Jump to content

Welcome, Guest. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Lift clean and place ruling


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 mstrymxer

mstrymxer

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 293 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102835
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Tennessee
GolfWRX Likes : 27

Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:00 PM

so we were playing sunday and it was absolutely soaked. playing lift clean place within a grip any direction.

after a drive my ball end up in a hole. filled with water in the  middle of fairway. dont know why its there but it has no paint or marking. the hole is approx the sizeof a basketball and prob 16" deep. i pull the ball and put it on the edge of the hole and play on. i end up bogeying and someone says what about ur drop. i replied i didnt take a drop i only LCP. he said its not allowed bc it moved more than a grip vertically.

now it was just a fun match so nobody really cared.

how would you have ruled this?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

#2 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 682 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 44

Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:36 PM

 mstrymxer, on 04 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

so we were playing sunday and it was absolutely soaked. playing lift clean place within a grip any direction.

after a drive my ball end up in a hole. filled with water in the  middle of fairway. dont know why its there but it has no paint or marking. the hole is approx the sizeof a basketball and prob 16" deep. i pull the ball and put it on the edge of the hole and play on. i end up bogeying and someone says what about ur drop. i replied i didnt take a drop i only LCP. he said its not allowed bc it moved more than a grip vertically.

now it was just a fun match so nobody really cared.

how would you have ruled this?

I don't know on what golf course in the world a hole that is 10 inches in diameter and 16 inches deep is not ground under repair or a hole created by a burrowing animal. Free drop in either case.

#3 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 04 April 2012 - 05:52 PM

Here are a couple of thoughts for you, though they are technical and perhaps not what you're interested in if "nobody really cared."

First, in the Appendix I section of the Rules, there is a suggested local rule for "lift, clean and place."  The Ruling Bodies suggest that you adopt their wording for local rules, though it's possible that alternate wording would be equally acceptable.  But I don't believe that your alternate wording, which allows one to place in "any direction" would pass muster -- given it allows you to place closer to the hole.  So, as a start, I don't believe your local rule is "legal."  That being the case, everyone is wrong all day -- not just you in this particular situation.

---------------------


c. “Preferred Lies” and “Winter Rules”
Ground under repair is provided for in Rule 25and occasional local abnormal conditions that might interfere with fair play and are not widespread should be defined as ground under repair.

However, adverse conditions, such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can make fairways unsatisfactory and sometimes prevent use of heavy mowing equipment. When such conditions are so general throughout a course that the Committee believes “preferred lies” or “winter rules” would promote fair play or help protect the course, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

A player may place his ball only once, and it is in play when it has been placed (Rule 20-4). If the ball fails to come to rest on the spot on which it is placed, Rule 20-3d applies. If the ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

If the player fails to mark the position of the ball before lifting it or moves the ball in any other manner, such as rolling it with a club, he incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Note: “Closely mown area” means any area of the course, including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.


*PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

*If a player incurs the general penalty for a breach of this Local Rule, no additional penalty under the Local Rule is applied.”

-----------------------

Now let me move on.  Your ball was in a hole which was clearly not a water hazard, and which clearly showed water under/around the ball.  This, even if it wasn't in the fairway, would have allowed you Abnormal Ground Condition free relief within one club length of the NPR, even without the lift/clean/place local rule.  So any claimed violation of having moved your ball more than a grip (vertically) would be moot.  However, since we're being technical here, getting this free relief would have required you to drop, not place, so you violated that particular rule, and any success for you would have required that you took relief from the LCP local rule.

Which gets me to my final point, and perhaps more directly to your question, which is does verticle distance count?  I don't find any decisions in relationship to your specific l/c/p situation, but a closely related ones seems to me to suggest that your accuser was right, that you could not ignore the verticle distance if your ball was on the ground.  You'll have to read far in to this decison to see what I mean:




24-2b/11

Ball Lying on Elevated Part of Immovable Obstruction
Q.A ball comes to rest on the elevated part of an immovable obstruction, such as the walkway of a bridge over a deep hollow. What is the ruling?

A.If the player elects to take relief, vertical distance is disregarded. The nearest point of relief (Point X) is deemed to be at the point on the ground directly beneath where the ball lies on the obstruction, provided the player would not have interference, as defined in Rule 24-2a, at this point. The player may proceed under Rule 24-2b by dropping the ball within one club-length of Point X.

