105 replies to this topic

[ej002]

To get the low left thing going is going to be difficult for you.  The face and arm set must be open on the downswing.  The right elbow in front of the body.  I am not sure there is a way around these two things.

[pappaf2]

mact3333, on 25 April 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Also, to the guy who brings up  driveway reflectors, what are you talking about specifically???. Need a visual here.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about driveway markers, which are the same thing as those alignment sticks that they sell at golf shops. The only real difference is price, driveway markers a a dollar or two each and alignment sticks are $15 or more.

http://www.homedepot...1&storeId=10051

http://www.golfsmith...nt-training-aid

[tommykrebs]

ej002, on 25 April 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

The right elbow in front of the body.  

Not true for a OPS. Read Hardy.

Tomorrow I will change my address position. Let us see what will happen.




@mact3333: please watch Monte's video (in this thread)

Thank's and good night

[ej002]

Hardy guys don't really swing left.

Your right elbow is straightening.  It has to be leading, the only way to lead is if it is in front.


Well I guess some of them might, but where the elbow is in their patter the arm will straighten.  That doesn't really fit the importance of the swing left concept.

Edited by ej002, 25 April 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[reflection]

The picture in post #63 looks like your hands are too close to your body (hands are inside the vertical line drawn at your shoulders).  Perhaps it's just the camera angle...

[tommykrebs]

ej002, on 25 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Hardy guys don't really swing left.

It has to be leading, the only way to lead is if it is in front.

Please stop writing if you are not familiar with Hardy's OPS. It will confuse some people. Thank's

Edited by tommykrebs, 26 April 2012 - 03:08 AM.

[BENCHMADE]

Tommy, i think your swing looks great. I too am 6'2. We both are of the same build although ive put on a couple of pounds . I had a complete fitting of the bag. Irons are +1/2 , 3* up. The only thing i can see "minor" is how far your hands are compared to where JH wants them. Minor stuff and as long as your hitting it strait and making good contact

[Atrayn]

Tommy,

First, I do have a lot of OPS experience and knowledge as I used to be a two plane guy. I also used to teach the golf swing, however for many years I taught it wrong in my opinion. I do not talk about my previous teaching experience for this reason. I have learned more about the golf swing over the last 5 years than I ever learned being in the PGA.

Did you try the positions in my last post? If you cannot acheive these, you will never ever have a true OPS. The positions and pivot information I speak of are true to almost every swing model with the exception of those that flip. Yes, there are a few touring pros that flip and are very successful. Swinging left is NOT exclusive to the Slicefixer or rotary concept.

Please review the following link from Jim Hardy's website. Pay particular attention to the information at 1:41 (spine angle) which is absent from your current downswing.
5:47 - 6:30 (sequencing of the hips) and 6:55 where Scott McCarron's hips are open when the shaft is parallel on the downswing.

OPS - Jim Hardy link

I cannot get any clearer than this. Using your preferred OPS method.

Best Regards,

Adam

[Dr.John]

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Tommy,

First, I do have a lot of OPS experience and knowledge as I used to be a two plane guy. I also used to teach the golf swing, however for many years I taught it wrong in my opinion. I do not talk about my previous teaching experience for this reason. I have learned more about the golf swing over the last 5 years than I ever learned being in the PGA.

Did you try the positions in my last post? If you cannot acheive these, you will never ever have a true OPS. The positions and pivot information I speak of are true to almost every swing model with the exception of those that flip. Yes, there are a few touring pros that flip and are very successful. Swinging left is NOT exclusive to the Slicefixer or rotary concept.

Please review the following link from Jim Hardy's website. Pay particular attention to the information at 1:41 (spine angle) which is absent from your current downswing.
5:47 - 6:30 (sequencing of the hips) and 6:55 where Scott McCarron's hips are open when the shaft is parallel on the downswing.

OPS - Jim Hardy link

I cannot get any clearer than this. Using your preferred OPS method.

