82 replies to this topic

[awil]

I have a 86 and hit the ball 250 so I don't see what's wrong with 290 /100

[Myherobobhope]

My current conclusion is that I need to make a table that lists distance compared to swing speed... I'm sure I can find it somewhere, or figure out how to make it.

Basically, if you swing 100mph and have optimal launch and spin, at altitude your drive will go X yards.

Then people at least wouldn't be say "The average PGA drive goes 289.53243 yards" when arguing about distance.

I think it is good to help people with their numbers, I think it is bad to call out people for how far they hit the ball... especially in a non-constructive manner.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I work with numbers and measurements five days a week so I fell pretty sure about two things:

1) Most people who say unbelievable things about how far they hit it or how much clubhead speed they generate are not "lying". They believe certain things to be true and are only remembering or believing certain numbers that support their initial idea. The ignore everything else.

2) Golf is played under extremely variable conditions, leading to all sorts of funny numbers once in a while. If you ignore the vast majority of your tee shots you can always find a couple that happen to support such-and-such ridiculous overestimate of your actual distances.

It's mostly selective recall, with a little bit of ego-driven "rounding up" or slight exaggerations. And there are plenty of "launch monitor" setups out there specifically intended to provide very ego-boosting numbers, supplied by people hoping to make a few bucks off that ego.

[nitram]

Sean2, on 15 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

I always thought golf was about scoring, not about how far the ball went.

It amazes me that most everyone seems to be obsessed with distance, but no one seems to give a s**t about score.

A M E N

[GooseHook]

Thrillhouse, on 15 April 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Go look at the swing videos people post, a lot of the guys who say they have 120mph swing speeds are swinging out of their shoes and actually do have 120mph swing speeds. The hit some serious foul balls when they miss it and its harming their ability to score but they aren't lying in a lot of cases.

The posts I find interesting are the guys who say they have the same swing speed that I do yet carry it 40 yards further than me. I know my driver is shorter than normal and I launch it a little lower than normal so my carry isn't optimal but sorry, if your swing speed is 110 and my swing speed is 110 and I carry it 265 at sea level with a smash factor close to 1.50 you don't carry it 310 at sea level, its not physically possible. maybe you carry it 275 or 280 with optimal launch conditions but not 310.

True.  Some of us actually do post swing videos too, so we can actually get some idea what the truth is!  It makes my stomach turn when I see a post like "I have a 130mph SS" and they post a video with a swing that looks like a) they couldn't hit a grapefruit on a tee and b) their back's days are numbered.

Honestly, it's fun to talk numbers and try and tweak things, but I realized after pillaging my own money last year that my time is better spent improving than ho'ing.  Yeah, my swing speed has been measured anywhere from 110 to 117, but I don't trust every launch monitor I see. In real life I play at sea level (literally, on the Chesapeake) and often in a 1-2 club wind.  Optimization is trumped by confidence and hitting fairways.  With back to back holes in a wind like that, I might have a 250 carry and a 310 carry on back to back holes. So it goes.

What I do know is that being dishonest on here only hurts you in the long run.  When you do that, you might actually find a club that you don't want to sell the next day on BST.

[wobgon]

I was just looking over some score cards from some of my local clubs. Must be something wrong with these cards. I see no place to write in spin rate, launch angle, or side spin. Some of them don't even have a place for smash factor. These cards are worthless................It's really hard to figure how guys like Hogan,Nicklaus,Player,and Palmer ever broke par without the help of a launch monitor ?????

[mantan]

As someone said earlier, the male ego is a powerful force.

Even in a thread where people are talking about questioning distance...some people feel compelled to still slip their numbers in there.

I never understood the fascination.   Most people on this board will never meet.  How far somebody else hits the ball (or claims to hit the ball) has absolutely zero impact on you or your golf game.  If someone claims, or generally believes they hit the ball farther than you...who cares?   You see the same things on all forums. Everybody on the Apple forum claims they bought in cheaper.  Everybody on a car forum gets more horsepower out of their ride than possible.  On watch forums people claim highly questionably purchase prices.... take it all with a grain of salt and move on.

