  Hard to ascertain imo from that tiny cartoon.


So do y'all think they took technology OUT of the RBZ tip?

#7 Snowman9000

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:45 PM

When you change the loft of a driver with ANY of the adjustable hosel systems, you are changing the face angle as well.  No matter what TM or Titleist doesn't say.  At least with the R11, you can maybe counter it with the thingy that changes the way the head sits.  With the Titleist system, what you are able to do is change the loft/ face angle independently of the lie angle.  Not change the loft independently of the face angle, which cannot be done with a hosel adjustment.

#8 dlefty

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

View Postroll - gybe, on 22 April 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

I know Titleist has found away around this issue.

On the RBZ if you decrease loft are you opening the face?  
I really liked the way the RBZ Tour set up, but I tried it at 9*, and standard setting.  I would need to take loft off if go in this direction.  I just want to be comfortable the club will have the same alignment behind the ball.

Thanks guys.

That would be an incorrect statement, Titleist face angle changes just like every other adjustable driver when modifying loft.
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#9 RookieBlue7

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:30 PM

View Postroll - gybe, on 22 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yeah, I saw that.  Hard to ascertain imo from that tiny cartoon.


So do y'all think they took technology OUT of the RBZ tip?

No, any time you adjust loft it's done by opening or closing the face at address. When you lower the loft you open the face at address. In order to get the decreased loft, you're closing the face down at impact, delofting the driver. Think of it like a wedge at impact. When hitting a flop shot (adding loft) you open it and keep it open. We're you to close the face at impact, with it open at address, you're rotating it closed and delofting it, opening it and holding it open through impact adds loft. To flight the ball straight with the driver, you have to have, essentially, a closing stroke in order to square the face at impact and achieve the lower loft. Clear as mud?

#10 roll - gybe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 07:51 AM

View PostRookieBlue7, on 22 April 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postroll - gybe, on 22 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yeah, I saw that.  Hard to ascertain imo from that tiny cartoon.


So do y'all think they took technology OUT of the RBZ tip?

No, any time you adjust loft it's done by opening or closing the face at address. When you lower the loft you open the face at address. In order to get the decreased loft, you're closing the face down at impact, delofting the driver. Think of it like a wedge at impact. When hitting a flop shot (adding loft) you open it and keep it open. We're you to close the face at impact, with it open at address, you're rotating it closed and delofting it, opening it and holding it open through impact adds loft. To flight the ball straight with the driver, you have to have, essentially, a closing stroke in order to square the face at impact and achieve the lower loft. Clear as mud?

Yes, let's just take this principle as a given.  Everyone understands this.  

With the Titleist tip, there is are 2 adjustments being made: loft and lie.  Plus the tip is curved, so the wedge/bending analogy isn't exactly on target based on what I know.

Maybe a better question is: "how does the RBZ tip work?"

Edited by roll - gybe, 23 April 2012 - 07:57 AM.


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#11 Gehly

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:40 AM

View PostRookieBlue7, on 22 April 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:


No, any time you adjust loft it's done by opening or closing the face at address. When you lower the loft you open the face at address. In order to get the decreased loft, you're closing the face down at impact, delofting the driver. Think of it like a wedge at impact. When hitting a flop shot (adding loft) you open it and keep it open. We're you to close the face at impact, with it open at address, you're rotating it closed and delofting it, opening it and holding it open through impact adds loft. To flight the ball straight with the driver, you have to have, essentially, a closing stroke in order to square the face at impact and achieve the lower loft. Clear as mud?

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THIS

#12 roll - gybe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:00 AM

Ok, I am looking through old 910 threads and I see that the surefit tip does not maintain the face angle when loft is changed.

(although the WRX offical review seems to state otherwise, but that's probably just poorly written)

So, what changes on the TM tips?  Loft and lie at the same time?

If I want 8 degrees and square, I am basically sol, correct?

#13 SwooshLT

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:06 AM

View Postroll - gybe, on 23 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Ok, I am looking through old 910 threads and I see that the surefit tip does not maintain the face angle when loft is changed.

(although the WRX offical review seems to state otherwise, but that's probably just poorly written)

So, what changes on the TM tips?  Loft and lie at the same time?

If I want 8 degrees and square, I am basically sol, correct?

You need r11 or r11s with ASP technology......you would then open the face for de-lofting but ASP allows you to set face angle for a visual effect back to square....clear as mud :friends:

#14 SHIVAN

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

Nothing has changed on the RBZ tip, from a technology standpoint.  It works just like the FCT did in the R9, R11 and R11s.  The differences are in the degrees to which each cog is effecting the setup.

#15 BigPete

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

All the systems work the same - the shaft goes in at a slight angle to the hosel so as you swivel the shaft, the angle of the face changes - this effects the effective loft. Look closer at the Titleist chart - it says "effective loft" +1 -1 etc. The TM priciple is exactly the same priciple but instead of labeling their adjustments open or closed, they've now changed the wording to higher or lower (presumably as loft adjustment is seen as a more desirable trait that face angle adjustment)

Of course, now Callaway have joined the party 4 years later "every other driver simply has to adjust" or something....

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#16 Snowman9000

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:48 PM

View Postroll - gybe, on 23 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Ok, I am looking through old 910 threads and I see that the surefit tip does not maintain the face angle when loft is changed.

(although the WRX offical review seems to state otherwise, but that's probably just poorly written)

So, what changes on the TM tips?  Loft and lie at the same time?

If I want 8 degrees and square, I am basically sol, correct?