Best Regards,

Adam

Great post Adam!!  The OP seems reluctant or unable to hit certain positions of the OPS, as you have illustrated with the video.  Hardy even said you don't want to mix certain aspects of the OPS with the TPS (two plane swing).  Perhaps the OP would be better suited to adopt the TPS, or really work on his flexibility so that he can hit the vital positions of the OPS.   I don't agree that is inability to get into certain positions is due to his height, there are plenty of tall OPS who swing left.  I think it's his lack of flexibility, not height or clubs that are too short, that prevents him from achieving certain OPS positions.  Remember, Hardy has often said the OPS requires more athleticism and flexibility.

Edited by Dr.John, 26 April 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[tofur99]

tommykrebs, on 22 April 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Ranger Rick, on 22 April 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

... although from what I see you simply aren't clearing your hips enough to get left.

That's all I can do. Seriously in my DS my main focus is to stay connected and turn everything together. The shoulder catch up with my hips and that's OK. For me it feels powerful and in sync. To force my hips to turn harder from the top would be end in a disaster. I know that Hardy recommends open shoulders at impact but that is NOT possible for me. With more open hips and open shoulders I would get my hands more in front of the ball. I know. It has nothing to do with my right elbow. I have plenty space between my hip and my right elbow.

I don't know why. Maybe because this is my swing. I have to be realistic. I'm not 20 anymore and I have no SliceFixer in my neighborhood. My goal is not to look like a tour pro, search for the perfect swing or play on the tour.

Maybe my practice to swing hard left will open my shoulders. We will see....

First off, great improvement in 2+ years!

But, unless you're injured in some way there is no reason you can't have open hips and shoulders at impact.  You look to be in good health, good shape.  In-flexible?  eat more veggies and find out how to stretch and loosen yourself up.  Stop limiting yourself, what's the point of being realistic?  Even if you don't achieve open hips and shoulders at impact at least you'll get closer than if you accepted mediocrity right off the bat.  Give yourself a chance!


And I'm 6'3 and play standard length and flat clubs and still get down to the ball with right elbow bent and with leverage.  So that excuse isn't valid.  You have to side bend to the right(which is why pre-setting spine tilt works to make a swing more repeatable: dial it into your set up so you don't have to do it with a club moving at 100 mph.) and lower yourself in the downswing to get your arms and club into a good position.  That side-by -side picture of you and hunter is very telling.  See how his lower and upper body are counter-balancing one another, and as a result he has his hands lower yet still hanging down naturally from the shoulders, is closer to the ball, and his weight most likely evenly distributed between the balls and heels of his feet?  I think that will help you more than any actual swing changes, the setup is crucial.

Edited by tofur99, 26 April 2012 - 09:48 AM.

[tommykrebs]

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Tommy,

First, I do have a lot of OPS experience and knowledge as I used to be a two plane guy. I also used to teach the golf swing, however for many years I taught it wrong in my opinion. I do not talk about my previous teaching experience for this reason. I have learned more about the golf swing over the last 5 years than I ever learned being in the PGA.

Did you try the positions in my last post? If you cannot acheive these, you will never ever have a true OPS. The positions and pivot information I speak of are true to almost every swing model with the exception of those that flip. Yes, there are a few touring pros that flip and are very successful. Swinging left is NOT exclusive to the Slicefixer or rotary concept.

Hi Adam, I'm back from the range... first I never questioned your knowledge. And yes, I tried the positions. Without a club it's not a big deal but I'm not capable to hit balls this way. Even not with a pump drill. So, maybe I'm not flexible enough, or something else is not correct. But it's not big problem for me. I'm very happy how I strike the ball even it is not a true OPS. A little bit compensation is OK for me.




pump drill swing:




Thank you all and I wish you a nice season.

Edited by tommykrebs, 26 April 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[tommykrebs]

Compared to Hunter's wedge, my swing is not that bad. But with the driver I'm lightyears away....