In a situation where there would be interference with some part of the obstruction (e.g., a supporting column) for a ball positioned at Point X, the ball is deemed to lie at Point X. The player may proceed under Rule 24-2b by determining the nearest point of relief for a ball lying at Point X.

The procedure is different where a ball lies underground (e.g., in a tunnel). In such a case, all distance, whether vertical or horizontal, is taken into account when determining the nearest point of relief. In some cases, the nearest point of relief would be near the entrance to the tunnel, and in other cases it would be above the tunnel and would need to be estimated.



#4 sui generis

sui generis

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,260 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132389
  • Joined: 07/05/2011
  • Location:Asheville
GolfWRX Likes : 426

Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:00 PM

 mstrymxer, on 04 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

so we were playing sunday and it was absolutely soaked. playing lift clean place within a grip any direction.

after a drive my ball end up in a hole. filled with water in the  middle of fairway. dont know why its there but it has no paint or marking. the hole is approx the sizeof a basketball and prob 16" deep. i pull the ball and put it on the edge of the hole and play on. i end up bogeying and someone says what about ur drop. i replied i didnt take a drop i only LCP. he said its not allowed bc it moved more than a grip vertically.

now it was just a fun match so nobody really cared.

how would you have ruled this?

Learning to use the Rules of Golf book requires practice. In many cases the Definitions are the first place to go. In this case I would look at Abnormal Ground Conditions and Ground Under Repair. Then, the Table of Contents might suggest that I look to Rule 25.

There are some genuine experts here who'll give you good guidance.
Fast Neat Average Friendly Good Good

#5 teejaywhy

teejaywhy

    Official GolfWRX Curmudgeon

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,754 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 39565
  • Joined: 09/18/2007
  • Location:Arizona
GolfWRX Likes : 758

Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:01 PM

 mstrymxer, on 04 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

so we were playing sunday and it was absolutely soaked. playing lift clean place within a grip any direction.

after a drive my ball end up in a hole. filled with water in the  middle of fairway. dont know why its there but it has no paint or marking. the hole is approx the sizeof a basketball and prob 16" deep. i pull the ball and put it on the edge of the hole and play on. i end up bogeying and someone says what about ur drop. i replied i didnt take a drop i only LCP. he said its not allowed bc it moved more than a grip vertically.

now it was just a fun match so nobody really cared.

how would you have ruled this?

I would have taken relief from an abnormal ground condition (Casual water) and dropped within one club length of the nearest point of relief.  I then would lift clean and place the ball.
  
Rule 25-1.   See definition of "abnormal ground condition" and "casual water"

Also - you're friend adding the vertical component to the LCP is an idiot.


#6 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:16 PM

Here's another closely related decision which, in contrast to 24-2b/11 which I posted above, allows you to ignore verticle distance.  So now I'm really fascinated with what the most reasonable ruling would be!  (Though I suspect that this one would prevail since it's closer to your situation than the earlier one.)


25-1b/23

Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole Out of Bounds and Comes to Rest in Bounds
Q.The entrance to a burrowing animal hole is out of bounds, but most of the burrow is in bounds under the course. A ball enters the hole from out of bounds and comes to rest in bounds under ground classified as through the green. What is the procedure?

A.Under Rule 25-1b, the player may drop the ball, without penalty, within one club-length of the point on the ground directly above its position in the burrow. In such cases, vertical distance is disregarded in applying the Rules.

Edited by Sawgrass, 04 April 2012 - 06:18 PM.


#7 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 04 April 2012 - 06:33 PM

 Sawgrass, on 04 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Here's another closely related decision which, in contrast to 24-2b/11 which I posted above, allows you to ignore verticle distance.  So now I'm really fascinated with what the most reasonable ruling would be!  (Though I suspect that this one would prevail since it's closer to your situation than the earlier one.)


25-1b/23

Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole Out of Bounds and Comes to Rest in Bounds
Q.The entrance to a burrowing animal hole is out of bounds, but most of the burrow is in bounds under the course. A ball enters the hole from out of bounds and comes to rest in bounds under ground classified as through the green. What is the procedure?

A.Under Rule 25-1b, the player may drop the ball, without penalty, within one club-length of the point on the ground directly above its position in the burrow. In such cases, vertical distance is disregarded in applying the Rules.

Also take note of 28/11 and 28/12.

This really has nothing to do with vertical distance, IMHO.  The player was entitled to free relief for GUR or casual water and, after dropping, could use LCP.

