131 replies to this topic

[j_moo]

One of the things people mentioned when asked what is the difference between average and better players is how the better players are good from 100 yards in.  This made me wonder about a couple of things:

• Unless playing a course with short par 3s or 4s, which are rare nowadays (of course it also depends on how far one hits the ball), the only 100 yard shots, if not in trouble, on a course are when laying up on par 5s.  So, at most, there are only 4 of those shots in a round.  They become very important if converted into birdies, especially when taking the risk out of the 2nd shot.  But if one has confidence in the long game, wouldn't it be easier to get there in 2 and get up and down for birdie even if the approach is 50 yards short?  In which case, there are no 100 yard shots in the round.
• It's great to be able to save par from 100 yards.  However, wouldn't it be better to work on the drive so that it is not necessary?  If I didn't save par from 100 yards more than 3 times a round, I'd probably think it's the tee shot and not the wedge shot that's the problem.  If you are good off the tee, probably don't have too many of these to save par.
• Is this shot important because everyone has become longer so even 400+ yard par 4s are bomb and gouge?

[raynorfan1]

 j_moo, on 14 April 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

One of the things people mentioned when asked what is the difference between average and better players is how the better players are good from 100 yards in.  This made me wonder about a couple of things:

• Unless playing a course with short par 3s or 4s, which are rare nowadays (of course it also depends on how far one hits the ball), the only 100 yard shots, if not in trouble, on a course are when laying up on par 5s.  So, at most, there are only 4 of those shots in a round.  They become very important if converted into birdies, especially when taking the risk out of the 2nd shot.  But if one has confidence in the long game, wouldn't it be easier to get there in 2 and get up and down for birdie even if the approach is 50 yards short?  In which case, there are no 100 yard shots in the round.
• It's great to be able to save par from 100 yards.  However, wouldn't it be better to work on the drive so that it is not necessary?  If I didn't save par from 100 yards more than 3 times a round, I'd probably think it's the tee shot and not the wedge shot that's the problem.  If you are good off the tee, probably don't have too many of these to save par.
• Is this shot important because everyone has become longer so even 400+ yard par 4s are bomb and gouge?

Being excellent from 100 yards and in is key for a few reasons. First, assuming you're driving the ball ~250+, your shot onto the green is going to be +- 100 yards on any par 4 that is 375 or less - which is about 2/3rds of them. Plus the Par 5's. Plus the short Par 3. If you can drill it from 100 yards, you're giving yourself a birdie chance on probably 11 out of 18 holes. (six par 4's, one par 3, four par 5's).

And when people say 100 yards and in, they also mean and in. On the longer par 4's and par 3's, it's huge to be able to get up-and-down for par. Say you miss the green with a long iron; being able to hit that 30 yard shot to inside 10 feet every time makes a huge difference. For most amateurs, the 30 yard pitch is something they don't practice enough, and it creates - at best - a 40 foot par putt.

For better golfers, shots from 100 yards and in have more riding on them. If you don't hit a perfect drive, you can still get to the green in regulation with a 5 iron. But if you hit a poor pitch, it's much harder to make up for it.

[jaskanski]

It's pretty simple. Look at your score card a add up the amount of shots using whatever club contribute to the total score. Assuming you had a course of 18 long par 4's, that would only equate to 18 shots with the driver. How do account for the other 100 shots you made?

[EricZ116]

How many people REALLY play from tees that don't give you several par 4s under 400 yards? One of my main courses is 6700 yards [from the 2nd-to-last-tees] (I'm not a tour pro, it's a decent length) and there are still 7 par 4s under 402 yards.

[JJK947]

The 100 yard shot isn't very important, generally it's "100 yards and in".  That includes all those little pitches and half wedge shots from 20-40 yards too.  Those are the shots that help you save par when you miss the green.

You are right though, a mid to mid-low handicapper with average distance playing reasonable length golf courses is going to see a lot more 130-160 yard approaches than 100 and under.

I became very adept with the 100 yards and in shot because most courses we played in high school were 3200 yards or under for nine.  Even hitting long iron and 3 wood off the tee I was still having a lot of approaches in the 75-100 yard range.

Edited by JJK947, 14 April 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[rafal]

For me the score is determined how well I get up and down and how I putt on a given day.  All within 100 yards.  The other stuff is maybe worth +/-3 shots.

[MadGolfer76]

I always thought that 100 yard shot was the stepping stone to other shots inside of that range.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 14 April 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[DJ Aus]

100 and in is where the money is, you have to remember all these things are averages. Tee shot accuracy is important but a good short game and putter hides a lot of sins. The thing that got me from 6 down to 3 was working hard on my short game and putting, the thing I find is if this is going well it generally translates into my long game as there is less pressure on it, and if the bottom half of the swing is grooved it is not that hard to extend to the full swing.



Look at a guy like Nick O'Hern, he hardly htis it anywhere but still manages to make a lot of cash and it is all on the back of being great inside 100. Look at any tournament and the guy who wins is generally the guy who is best inside 100 and on the greens, driving distance and accuracy isnt a good predictor.



A lot of teachers say you should practice 70% inside 100 and 30% the rest, changing to this ratio is what helped me play my best and I can't recommend it highly enough

Edited by DJ Aus, 14 April 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[PingG10guy]

OP...if you are scared to hit a 100 yard shot, or you dont want to practice it; Yes, you should plan around it and leave yourself a yardage you are comfortable with.

[596]

I figured this out once before in another thread.  I hear all the time about practicing from 0-100 yards.  I don't.  I spend the majority of my practice time from 100-200 yards.  I drive the ball average of 250.....on most par 4's that leaves me at least 100 yards or more to the green.  Even if the hole is less then that, say 330-350 and I don't hit an average drive I'm still at least 100 yards out.  On my home course there is only one maybe 2 holes that allow me inside 100 yards from my drive.  On most of the holes I'm hitting PW-5 irons to the greens......why am I practicing 0-100 when I'm standing on average 100-200 yards out on 16 of 18 fairways.  This includes ALL par 3's and ALL par 5's.  

I hit WAY MORE 100-200 yard shots in a round then I do from 20-100 yards.  When was the last time you played a par 4 hole and were standing at 150 yards with an 8 iron in your hand and then had to hit the next shot from 75 yards?  I'll give you that the next shot might be a little pitch/chip and putt but it's not from 75 very often.

I practice a small amount around the greens, say from 15 yards max to 15ft chips, done.   I chip and putt really well, so I don't practice that much at all, I practice driving a little bit since I drive the ball well.  I practice 80% of my time from 100-200 yards where the majority of my shots are from on any given round, not including chips and putts.

36 putts per round
14 drivers per round
16 100-200 shots per round (all par 3's, 8 par 4 appraoches and 4 par 5's, either approaches or layups)
2  appraoches from inside 100
= 68 shots per round (my average is 74.6)  

This leaves only 6/7 more shots, say chips and pitches or whatever., MAYBE even from 20-100 yards, but its only a few at most per round.

Very few shots from 20-100 unless I messed up a tee shot or second shot on a par 5.  I can easily hit a green from less then 100 with an easy 3-9 swing with the appropriate club,  60yds=pw, 70=9i, 80=8i and 90=7i. But I only need this shot 1-2 times per round and at that point I'll take my par or bogey and go home.

I'm just not seeing the practice from 20-100 at all.  And this works for me.  I dropped the index from 8-9 earlier last year to a 3.5 this year and headed down.  I've been playing for 4 years.

Sorry - that was so long.

[j_moo]

 596, on 15 April 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I figured this out once before in another thread.  I hear all the time about practicing from 0-100 yards.  I don't.  I spend the majority of my practice time from 100-200 yards.  I drive the ball average of 250.....on most par 4's that leaves me at least 100 yards or more to the green.  Even if the hole is less then that, say 330-350 and I don't hit an average drive I'm still at least 100 yards out.  On my home course there is only one maybe 2 holes that allow me inside 100 yards from my drive.  On most of the holes I'm hitting PW-5 irons to the greens......why am I practicing 0-100 when I'm standing on average 100-200 yards out on 16 of 18 fairways.  This includes ALL par 3's and ALL par 5's.  

I hit WAY MORE 100-200 yard shots in a round then I do from 20-100 yards.  When was the last time you played a par 4 hole and were standing at 150 yards with an 8 iron in your hand and then had to hit the next shot from 75 yards?  I'll give you that the next shot might be a little pitch/chip and putt but it's not from 75 very often.

I practice a small amount around the greens, say from 15 yards max to 15ft chips, done.   I chip and putt really well, so I don't practice that much at all, I practice driving a little bit since I drive the ball well.  I practice 80% of my time from 100-200 yards where the majority of my shots are from on any given round, not including chips and putts.

36 putts per round
14 drivers per round
16 100-200 shots per round (all par 3's, 8 par 4 appraoches and 4 par 5's, either approaches or layups)
2  appraoches from inside 100
= 68 shots per round (my average is 74.6)  

This leaves only 6/7 more shots, say chips and pitches or whatever., MAYBE even from 20-100 yards, but its only a few at most per round.

Very few shots from 20-100 unless I messed up a tee shot or second shot on a par 5.  I can easily hit a green from less then 100 with an easy 3-9 swing with the appropriate club,  60yds=pw, 70=9i, 80=8i and 90=7i. But I only need this shot 1-2 times per round and at that point I'll take my par or bogey and go home.

I'm just not seeing the practice from 20-100 at all.  And this works for me.  I dropped the index from 8-9 earlier last year to a 3.5 this year and headed down.  I've been playing for 4 years.

Sorry - that was so long.

Exactly!  I would love to hit 100 yard shot but just don't see that many.  Heck, I have 4 wedges to cover 60-125.  But playing from the back tees, there's at most 4 if I layup on par 5s.  I'd say most of my approaches are from 140-250+.  I don't drive the ball 300 yards so the hole has to be closer to 350-375 for me to have an 100 yard shot.

To be clear, we are not talking about the short game around the green or putting.  It's what they refer to the scoring zone on the tour, you know the distance Steve Striker is really good from.

[glfpunk]

I think you're underestimating the importance of it. My course is 6720 from the tees I play and there are 6 par 4's under 400yds. The two par 5s on the front are not reachable a d the two on the back are reachable only if I hit two big shots.

Say I'm 100yds or less on three of those par 4's. Then you've got the four par 5's where two of them I will be right at 100yds for my third shot and the other two will be 50yds or so. That's 7 shots in a round 100yds or less. And this is t even taking into account situations where I might get into trouble and have to lay up or punch the ball back into play around the 100yd marker. That's a lot. So it makes a huge difference if you have that part of your game dialed in and can hit the ball in a 10ft circle every time from 100yds. If I can get up and in from 100yds half the time I'm saving myself like four strokes a round. And that's me and what I'm saving myself, not even talking about guy that doesn't practice that shot that will hope to hit the green and two putt normally and might even tack on another stroke here and there because they skulled it or chunked it. Either way, four strokes is a lot to me.

Think about playing a match with someone and getting into trouble and knowing its no big deal because you just need to get back to the 100yd marker and you can save par. That's huge.

[rafal]

There are 10-14 100ish shots in my typical round.

[Fitzdog]

Same here.

[Petethreeput]

I think as others have pointed out, it is not "100 yds in" as you note it, but rather "100 yds AND in."

If people are being realistic about their games, at least the average golfer, they probably don't hit as many greens as they think.  So if you calculate the GIR accurately, depending on your HDCP, the short game is the difference.  Mathematically, a 12 hdcp averaging 36 putts a round only hits 6 GIR.  I would suggest anyone wanting to lower their hdcp needs to learn how to get up and down with more one putts.  So, if I consistently get up and down just 33% of the time on those 12 missed greens, I theoretically would lower my hdcp to an 8.  

Continuing with the statistics, Pelz states professional golfers AVERAGE hitting 50% of their putts from 8ft.  Not the weekly winner who hits 95%.  This means that in order to lower my hdcp, I would need to put my recovery shot closer to the hole than this to save par consistently.

As to the OP's point, I think you are correct, the 100 yd shot is not that important.

[inthefairway]

 rafal, on 15 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

There are 10-14 100ish shots in my typical round.

Same here!!  Some of the guys I play against would like to break my wedge!!! So 100 in and 100 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by inthefairway, 15 April 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[k b]

 Petethreeput, on 15 April 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

I think as others have pointed out, it is not "100 yds in" as you note it, but rather "100 yds AND in."

If people are being realistic about their games, at least the average golfer, they probably don't hit as many greens as they think.  So if you calculate the GIR accurately, depending on your HDCP, the short game is the difference.  Mathematically, a 12 hdcp averaging 36 putts a round only hits 6 GIR.  I would suggest anyone wanting to lower their hdcp needs to learn how to get up and down with more one putts.  So, if I consistently get up and down just 33% of the time on those 12 missed greens, I theoretically would lower my hdcp to an 8.  

Continuing with the statistics, Pelz states professional golfers AVERAGE hitting 50% of their putts from 8ft.  Not the weekly winner who hits 95%.  This means that in order to lower my hdcp, I would need to put my recovery shot closer to the hole than this to save par consistently.

As to the OP's point, I think you are correct, the 100 yd shot is not that important.

your last sentence depends on who you ask.

everyone plays different so i definitely can't speak for anyone but myself...but for me, the 100 yard shot is critical, only because it's my target for many holes.   for shorter par 4's and longer par 5's i'm always looking at the 100 yard mark for my approach and use whatever club that will leave me 100 yds.

[Myherobobhope]

 596, on 15 April 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

I hit WAY MORE 100-200 yard shots in a round then I do from 20-100 yards.  When was the last time you played a par 4 hole and were standing at 150 yards with an 8 iron in your hand and then had to hit the next shot from 75 yards?  I'll give you that the next shot might be a little pitch/chip and putt but it's not from 75 very often.

I practice a small amount around the greens, say from 15 yards max to 15ft chips, done.   I chip and putt really well, so I don't practice that much at all, I practice driving a little bit since I drive the ball well.  I practice 80% of my time from 100-200 yards where the majority of my shots are from on any given round, not including chips and putts.

36 putts per round
14 drivers per round
16 100-200 shots per round (all par 3's, 8 par 4 appraoches and 4 par 5's, either approaches or layups)
2  appraoches from inside 100
= 68 shots per round (my average is 74.6)  

This leaves only 6/7 more shots, say chips and pitches or whatever., MAYBE even from 20-100 yards, but its only a few at most per round.


I'm just not seeing the practice from 20-100 at all.  And this works for me.  I dropped the index from 8-9 earlier last year to a 3.5 this year and headed down.  I've been playing for 4 years.

To me, mastering 100 yards and in is the next step for a golfer. There is a point of diminishing returns practicing with the driver (once you are confident about putting it in the fairway) and full iron shots. Once you are confident with full shots, it's time to beef up the short game...

In your case, reducing the 36 putts would come from consistently hitting it closer on wedge shots and having more one putts.

At least, that's how I look at it.

[596]

I agree that the 100 yard shot is important.  That's why I practice at 100-200 yards.  I don't practice at 20-100.  I don't see many shots from 20- to say 80 yards.   That's no man's land.   I don't consider standing at the practice putting green and chippping and maybe pitching as practicing those half shots every one talks about from up to 100 yards.  There's a huge difference between a 25ft chip and putt and an 80 yard recovery shot after the driver went into the woods.  

I hit many more shots from less then 20 yards and 100-400 then I do from 20-80.   Don't get me wrong...I warmup hitting pw and 9 irons about 60-80 yards.  But thats all the practice I do at that distance.  It's not worth more then that.   I guess as I short hitter I'm not inside 100 that often after a drive : )  If you hit monster 320yd drives with an easy swing into the wind on a 410 yard par 4, please feel free to practice the 80 yard shot.  I personally don't see that shot very often in a round.

[EricZ116]

Well clearly you'll see more mid/short iron shots than 60-100 yard shots a round but that's a given to practice hitting greens in reg with your irons... But with the 60-100 yard shots we're talking about not only hitting the green, but putting yourself in a good position to get up and down, hitting that shot consistently in a makeable range for the putt. The 60-100 yard range is a place where you should be looking to get up and down, or at worst taking 3 shots. The reason there is so much emphasis on it is that these are easy strokes to clean up, there is no excuse for hitting it off the green, hitting a poor chip, and then 2 putting. Also, the techniques in these shorter (but still crisp) strokes transfer over to the "full" shots as well.

Edited by EricZ116, 15 April 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[raynorfan1]

 EricZ116, on 15 April 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Also, the techniques in these shorter (but still crisp) strokes transfer over to the "full" shots as well.

This is a key when it comes to practice. I spend a lot of time practicing a 100 yard wedge shot to get it really crisp. How often do I have this shot in a round? Maybe once or twice. But I find that if I'm really crisp with the mechanics of this shot, the longer irons fall into place.

[tom93084]

Wedge practice is way overrated. If i can hit my driver straight i can certainly hit a club with 50+ loft straight. Once you have good long game technique, pitching becomes easy because your hitting it solid each time. Once you get that its all a matter of hand eye coordination and trusting your body.

[CallawayLefty]

I disagree that 100 yards AND in is an overrated practice point for most golfers.  I think the point is that you can practice mid range wedges, long and short pitches, chips, sand, and putts and develop a level of precision that you simply will never find with your longer shots (i.e. 100 yard plus, and especially 150 and up).  A really really good shot from 150 is within 10 feet.  In fact, the #1 player on the tour at the moment (Graeme McDowell) averages 21'4" from 150 to 175 yards.  So that's about the absolute top end in terms of precision that you can master.  The guy in last place (Jamie Lovemark) averages 37'7" from 150-175.   So that gives you a decent look at the range of precision you can reasonably develop with your short and mid irons.  Obviously it only gets worse from there.  By comparison, you can develop substantially more precision with short shots because, well, they're shorter (i.e. fewer variables, more room for error, etc.).  Mark Anderson, the #1 for scrambling inside 10 yards on the tour, gets up and down 100% of the time from within 10 yards.  Martin Laird, who is in dead last, still gets up and down 2/3 of the time from 10 yards.  I know as a 5 handicap, if I get it up and down 2/3 of the time, I'm pretty darn happy.  But since I only average 8 or so greens, but typically don't miss by much, that means there's probably 4 shots left on the table between me and Mark Anderson every round just on 10 yard chips.  Sure, they're better than me from 150 too, but I think I can pick up shots more quickly by working on the shorter and easier shots.  It seems to me to be much more attainable to catch Mark Anderson on chipping inside 10 yards than Graeme McDowell on short to mid irons.      

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

The question isn't how many shots you hit with a full swing vs. how many you hit inside 100 yards. If frequency of shot were all that mattered we'd just practice our putting and nothing else.

There are two important questions when deciding between two different things you could practice. How much better can you get at each one and what's the cost of doing each of those things badly?

Inside 100 yards comes up as more important by those two criteria. If you're excellent, by weekend amateur standards, at hitting shots from between 100 and 200 yards you're still going to miss some greens...resulting in chips, pitches and wedge shots. Yet unless you're truly horrible with your full swing, most of you bad shots from 100-200 yards will leave you with...wait for it...a next shot under 100 yards. Once again with the chips, pitches and wedge shots. And any person capable of physically swinging a club and coordinated enough to (mostly) hit the ball first and then the ground can learn to be much better inside 100 yards than an average weekend golfer. The swings themselves are not very athletically demanding and there's enough touch and judgement involved that you get better and better the more you practice, almost without limit.