[Parker0065]

Telling Big Fish stories has been around since the beginning of time so these "Distance" threads are always fun to read.

If someone wants to think they drive it 280-300 when they really hit it 230-250 whats the harm. If they really are that gullable and they want to prove themselves, all they have to do is sign up for a US open qualifier and they will get a gigantic dose of reality. I'm 46 years old, I'm 5'10", with a 109mph swing speed and I hit it around 280. At our local US open qualifier I was paired with two young pro's in their early 20's. They were both at least 6 feet tall with very good golf swings and they hit the ball right at 300 yards all day. So I was 15-20 yards behind them all day and that is exactly what I would expect. When I play with the general public or even good amatuer players I'm rarely ever outdriven, and many of those players actually think I am hitting it over 300 yards,lol!  


I will add that I believe "Swing Speed" is misleading for a lot of people. They go down to Golf Galaxy and register a 110mph swing speed and think they are crushing it. The truth is most players, including many 1-5 handicaps lose their lag, or "Throw it away" just before impact losing a ton of distance. They try to swing so hard at the ball they come out of the shot by just a fraction, their lead shoulder starts to come up and their lag swings open like a gate and they come into the ball with straight arms. Maybe they had the clubhead traveling at 110mph sometime during the swing but their "Impact Position" is so bad that they don't properly strike the ball with weight forward, hands slightly ahead with some shaft lean. Distance is not about swinging hard, it's about being in the correct position at impact. I don't know what the math calculations would be, but I wouldn't be suprised if a player with 100mph swing speed with a correct impact position could easily outdrive a player with 105-110mph swing speed and a bad impact position!!

Edited by Parker0065, 16 April 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[kellygreen]

RRFireblade, on 15 April 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

How are you supposed to "help the best you can" when you know someone is full of $hit?

Isn't helping them back to reality, help?

1. If someone is lying that badly, and want to choose a shaft that is based upon such an outrageous lie....you stand little chance of saving them from themselves.   As the OP stated, the pain of trying to play a shaft that is woefully ill-suited to them will snap them back to reality.   You can't save people from themselves....and some things they just have to learn the hard way.

2. To people who AREN'T lying---and places like this draw from such a large (and largely self-selected) group of avid golfers so the odds are good that many people are NOT lying----you can come accross as rude and patronizing:

"I know your game better than you do, even though I've never seen you hit a shot...."

Which is why many blade players find the GI iron players who pound their shoe on the table insisting that everyone who isn't a pro needs to play GI irons (like they do), to be REALLY annoying.

The proverbial unmarried, marriage counselor.

[geesecougar2]

How about we stop quoting the flex of whatever shaft we are using/testing when the information, unless the flex is relevant to the actual review? I'm not talking about signatures or when reviewing different shafts, how they compare in terms of feel, how one in a certain flex may feel softer than another in the same flex, but for some reason those posts saying, "I hit the new RBZ with HD6 X flex and it's a cannon!" really annoy me. It's almost like people think their opinion only counts if they are hitting an X.

[wobgon]

geesecougar2, on 16 April 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

How about we stop quoting the flex of whatever shaft we are using/testing when the information, unless the flex is relevant to the actual review? I'm not talking about signatures or when reviewing different shafts, how they compare in terms of feel, how one in a certain flex may feel softer than another in the same flex, but for some reason those posts saying, "I hit the new RBZ with HD6 X flex and it's a cannon!" really annoy me. It's almost like people think their opinion only counts if they are hitting an X.

Why put shaft flex or how much shaft is tipped in sig. Does anyone really care ?

[Swingie]

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

geesecougar2, on 16 April 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

How about we stop quoting the flex of whatever shaft we are using/testing when the information, unless the flex is relevant to the actual review? I'm not talking about signatures or when reviewing different shafts, how they compare in terms of feel, how one in a certain flex may feel softer than another in the same flex, but for some reason those posts saying, "I hit the new RBZ with HD6 X flex and it's a cannon!" really annoy me. It's almost like people think their opinion only counts if they are hitting an X.

Why put shaft flex or how much shaft is tipped in sig. Does anyone really care ?

Yes, many including myself do care. If you are an equipment ho asking people who have played a club /shaft combo or peice you are considering weighs on your opinion. Also diff flexes affect torque and spin so the review of a club can potentially be altered depending on the shaft and flex.
Example - a Razrfit 9.5 with an 8a4 or with a AdDI7 stiff would be two bad mutha setups but diff reviews on playability, Id listen very closely to one of those reviews personally JMO.

[Pepperturbo]

I agree with the OP... some readers need to get out around better golfers, and not be so skeptical.  A few guys have really strong SS's.  That doesn't mean they are really good golfers.  They are likely swinging out of their shoes;that which most good golfers don't typically do, unless you're Bubba.  Don't forget realizing distance is the result of SS combined with solid ball striking, and physical conditioning plays a roll as well.  Too many "online" people don't realize Michigan & NY vs AZ or CA conditions can have differing distance results, but solid ball striking skill, or the lack there of plays a major roll when it comes to "carry distance and run out distance.  Regardless of location, golf is essentially about the score walking off 18, not how far someone hits it.

[Swingie]

Pepperturbo, on 16 April 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I agree with the OP... some readers need to get out around better golfers, and not be so skeptical.  A few guys have really strong SS's.  That doesn't mean they are really good golfers.  They are likely swinging out of their shoes;that which most good golfers don't typically do, unless you're Bubba.  Don't forget realizing distance is the result of SS combined with solid ball striking, and physical conditioning plays a roll as well.  Too many "online" people don't realize Michigan & NY vs AZ or CA conditions can have differing distance results, but solid ball striking skill, or the lack there of plays a major roll when it comes to "carry distance and run out distance.  Regardless of location, golf is essentially about the score walking off 18, not how far someone hits it.

Dude, you are guilty of too many good posts....most every topic you have solid insight. Too many people use thier current situation/conditions blended with ego and extropolate across the whole population = erronious judgement

[Evolved]

kitsoasis, on 15 April 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't get the quoted debate in the OP... does anyone mind giving me a quick rundown?

That 's the irony of this thread. The OP didn't pick up on the sarcasm and took it at face value. The quoted posts have nothing to do with questioning distance.

[Myherobobhope]

Evolved, on 16 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

kitsoasis, on 15 April 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't get the quoted debate in the OP... does anyone mind giving me a quick rundown?

That 's the irony of this thread. The OP didn't pick up on the sarcasm and took it at face value. The quoted posts have nothing to do with questioning distance.

Was it sarcastic? I actually don't know. It easily could be... especially if the poster is aware who ROBO is. I didn't read it as such, and was just using it as an example. If it was sarcasm, then it is a pitch perfect mockery of exactly what I'm complaining about.

The thread is a bad example in general because it was ROBO, and no one else jumped in and derailed the thread...

I also don't catch sarcasm online... text is a bad way to convey subtlety.

[wobgon]

Swingie, on 16 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

geesecougar2, on 16 April 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

How about we stop quoting the flex of whatever shaft we are using/testing when the information, unless the flex is relevant to the actual review? I'm not talking about signatures or when reviewing different shafts, how they compare in terms of feel, how one in a certain flex may feel softer than another in the same flex, but for some reason those posts saying, "I hit the new RBZ with HD6 X flex and it's a cannon!" really annoy me. It's almost like people think their opinion only counts if they are hitting an X.

Why put shaft flex or how much shaft is tipped in sig. Does anyone really care ?

Yes, many including myself do care. If you are an equipment ho asking people who have played a club /shaft combo or peice you are considering weighs on your opinion. Also diff flexes affect torque and spin so the review of a club can potentially be altered depending on the shaft and flex.
Example - a Razrfit 9.5 with an 8a4 or with a AdDI7 stiff would be two bad mutha setups but diff reviews on playability, Id listen very closely to one of those reviews personally JMO.

I understand a reveiw, just dont see why it is needed on sig,

[wobgon]

Myherobobhope, on 16 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Evolved, on 16 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

kitsoasis, on 15 April 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't get the quoted debate in the OP... does anyone mind giving me a quick rundown?

That 's the irony of this thread. The OP didn't pick up on the sarcasm and took it at face value. The quoted posts have nothing to do with questioning distance.

Was it sarcastic? I actually don't know. It easily could be... especially if the poster is aware who ROBO is. I didn't read it as such, and was just using it as an example. If it was sarcasm, then it is a pitch perfect mockery of exactly what I'm complaining about.

The thread is a bad example in general because it was ROBO, and no one else jumped in and derailed the thread...

I also don't catch sarcasm online... text is a bad way to convey subtlety.

Why is it a bad example because it is ROBO ?????

[Thrillhouse]

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

I understand a reveiw, just dont see why it is needed on sig,

Were here because we like clubs and shafts. I like to see what people have in their sigs just like I like to see what people have in their witb pics. For a lot of us here this is our major hobby, were having fun with it.

[StevenF]

There is NO fun allowed this is a SERIOUS discussion forum about golf and golf clubs.

[Hoot151]

There's a mini-tour guy that frequents the same range I do and I've gotten to know pretty well.  It has confirmed 2 things for me, 1) the difference in ball striking between the average low handicap and aspiring pro is downright emasculating and depressing, 2) yes, some people can hit ridiculous distances.  He just got fitted for a club off the tee that won't go over 280.  It was a 5 wood.  Yep, I stood there and watched him hit it farther than my driver.  I won't even mention the stinger driver that he can hit for the Texas wind.  It was just silly, he's the best non-PGA ball striker I've ever seen in person and I've played with a lot of very good players.

Edited by Hoot151, 17 April 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[kitsoasis]

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Why is it a bad example because it is ROBO ?????

Because he's one of the more respected and knowledgeable posters on this forum. I don't know him personally so it doesn't mean that he won't ever bs, but it certainly means he has less reason to.

BSing about distances and SS is about one stroking their own ego, and I don't think ROBO needs to do that.  Again, like 99.9% of people on here he's just a username to me, but his username is a highly regarded one in my books.

[kellygreen]

Parker0065, on 16 April 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

Telling Big Fish stories has been around since the beginning of time so these "Distance" threads are always fun to read.

If someone wants to think they drive it 280-300 when they really hit it 230-250 whats the harm. If they really are that gullable and they want to prove themselves, all they have to do is sign up for a US open qualifier and they will get a gigantic dose of reality. I'm 46 years old, I'm 5'10", with a 109mph swing speed and I hit it around 280. At our local US open qualifier I was paired with two young pro's in their early 20's. They were both at least 6 feet tall with very good golf swings and they hit the ball right at 300 yards all day. So I was 15-20 yards behind them all day and that is exactly what I would expect. When I play with the general public or even good amatuer players I'm rarely ever outdriven, and many of those players actually think I am hitting it over 300 yards,lol!  


I will add that I believe "Swing Speed" is misleading for a lot of people. They go down to Golf Galaxy and register a 110mph swing speed and think they are crushing it. The truth is most players, including many 1-5 handicaps lose their lag, or "Throw it away" just before impact losing a ton of distance. They try to swing so hard at the ball they come out of the shot by just a fraction, their lead shoulder starts to come up and their lag swings open like a gate and they come into the ball with straight arms. Maybe they had the clubhead traveling at 110mph sometime during the swing but their "Impact Position" is so bad that they don't properly strike the ball with weight forward, hands slightly ahead with some shaft lean. Distance is not about swinging hard, it's about being in the correct position at impact. I don't know what the math calculations would be, but I wouldn't be suprised if a player with 100mph swing speed with a correct impact position could easily outdrive a player with 105-110mph swing speed and a bad impact position!!

Yes and no.

A hard swing that fails to produce the right impact conditions will not hit the ball very far....but a swing with perfect impact conditions that doesn't generate any speed won't hit it very far either.

The challenge (like being a major league pitcher) is striking the right balance of power...and precision of contact.   Good players hit the ball a long way, not because they swing "hard"....but because their swings are technically sound and efficient, and thus generate a great deal of speed without a lot of perceived "effort."

Then their contact is solid with good impact conditions...and they efficiently transfer the energy their swings generate to the golf ball.

Average players have the problems that they do, because that chain breaks down.  They have inefficient, technically-flawed swings..and thus feel they have to "swing hard" in order to generate speed.   Then they make glancing contact with the golf ball...and transfer that energy in an equally inefficient manner.

[andef]

If I create a new thread asking for help on a driver shaft and say that my swing speed in 110, why would I be lying? I'm asking a serious question so that people with good knowledge of equipment on here can give me some help with regards to something that would improve my game. I don't see any benefit in saying my swingspeed is 118 instead of 110 because I'll get feedback that's useless for me.
You'll always find people that lie about their swing speeds because they have nothing better to do than argue and make up stuff on an internet forum, just like you'll find people who enjoy arguing or calling out people on what they think is a lie just because they feel like it or don't have the same ability as others.
Over time, you'll be able to tell which users try to be helpful and which ones show up to just ruin the party so to speak. I've been on here consistently for at least a year, so I can often tell by the username whether the post will be of a helpful sort or something I should just ignore.

[V-twin]

"What club you hit" 150 yard par 3 "Pitching Wedge" they pull out a pitching wedge and go 130 tops and wonder what happend. Some people hit it longer , I do with my irons jacked up lofts  or not  with my MP32's 145 to 150 my Di11 I can get  155 to 165.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

One day years ago I caught up with a twosome on the back nine of a public course I'd played a couple times before. One big muscular guy and one little skinny guy, both 10-15 years younger than me. The 17th hole is a slightly downhill Par 3 with a huge bunker in front of the green and a steep embankment behind the green all the way up to the 18th tee. Very shallow green, only about 16-18 paces deep. Playing maybe 165-170 yards slightly downhill.

The other guys were the tail-end of an alternate shot afternoon round following a tournament that morning. It was the big guy's turn to hit on the Par 3. He pulls out a pitching wedge and blows it over the green and a few  yards up the embankment. I look at the 7-wood in my hand and think "I know I need more than a short iron but C'MON!". So I grabbed a 5-iron and figured it must be more downhill than it looks.

Of course I flew it right into the front bunker. The skinny guy looks at me real serious-like and says "Don't EVER look at what club this guy hits, he's a freak". So we walk down to the green, I hit up onto the fringe somewhere and eventually three-jack for my double. The skinny guy goes up the hill with a lob wedge, pulls a Tom Watson and chips the ball into the hole for a birdie. Never seen anything like those two shots.

As we walked to the next tee I asked how they were doing in the alternate-shot game. The skinny guy says "Well let's see, we were two under so that birdie makes it three". I was like "You mean Net 3-under" and he says "No, just regular 3-under". In alternate shot. So anyway, that's the last time I payed any attention to what club another person uses. Learned that lesson real well and it stuck with me.

[wobgon]

kitsoasis, on 17 April 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Why is it a bad example because it is ROBO ?????

Because he's one of the more respected and knowledgeable posters on this forum. I don't know him personally so it doesn't mean that he won't ever bs, but it certainly means he has less reason to.

BSing about distances and SS is about one stroking their own ego, and I don't think ROBO needs to do that.  Again, like 99.9% of people on here he's just a username to me, but his username is a highly regarded one in my books.

Thats what i thought...............What do you really know about him??

[greens hit]

wobgon, on 16 April 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

geesecougar2, on 16 April 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

How about we stop quoting the flex of whatever shaft we are using/testing when the information, unless the flex is relevant to the actual review? I'm not talking about signatures or when reviewing different shafts, how they compare in terms of feel, how one in a certain flex may feel softer than another in the same flex, but for some reason those posts saying, "I hit the new RBZ with HD6 X flex and it's a cannon!" really annoy me. It's almost like people think their opinion only counts if they are hitting an X.

Why put shaft flex or how much shaft is tipped in sig. Does anyone really care ?

Apparently you do.

[phatchrisrules]

Based on my 7.5 years at a golf retail store, I can hopefully provide some information on this topic.  Does it really matter whether the person is lying about their swing speed/smash factor/carry or total distance?  No.  At the end of the day I sleep fine.  But as one poster pointed out almost right away, was that it does help the person to level them back to reality whether the OP realizes it or not.  I'll give you an example.  If I took everything I heard people tell me at my job for the truth, my average driver sale would be along the lines of: 8.5*, low launch, low spin, extra stiff shaft.  That's a really large discrepancy compared to the study the USGA or Golfdigest (I can't remember) did a few years ago when they studied the average driver distance of players and found that most people do not hit over 215 yards when measured correctly.

Hmmm....who do you think is lying here?  

It comes down to three important factors:

1) Ego.  People watch the tournaments and they see Rickie Fowler or Bubba Watson for example, who are like string beans, it looks like not an ounce of muscle on them, and they easily hit it 290-300+ all day long.  So the average male, gets intimidated by this, thinking "I'm stronger than they are, so I MUST be able to hit it just as far, if not farther than they do."

2) Somebody mentioned it above as well, that course markers and scorecards make it seem like people hit farther than they actually do.  Sure that Par 4 may be 450 yards and you only had 120-130 yards left in.  But did you take into account the drop in elevation, the considerable tailwind or rock hard fairways?  No.  People don't, I know I don't take fairway speed into consideration, but I do take into account elevation changes.  Also, a lot of these older courses that people are playing like your average muni track, may not have up to date, correct laser yardages.  I don't know how many times I've been standing around the 150 stake to a middlish pin, used my laser to double check yardage, and it is out by 15-20 yards.  Sure, these digital measuring devices are helping, but not everybody has the money to afford a GPS that gives them actual yardages off the tee.

3) Again, this has been said before as well, people remember that one drive.  Just like they remember that one girl/guy back in high school or college.  Sure, most of us all have the potential to score those big drives, or those incredible girls/guys, or large, trophy-worthy fish, but on the average, it is not a routine occurrence.  As the law of averages says, the meat sits between that 25-75% chunk of the curve, while some people luck out and are further towards the elite end of the spectrum and can hit the ball inhuman distances all day long with virtually no (apparent) effort on their part.  This also ties in a little bit with #1.  People who are the longest hitters in their group of playing partners, mostly assume they must hit the ball at least 260+, because their Uncle Fred, who is a good player and has been playing for years, HAS to hit the ball at least 240-250, because well, he just does all the time.

I'll conclude with a little bit of evidence I have found, before I turn this into a novel nobody will read.  I have found that the people who boast the loudest about how far they hit it, or how fast they swing, or how high they hit it, are just average frankly.  It's the quiet guys who just want to get the right club for them and never mention a word about how far they hit are usually the ones who absolutely munch the ball.  I had a guy buy a 910D3 off of me on Saturday, set to 8.75 with a RIP 60 Stiff.  He swung between 119-125 on the simulator.  His best carry was 315, and he walked out with it, despite my protests that he was likely better off ordering the same head in a RIP 70X to get a little more control.  He didn't care, he liked the way it felt.  Pretty simple when you don't overthink it huh?

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

A lot of people's recall concerning their distances is along the lines of the Golfer's Prayer I saw quoted in a David Owen book.

Please, Lord. Just once let me play my usual game.