#8 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:01 PM

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

This really has nothing to do with vertical distance, IMHO.  The player was entitled to free relief for GUR or casual water and, after dropping, could use LCP.


I agree with you, but having placed and not dropped, the LCP was the only defense he had left, and from that perspective the verticle distance is key.  28/12 causes problems with this, but 25-1b/23 suggests otherwise.  So now what do we do?

#9 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:26 PM

 Sawgrass, on 04 April 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

This really has nothing to do with vertical distance, IMHO.  The player was entitled to free relief for GUR or casual water and, after dropping, could use LCP.


I agree with you, but having placed and not dropped, the LCP was the only defense he had left, and from that perspective the verticle distance is key.  28/12 causes problems with this, but 25-1b/23 suggests otherwise.  So now what do we do?

I'll suggest that when the player placed his ball, he proceeded incorrectly in taking relief for an abnormal ground condition, and incurs a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for breach of Rule 25-1b.  See Decision 20-6/1.
We have act like the Committee for this question and decide the ruling based on what the player did, regardless of what he thought he was doing.

Edited by rogolf, 04 April 2012 - 07:27 PM.


#10 bobfoster

bobfoster

    Best Sport on Earth. Ever.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,118 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 104921
  • Joined: 03/16/2010
  • Location:NYC + London + Mexico DF
GolfWRX Likes : 220

Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 04 April 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

This really has nothing to do with vertical distance, IMHO.  The player was entitled to free relief for GUR or casual water and, after dropping, could use LCP.


I agree with you, but having placed and not dropped, the LCP was the only defense he had left, and from that perspective the verticle distance is key.  28/12 causes problems with this, but 25-1b/23 suggests otherwise.  So now what do we do?

I'll suggest that when the player placed his ball, he proceeded incorrectly in taking relief for an abnormal ground condition, and incurs a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for breach of Rule 25-1b.  See Decision 20-6/1.
We have act like the Committee for this question and decide the ruling based on what the player did, regardless of what he thought he was doing.

I pretty much agree with you on this ... to get really anal and nitpicky, technically, when faced with the situation initially, I believe there's some chance he actually could have picked which rule to invoke ... however, once selected ... he had to conform to the rule he chose to invoke ... i.e., I believe he could have legitimately taken a drop a club length away (no closer to the hole), OR chosen to do L/C/P a grip length away. But I do not think it is correct to take the best part of two seperate rules and sort of mash them together ... ;)

Edited by bobfoster, 04 April 2012 - 08:04 PM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

Remove This Advertisement GolfWRX

GolfWRX

    Team Golfwrx

  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  

Viewing GolfWRX as Guest

Hide these ads and more. Join GolfWRX. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.




#11 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:06 PM

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 04 April 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

This really has nothing to do with vertical distance, IMHO.  The player was entitled to free relief for GUR or casual water and, after dropping, could use LCP.


I agree with you, but having placed and not dropped, the LCP was the only defense he had left, and from that perspective the verticle distance is key.  28/12 causes problems with this, but 25-1b/23 suggests otherwise.  So now what do we do?

I'll suggest that when the player placed his ball, he proceeded incorrectly in taking relief for an abnormal ground condition, and incurs a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for breach of Rule 25-1b.  See Decision 20-6/1.
We have act like the Committee for this question and decide the ruling based on what the player did, regardless of what he thought he was doing.
It seems to me that "what the player did" was attempt to take relief via his l/c/p local rule, and that the question is whether he had the right to place within a grip length of the (low) location of his ball or within a grip length of the point on the surface directly above his ball. My guess is that 25-1b is the closest guiding decision, allowing the location in which he ended up placing, but as I said before, another related decision seems to contradict this, so in my heart I think we need a new decision as to the application of the principle in l/c/p situations.

#12 bobfoster

bobfoster

    Best Sport on Earth. Ever.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,118 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 104921
  • Joined: 03/16/2010
  • Location:NYC + London + Mexico DF
GolfWRX Likes : 220

Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:42 PM

 Sawgrass, on 04 April 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

 rogolf, on 04 April 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:


I'll suggest that when the player placed his ball, he proceeded incorrectly in taking relief for an abnormal ground condition, and incurs a two stroke penalty or loss of hole for breach of Rule 25-1b.  See Decision 20-6/1.
We have act like the Committee for this question and decide the ruling based on what the player did, regardless of what he thought he was doing.
It seems to me that "what the player did" was attempt to take relief via his l/c/p local rule, and that the question is whether he had the right to place within a grip length of the (low) location of his ball or within a grip length of the point on the surface directly above his ball. My guess is that 25-1b is the closest guiding decision, allowing the location in which he ended up placing, but as I said before, another related decision seems to contradict this, so in my heart I think we need a new decision as to the application of the principle in l/c/p situations.