Well, a lot of people have misunderstood the Titleist system, so don't feel bad.

Yes, the TM changes loft and face angle together, plus the lie angle.  I don't know about the R11, but in other adjustable heads I've messed with, neutral was not square.  Neutral was neutral, which was another way of saying a typical 1º closed.  IF yours is actually a bit closed at neutral, and you want square, you could get that by reducing the loft.  Or put it another way, when you reduce the loft, you are opening the face angle.  If it is closed at [cough] neutral, it will be square at some lower loft setting.  So you might luck out.

Here's the thing, do you hover the club at address?  If so, just go ahead and set it at 8º and forget it.  But if you sole the club at address, then you'll have to play with the sole thingy till it sits the way you want to see it.

Clear as mud?
:)

Edit to add: I see you have a Tour head, so maybe it is truly square by design at neutral.  I'll leave my explanation stand for information purposes though.

Edited by Snowman9000, 23 April 2012 - 05:50 PM.


#17 roll - gybe

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:33 PM

That brings up another issue....

Tour vs. Tour TP

They come in different lofts, so despite the notion that only the shafts change, something is up...

#18 Masse1369

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:33 PM

No they don't.  You might be able to get the TP shaft in the non tour head, but the Tour and the Tour TP is the same head.
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#19 imaplus3wannaplay

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:36 PM

View Postroll - gybe, on 23 April 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

View PostRookieBlue7, on 22 April 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postroll - gybe, on 22 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yeah, I saw that.  Hard to ascertain imo from that tiny cartoon.


So do y'all think they took technology OUT of the RBZ tip?

No, any time you adjust loft it's done by opening or closing the face at address. When you lower the loft you open the face at address. In order to get the decreased loft, you're closing the face down at impact, delofting the driver. Think of it like a wedge at impact. When hitting a flop shot (adding loft) you open it and keep it open. We're you to close the face at impact, with it open at address, you're rotating it closed and delofting it, opening it and holding it open through impact adds loft. To flight the ball straight with the driver, you have to have, essentially, a closing stroke in order to square the face at impact and achieve the lower loft. Clear as mud?

Yes, let's just take this principle as a given.  Everyone understands this.  

With the Titleist tip, there is are 2 adjustments being made: loft and lie.  Plus the tip is curved, so the wedge/bending analogy isn't exactly on target based on what I know.

Maybe a better question is: "how does the RBZ tip work?"

All the tips are interchangeable in the TM drivers.  The RBZ tip is the same as the others it's just a different color and has different markings.

Edited by imaplus3wannaplay, 23 April 2012 - 10:36 PM.


#20 roll - gybe

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:12 AM

View PostMasse1369, on 23 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

No they don't.  You might be able to get the TP shaft in the non tour head, but the Tour and the Tour TP is the same head.


It looks like the Tour TP is a 9.5* while the Tour is 9.0*

confused


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#21 RookieBlue7

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:28 AM

I have a Tour TP I got direct from a TMag rep that's a 9 degree.

Proof on the right:
Posted Image

That's when it was brand new, head only.

#22 ping223

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:27 PM

The RBZ and RBZ Tour heads are different. They come in different lofts, and the Tour head is a different shape, with a deeper face.

#23 roll - gybe

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:26 PM

OK, I checked back at TGW and now the TOUR and TOUR TP have the same lofts. The different lofts could have been a typo previously.

...or maybe I was just super confused by the redundancy of the term "tour tour preferred"...

#24 MCCA

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

View Postping223, on 25 April 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

The RBZ and RBZ Tour heads are different. They come in different lofts, and the Tour head is a different shape, with a deeper face.


I think he was refering to the RBZ Tour vs RBZ TP, not the standard RBZ which is a shallow face.

#25 Ri_Redneck

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:30 PM

WOW! What a discussion.  I have been researching these drivers / fairway clubs for the last week and I think I can clear some things up here.  First, the loft adjustment is simply rotating the sleeve which is nothing more than a bent tip.  Now, in the old days, if you wanted to increase the loft of a metal wood, you clamped it so that the face was square to the clamp and bent the shaft forward the desired number of degrees. The TM sleeve does the same thing.  Does this effect the face angle? Yes!  When the bend increases the loft, it also lowers the back of the clubhead (part farthest from the face). This will cause the face angle to close if you sit the clubhead on the ground in the address position because the sole near the back of the clubhead touches the ground before the sole near the face. Inversely, if you decrease the loft, the club will turn open when placed on the ground.

With the R11 / R11s, You can counter this by adjusting the sole plate piece. With the RBZ, you can not. What you will have to do to get a square face at address is physically set it square and hold it there.

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#26 daveltb

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:34 PM

So I've been playing with my 910 driver and R9 fairways settings a little bit and this is what I've came up with.
Adding loft on the R9 (same as RBZ) closes face angle. I think the tour model heads or tour spoon are 1 degree open at neutral. Others (15deg 3W-4W-5W wood) are square at neutral. In looking at RBZ specs I would assume  the same. I don't see that from ball flight on the 910. I see that loft changes loft and open - closed changes face angle and lie angle.

910D3 driver 9.5 deg  - B2
R9 3W 13 deg -  L
R9 4W 17 deg - step between NU and L

I feel I had to add more loft to the 13 deg 3W to close the face the same as the 17 deg 4W because it is the tour spoon which supposedly is for better players instead of high launch players like me.

Your results may vary.

#27 Masse1369

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

I wish I could've just chimed in and answered the question for you first.

"Yes."

/thread

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