[gettingworse]

Like others I would firstly congratulate you for some of the hard work that you have obviously put in. Seems like you have plenty of great advice here already but will add my 2p worth.
Whatever type of swing you are striving for, you need to get that left hip cleared in order to be able to get through the ball without flipping or slapping it. I know next to nowt about the one plane swing (and not a fat lot about the 2 plane) but know the result of lack of flexibility in the hips as I suffer from this,especially if I play 2 days consecutively. It looks to me that you already setup with your left foot flared outwards, if it helps you to clear the hips,flare it out a little more. When I start hitting blocks it is usually because my left hip isn't clearing, my turn stalls and I either flip and hook it or hang onto it and hit the nasty block. Flaring the left trotter out a little more for me helps plenty.

Also think that your hand position looks a little close to the body at setup which won't help in this regard.

Physical restrictions at our age (same age as you and same height funnily enough but I am built a little heavier) can be a problem. The thing is I think most people that I see hit the ball at the range suffer from a lack of flexibilty in the hips,irrespective of their age. My son calls me the Steve Austin because of the amount of plates,screws and everything else that holds me together but I clear my hips. It isn't an option IMO.

Anyway,as I said, I'm no expert and certainly not a swing guru. Just passing on what works for me. Keep up the good work, the rewards are only just around the corner!

[Atrayn]

Dr.John, on 26 April 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Tommy,

First, I do have a lot of OPS experience and knowledge as I used to be a two plane guy. I also used to teach the golf swing, however for many years I taught it wrong in my opinion. I do not talk about my previous teaching experience for this reason. I have learned more about the golf swing over the last 5 years than I ever learned being in the PGA.

Did you try the positions in my last post? If you cannot acheive these, you will never ever have a true OPS. The positions and pivot information I speak of are true to almost every swing model with the exception of those that flip. Yes, there are a few touring pros that flip and are very successful. Swinging left is NOT exclusive to the Slicefixer or rotary concept.

Please review the following link from Jim Hardy's website. Pay particular attention to the information at 1:41 (spine angle) which is absent from your current downswing.
5:47 - 6:30 (sequencing of the hips) and 6:55 where Scott McCarron's hips are open when the shaft is parallel on the downswing.

OPS - Jim Hardy link

I cannot get any clearer than this. Using your preferred OPS method.

Best Regards,

Adam

Great post Adam!!  The OP seems reluctant or unable to hit certain positions of the OPS, as you have illustrated with the video.  Hardy even said you don't want to mix certain aspects of the OPS with the TPS (two plane swing).  Perhaps the OP would be better suited to adopt the TPS, or really work on his flexibility so that he can hit the vital positions of the OPS.   I don't agree that is inability to get into certain positions is due to his height, there are plenty of tall OPS who swing left.  I think it's his lack of flexibility, not height or clubs that are too short, that prevents him from achieving certain OPS positions.  Remember, Hardy has often said the OPS requires more athleticism and flexibility.

Dr. John,

Thank you for your kind words, I get a bit frustrated when someone keeps saying,  "I can't". That is why I asked Tommy to emulate the position in my last post. If he can't do this, then there is definitely a physical issue, either a lack of flexibility or spinal/musculature. He never responded to that post, so I am really curious. The flexibility issue he could fix, but a serious physical limitation he could not and then he would have to deal with it, or find a great teacher that understands the limitations and can work with them.

The work he has done from the old video is fantastic and I applaud that. Many golfers struggle to make this type of improvement is such a short time.

The loss of spine angle/shoulder plane is probably one of the hardest habits to break if you have been doing it wrong for a long time. I can surely attest to that. It's the one swing flaw that creeps back into my swing if I do not think about it on every shot, my missues are usually related to it. My pre-shot routing basically consists of thinking about slowing down the transition and staying seated in my swing.

Most times I lose the spine angle because I rush the transition and get out of sync. When this happens, my body auto-compensates by straightening up. When I straighten up, my arms have to automatically straighten, thus losing lag pressure. When I lose the lag pressure, I lose power and I flip.

This is where natural athletic ability and great timing come in for many good golfers. If I can square the face with my hands, then the result may not be so bad, however, this swing fault is why many people find themselves playing army golf and cannot completely eliminate the left side of the hole.