Not sure if we need a new decision ... the real difficulty here is that L/C/P rules are local rules ... with a lot of leeway. A course can do anything from saying it needs to be a grip length, to being a club length (in fact, there's nothing that prevents them from saying two club lengths). The current RoG recommends that local rules read something like: "A ball lying on a closely mown area through the green (or specify a more restricted area, e.g., at the 6th hole) may be lifted, without penalty, and cleaned. Before lifting the ball, the player must mark its position. Having lifted the ball, he must place it on a spot within (specify area, e.g., six inches, one club-length, etc.) of and not nearer the hole than where it originally lay, that is not in a hazard and not on a putting green." ... but there's a lot of wiggle room there.

In this instance, to use the local L/C/P rule, the player needed to place it within a grip-length. And he did not.

#13 Newby

Newby

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,742 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93129
  • Joined: 08/28/2009
  • Location:England
GolfWRX Likes : 375

Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:23 AM

If he was taking relief from casual water he should have dropped.
But as vertical distance is to be discounted when measuring something not at ground level then it would seem that a grip length is a bit more than the diameter of a basket ball and that he correctly placed under the PL local rule.

#14 Mr. Bean

Mr. Bean

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,121 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 146095
  • Joined: 11/09/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 313

Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:09 AM

An interesting topic.

Although I am not 100% certain if the player proceeded correctly one thing is very clear: knowing the Rules would have given him better lie as described by teejaywhy in one of the earlier posts.

#15 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

 Newby, on 05 April 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

If he was taking relief from casual water he should have dropped.
But as vertical distance is to be discounted when measuring something not at ground level then it would seem that a grip length is a bit more than the diameter of a basket ball and that he correctly placed under the PL local rule.

I'm not convinced vertical distance is to be disregarded in this situation, ie, imho, this situation is not analgous to a ball in a burrowing animal hole or a ball in a tree.  Decision 28/11 seems more appropriate.


#16 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:24 AM

 rogolf, on 05 April 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

 Newby, on 05 April 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

If he was taking relief from casual water he should have dropped.
But as vertical distance is to be discounted when measuring something not at ground level then it would seem that a grip length is a bit more than the diameter of a basket ball and that he correctly placed under the PL local rule.

I'm not convinced vertical distance is to be disregarded in this situation, ie, imho, this situation is not analgous to a ball in a burrowing animal hole or a ball in a tree.  Decision 28/11 seems more appropriate.

I remain stuck in trying to determine if 28/12 or 25-1b/23 is the better guide. (I presume you mean 28/12 instead of 28/11 since 28/12 covers the ball being below the fairway level rather than above it.)  The procedure suggested in 25-1b/23 is of course about procedure in an Abnormal Ground Condition, and describes free relief, both of which are analogous to the LCP Local Rule.  28/12 covers an unplayable lie and penalty-based relief, but it's in other ways closer to having your ball end up in a bad place through a more normal situation.

I'm not only uncertain about which decision should guide us here, but I'm beginning to feel that the way we are directed to deal with vertical distance should be consistent, and these two decisions are not.

#17 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:09 AM

Yes, I did mean 28/12.  I believe the sentence in the answer that is pertinent is "the ball at the base of the cliff is on the ground".
Think of a depression on the fairway with sides at a slope of 10* from the horizontal.  Then go to 45*, then to 75*.  In all instances, the ball has a spot on the ground and vertical distance must not be ignored.  Otherwise, at what angle does it change?
A ball in a tree, or in a burrowing animal hole below the surface, does not have a "spot on the ground" and one must be assigned.

#18 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:52 PM

One thing I find particularly appealing about your above post, Rogolf, is that it justifies the inconsistency between the two decisions I've been mulling over.  So let's go with that!

#19 bobfoster

bobfoster

    Best Sport on Earth. Ever.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,118 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 104921
  • Joined: 03/16/2010
  • Location:NYC + London + Mexico DF
GolfWRX Likes : 220

Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:40 PM

 Sawgrass, on 05 April 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

One thing I find particularly appealing about your above post, Rogolf, is that it justifies the inconsistency between the two decisions I've been mulling over.  So let's go with that!