Long shots are hard to do really, really well. Like well enough to frequently end up with birdie putts inside 20 feet. In fact, some people no matter how much they work at it are never going to have a golf swing that hits 12 GIR and puts half a dozen approach shots inside 15-20 feet per round. But that's how good you've got to get before the inside-100-yard game starts to matter less. If you're missing more than five or six greens per round a bad short game can waste strokes faster than you can ever hope to make birdie putts to make up for it.

So you've got to ask yourself, will some full-swing practice make me good enough from 175 yards out in the fairway  that my chipping, putting and wedge game hardly matters at all? If the answer is truly yes, then by all means you know what to do. Otherwise, you need full-swing improvement AND a solid inside-100-yard game to score well. But the miracle of golf is this...if you have a really solid inside-100-yard game you can get by without hitting 12 GIR and still shoot close to par. It's like magic!

[j_moo]

 rafal, on 15 April 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

There are 10-14 100ish shots in my typical round.

Either you are a monster off the tees or you should be playing from a couple of sets off tees further back.  14 100 yard shots, you are saying that you have them on every par 4 and layup on par 5s?  Haven't seen a 100 yard par 3 since the 80s.

[CallawayLefty]

By the way, saying "practice 100 yards and in" to me encompasses the putter as well.  I would guess that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 or so of my 81 or so shots per round come inside 100 yards.  Putting has got to be one of the most under-practiced components in relation to how many shots are taken in a given round.  I'm planning to start putting some serious work into my putting this year.  If you watch good golfers, they're just deadly on and around the greens.  I see good golfers (i.e. scratch or plus) that vary wildly in ball striking abilities and distances, but they pretty much without exception all have very strong short games.

[j_moo]

 Fourmyle of Ceres, on 16 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Yet unless you're truly horrible with your full swing, most of you bad shots from 100-200 yards will leave you with...wait for it...a next shot under 100 yards.

Like 596 said, if you miss from 100-200, you should be inside of 20 yards.  We agree with you, everyone needs to work on their short game.  But 100 yards?  If that's what you have left after your approach, you need to work on the approach.

[isaacbm]

I would say I have shots inside of 100 yards on about 17 holes per round.  I often stiff one shot per round to inside 3 feet so I don't count the tap ins....

[PingG10guy]

 CallawayLefty, on 16 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

In fact, the #1 player on the tour at the moment (Graeme McDowell) averages 21'4" from 150 to 175 yards.  So that's about the absolute top end in terms of precision that you can master.

Well supported post, but you're using someone's accomplishments as an excuse to limit your own.  I think anybody could hit it to 20 feet from that distance.  Especially somebody who doesnt play on tour.

[CallawayLefty]

 PingG10guy, on 16 April 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

 CallawayLefty, on 16 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

In fact, the #1 player on the tour at the moment (Graeme McDowell) averages 21'4" from 150 to 175 yards.  So that's about the absolute top end in terms of precision that you can master.

Well supported post, but you're using someone's accomplishments as an excuse to limit your own.  I think anybody could hit it to 20 feet from that distance.  Especially somebody who doesnt play on tour.

I'm not sure I follow...I agree that almost anyone can knock it to 20 feet from 150 on a given shot, but we're talking about practicing to develop the ability to do something repeatedly.  GMac, who is numero uno on the planet at the moment in that stat category, averages 21+" on approaches from that distance.  I promise you that there ain't too many guys out at the home course who can top that regardless of how much they practice.  And this isn't an excuse to limit my own progress.  I just am getting to a point now where I'm starting to see diminishing returns from practicing 7 irons.  A really good 7 iron is 20 feet away.  A bad 7 iron is 20 yards away.  Both now require me to use my skills inside of 20 yards to do anything.  I could practice 7 irons all day every day and those results aren't going to change much.  However, since I'm probably averaging over 2 shots to get them down from there (simply by virtue of failing to get up and down every time I miss and rarely making 20 footers when I don't miss), there are shots being left on the table that should be easy to pick up.  And I think this applies for lots of folks, especially those trying to go from high single digits down to the scratch level (i.e. me).