Forget Slicefixer for a moment. Had I learned about ball flight laws and proper sequencing long ago, I could have been a far better , more consistent golfer and saved myself years of frustration.

Back in the early to mid 90's when I was in the PGA, I worked at a golf course. I was down to scratch for a couple years. However, my job allowed me to hit balls and play every day. My timing was really good and I always have had a good short game. That's why I was scratch. When I got back into golf about 5 years ago, I could not understand why my handicap soared to a 10. Practicing a lot got it down a bit further, but under pressure....fuggetaboutit!

Being as anal as I am and as prideful as I am,  I figured I could do the research and figure it out on my own. In hindsight, I should have gone to an instructor/coach who could have detected my spine angle issue.

At this point, that is what I would tell Tommy. A decent coach will test his physical limitations and also tell him the same thing a few of us on here already have.
Continuing to tell those that are trying to help him, "No!", will not...

Good luck Tommy!

[tommykrebs]

@ gettingworse
Thank you, I did a daily workout for the last 6 month with a lot of stretching and gained muscles around my spine. Apparently not enough...

Edited by tommykrebs, 26 April 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[tommykrebs]

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

He never responded to that post, so I am really curious.

????? ^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by tommykrebs, 26 April 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Atrayn]

tommykrebs, on 26 April 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Compared to Hunter's wedge, my swing is not that bad. But with the driver I'm lightyears away....

    

Tommy,

I am not trying to insult you in any way, because you are getting much closer. However, your wedge swing is not like Hunters. Especially on the downswing. The back swing looks pretty darn good.

I will point out a couple things: ]

1) :06 in your swing to :10 in Hunters - Look at the difference in your left arm position. Hunters is in front of his body. Yours is still stuck inside.
2) :08 - :11 - Look at your left leg. The weight is not in your left heel and your knee is bent. Hunters heel has squashed the bug and his left leg has straightened. This is why you cannot get the hips open. Just like the position I asked you to emulate.
3) :09 - :13 - Look at the face of Hunter's club. it is still square to the path where yours has closed down. This is the late flip.

Lastly look how vertical your club is on your finish. Then compare to Hunters.

The bottom line though....is if you are happy with your swing, that is all that matters. Just trying to help you understand a couple more things that will get you across the finish line....

[Atrayn]

tommykrebs, on 26 April 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

He never responded to that post, so I am really curious.

????? ^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry Tommy, your response wasn't posted before i made that....I hate it when work gets in the way...  

[Atrayn]

tommykrebs, on 26 April 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Tommy,

First, I do have a lot of OPS experience and knowledge as I used to be a two plane guy. I also used to teach the golf swing, however for many years I taught it wrong in my opinion. I do not talk about my previous teaching experience for this reason. I have learned more about the golf swing over the last 5 years than I ever learned being in the PGA.

Did you try the positions in my last post? If you cannot acheive these, you will never ever have a true OPS. The positions and pivot information I speak of are true to almost every swing model with the exception of those that flip. Yes, there are a few touring pros that flip and are very successful. Swinging left is NOT exclusive to the Slicefixer or rotary concept.

Hi Adam, I'm back from the range... first I never questioned your knowledge. And yes, I tried the positions. Without a club it's not a big deal but I'm not capable to hit balls this way. Even not with a pump drill. So, maybe I'm not flexible enough, or something else is not correct. But it's not big problem for me. I'm very happy how I strike the ball even it is not a true OPS. A little bit compensation is OK for me.




pump drill swing:




Thank you all and I wish you a nice season.

Tommy,

Your pump drill video looks good compared to your wedge swing below it. Compare your two swings. Look at where the shaft has (shallowed) in line with your right forearm. Now look at your wedge swing.

If your sequenced properly, and your hips clear when they are supposed to, it's much easier to keep that right elbow in front of the hip socket and shallow the club.

[tommykrebs]

Adam, thank you again... . it's OK for me not to swing like Hunter. Everything is fine and I'm grateful for your help. To blame myself for a lack of flexibility or my age to get not in the desired position would be stupid. I can live with that.

[Atrayn]

tommykrebs, on 26 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Adam, thank you again... . it's OK for me not to swing like Hunter. Everything is fine and I'm grateful for your help. To blame myself for a lack of flexibility or my age to get not in the desired position would be stupid. I can live with that.

Tommy,

My last post on this topic....
Your image of your impact position with your hips open, weight transfered to a straight left leg, with pressure on your heel, maintaining your spine angle shows me it's not your lack of flexibility, It's also definitely NOT your age or athletic ability. I think I made the proper suggestions. Other experts on this site can chime in if they believe I am wrong.

Lastly, I will tell you this. You CAN acheive Hunter's swing and a proper OPS. YOU just need to believe it! Good Luck! I wish you the best...

[ej002]

I understand it perfectly well, but the punchy elbow will not get you in the same position as Hunter, which is what it sounds like you are looking for.

best

Edited by ej002, 27 April 2012 - 11:04 AM.

[tommykrebs]

Atrayn, on 26 April 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Your image of your impact position with your hips open, weight transfered to a straight left leg, with pressure on your heel, maintaining your spine angle shows me it's not your lack of flexibility, It's also definitely NOT your age or athletic ability. I think I made the proper suggestions. Other experts on this site can chime in if they believe I am wrong.

Lastly, I will tell you this. You CAN acheive Hunter's swing and a proper OPS. YOU just need to believe it! Good Luck! I wish you the best...

First let me say....

I was wrong about my upright posture and the length of my clubs. That's not the issue. Sometimes, no not sometimes...it's always hard to figure things out without the help of a teaching-pro. My mistake was to believe in a wrong turn of my hips. There is a drill in Hardy's book and I thought I have to turn like this...




Instead of this I have to bump my hips to the left, turn my hips, my left leg has a chance to straighten, my right leg a little bit too and the main weight is on my left heel. That's the position I strived several month for.
This is the result of one hour on the range So it's by far not perfect but I think it's the right direction. BTW I got rid of my humping the goat!

26.04.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aNJjIngl7Y

Today, 28.04. watch how quick my hands disappear to the left...



Adam, you are right about hitting many fat shot's. Especially with longer irons. And almost every ball goes to the right. My clubface is slightly open now.

[tommykrebs]

21.04.


Today:

[tommykrebs]

The impact position of my 3 wood.





25.4., wedge


today, 28.04., wedge


cheers, Tommy

[tommykrebs]

Address and impact position. This is not only a slide to the left, there is also a turn of the hips. That's how I understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[tommykrebs]

And finally my 5 iron. Pretty fat and off-center but a far better turn of my core...




cheers, Tommy

[tommykrebs]

Today's (29.04) videos. Yesterday my swing plane was too steep. So I did some adjustments in my takeaway and my shoulder turn. My focus today was on a better hip bump.





Comment's are welcome...

[Atrayn]

Tommy,

First, I want to applaud your hard work and dedication. I certainly do understand your issues with instructors as I have been there myself.
I am glad to see that you are able to see what you are doing and where you need to focus.

You are still flipping slightly at the bottom of your swing. Look at your FO video and stop it at the :08 mark. Look at your left wrist just after impact. You will see it is cupped.

Look at this video of Hunter Mahan and look just after at impact. You will see his arm, club shaft and flat wrist are all in alignment. Also observe that his hands are in front of his thigh and yours at the same time are still in the middle of your stance. This is the left part of the "low and left " equation.
Mahan FO

One thing I do see first is that your spine from a front on view is pretty vertical with no secondary axis tilt. You want to tilt slightly away from the target.

You are also getting really steep coming into impact and there isn't a lot of room for your arms, thus you lose leverage and the flip is the result.

[Atrayn]

One last video that really illustrates cause and effect is the following one provided by Bradley Hughes (yes I drink different flavors of Kool Aid)
I really like his videos and this one helped me understand.

In it, he alludes to several topics and videos that are posted constantly by russc and Monte and the Slicefixer gurus, but like I said before pertains to many swing methods.

Bradley Hughes release