I think the essence of the question here is that he chose to use LCP. He may (in fact, probably could) have applied another rule. And the difficulty here (IMO) is that when one is playing local LCP rules on a course, there is nothing in the RoG that insists that the normal RoG have ascendency over winter rules (or vice versa) when the Venn Diagram overlaps (as it were).

When there is this much vaugeness ... I believe the intention of the golfer is actually the determining factor. I believe he legitimately could have dropped an entire club length ... but he chose to apply LCP (also a legitimate choice) ... but the local LCP rule was a grip length ... and he did not comply with the actual rule he chose.

#20 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:41 PM

 bobfoster, on 05 April 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 05 April 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

One thing I find particularly appealing about your above post, Rogolf, is that it justifies the inconsistency between the two decisions I've been mulling over.  So let's go with that!

I think the essence of the question here is that he chose to use LCP. He may (in fact, probably could) have applied another rule. And the difficulty here (IMO) is that when one is playing local LCP rules on a course, there is nothing in the RoG that insists that the normal RoG have ascendency over winter rules (or vice versa) when the Venn Diagram overlaps (as it were).

When there is this much vaugeness ... I believe the intention of the golfer is actually the determining factor. I believe he legitimately could have dropped an entire club length ... but he chose to apply LCP (also a legitimate choice) ... but the local LCP rule was a grip length ... and he did not comply with the actual rule he chose.

When the ruling must be made by the Committee after the fact, they will consider the intention of the player but it is not the deciding factor.  Based on the facts of the event and the Rules, the Committee will assign Rules to the player's actions.  However, the Committee can never assign Rule 28 since the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
In this case, it could be either a breach of Rule 25-1 (AGC) or the LCP local Rule, either of which will result in the same penalty - loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

Remove This Advertisement GolfWRX

GolfWRX

    Team Golfwrx

  •  
  •  
  •  
  •  

Viewing GolfWRX as Guest

Hide these ads and more. Join GolfWRX. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with existing members and access to certain forums. Join our community today and enter into a chance to win a free regular giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.




#21 bobfoster

bobfoster

    Best Sport on Earth. Ever.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,118 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 104921
  • Joined: 03/16/2010
  • Location:NYC + London + Mexico DF
GolfWRX Likes : 220

Posted 06 April 2012 - 04:53 AM

 rogolf, on 05 April 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

 bobfoster, on 05 April 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

 Sawgrass, on 05 April 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

One thing I find particularly appealing about your above post, Rogolf, is that it justifies the inconsistency between the two decisions I've been mulling over.  So let's go with that!

I think the essence of the question here is that he chose to use LCP. He may (in fact, probably could) have applied another rule. And the difficulty here (IMO) is that when one is playing local LCP rules on a course, there is nothing in the RoG that insists that the normal RoG have ascendency over winter rules (or vice versa) when the Venn Diagram overlaps (as it were).

When there is this much vaugeness ... I believe the intention of the golfer is actually the determining factor. I believe he legitimately could have dropped an entire club length ... but he chose to apply LCP (also a legitimate choice) ... but the local LCP rule was a grip length ... and he did not comply with the actual rule he chose.

When the ruling must be made by the Committee after the fact, they will consider the intention of the player but it is not the deciding factor.  Based on the facts of the event and the Rules, the Committee will assign Rules to the player's actions.  However, the Committee can never assign Rule 28 since the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
In this case, it could be either a breach of Rule 25-1 (AGC) or the LCP local Rule, either of which will result in the same penalty - loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play.

I think we're (kind of) saying the same thing. He legitimately selected the LCP rule, and then broke it. Penalty.

#22 mstrymxer

mstrymxer

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 293 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102835
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Tennessee
GolfWRX Likes : 27

Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:50 PM

while you have all consulted the rules and given very good answers you have all failed to address whether the vertical movement counts in the distance in which i can drop or LCP.....lol

#23 rogolf

rogolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 123050
  • Joined: 02/25/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 331

Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

The conclusion was that vertical distance does count in the measured distance for lift, clean and place.

#24 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,305 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:35 PM

 rogolf, on 13 April 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

The conclusion was that vertical distance does count in the measured distance for lift, clean and place.
Though it would not have prevented you from taking casual water relief if you had the presence of mind to drop instead of place.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors