31 replies to this topic

[TheCityGame]

Let's say you played a course with 18 par 4's. Every one of these is a straight hole, greens are typical, maybe guarded by traps. They like to move the tees around.

Day 1: You hit every fairway and you have a 9 iron into the green

Day 2: You hit every fairway and you have a 7 iron into the green

Day 3: You hit every fairway and you have a 5 iron into the green

What do you think you shoot, either in absolute terms or at least relative to yourself on each of those days?

I'm going to go with. . .3 over par on day 1, 7 over par on day 2, 12 over par on day 3. Maybe that's too drastic. I'm interested in hearing what other think about that.

In short, how many strokes are you losing by adding 20-30 yards to your approach?

[juststeve]

If a course has been rated by the USGA there will be course ratings for each set of tees on the score card.  That is a better answer to your question than you are likely to get here.

Steve

[SpinMill75]

Your scores are going to go up the farther you're out on the second shot.  Even PGA pros have a har time getting the ball close with a 5 iron to the pin.  Big difference between hitting 9 irons and 5 irons for your second shot.

[isaacbm]

let me put this a little differently to you:

If I drive it 290 and I hit my 5 iron 210 then you are asking me what I would shoot if I played a 9000 yard course where every hole is a  500 yard par  4?  

And for the driver 9 iron example: since I hit 9 iron 150, that would be like playing a course that has 18   440 yard par 4s which would be 7920 yards.

My quick answer is that I would quit the game...

Edited by isaacbm, 04 April 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[juststeve]

My home course is USGA rated.  

From the back tees the rating is 75.9/145 at 7372 yards.

From the first set of forward tees it is 73.5/140 at 6862 yards.

That would mean the USGA thinks 510 yards means 2.4 stroke harder and a difference of 5 in slope.  

That seems reasonable to me.

Steve

[TheCityGame]

isaacbm, on 04 April 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

let me put this a little differently to you:

If I drive it 290 and I hit my 5 iron 210 then you are asking me what I would shoot if I played a 9000 yard course where every hole is a  500 yard par  4?  

And for the driver 9 iron example: since I hit 9 iron 150, that would be like playing a course that has 18   440 yard par 4s which would be 7920 yards.

My quick answer is that I would quit the game...

Why isn't your quick answer what I actually asked. . .what do you think the difference would be between what you shot on those two courses?

Put it another way. . .for every par 4 where you can hit the fairway with your driver, what are you giving up scoring-wise by hitting your 3-wood?

[steveh1591]

Ill go +3
+6
+10

I'm a 5 handicap if that really matters

[cardoustie]

I would be 10 shots worse with 5 iron vs 9 iron is my best guess.   The slope calcs showing 3 shots are bunk IMO

Look at PGA tour stats for hole proximity from 140-150 vs 200-210 ... huge variations

I'd miss 80% of the greens with a 5i is my guess and only get up and down 45% of the time.  I would expect to hit 75% with the 9i

I think I would shoot, 74, 78, 84

For me my game is built around hitting lots of drivers and then some sort of wedge into greens.   Rarely more than a 7i anyways

As a erratic 3/4 capper I really notice how weak my 5/6 irons are vs +2's cappers etc

[isaacbm]

TheCityGame, on 04 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

isaacbm, on 04 April 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

let me put this a little differently to you:

If I drive it 290 and I hit my 5 iron 210 then you are asking me what I would shoot if I played a 9000 yard course where every hole is a  500 yard par  4?  

And for the driver 9 iron example: since I hit 9 iron 150, that would be like playing a course that has 18   440 yard par 4s which would be 7920 yards.

My quick answer is that I would quit the game...

Why isn't your quick answer what I actually asked. . .what do you think the difference would be between what you shot on those two courses?

Put it another way. . .for every par 4 where you can hit the fairway with your driver, what are you giving up scoring-wise by hitting your 3-wood?

Sorry to have disappointed you.  We were being hypothetical though....

As a plus handicap golfer, I would say that the difference would be a max of 1 -2 shots.

Most of the higher handicapers i play with would be closer to 5 or 6 shots.

The better the handicap, the less having more distance  matters.  That's why Luke Donald can play against Dustin Johnson.  As long as you can hit it at least 280, all that matters is accuracy in every part of the game and course management.


If I picked up 25 yards and started hitting it 315, I would say my stroke average  MIGHT go down 1 shot.  My misses would be huge if I hit it farther so I assume I would make more doubles than I do now.

[DaveLeeNC]

It was a long time ago when i did this analysis, but I once took all my years of golf data and determined that, on average for me, moving 10 yards closer to the green (for an approach shot) reduces my score (on average) by 0.1 strokes. I analyzed distances from 80 yards to 200 yards (IIRC - it was several years ago when I did this).

dave

[MadGolfer76]

Day 1: You hit every fairway and you have a 9 iron into the green

Chances are I would hit every green or close to all. Score around par as a conservative estimate.

Day 2: You hit every fairway and you have a 7 iron into the green

I expect to hit most of the greens, misses should be mild, so up and down on at least 3/4's. Maybe four over at worst.

Day 3: You hit every fairway and you have a 5 iron into the green

A weaker area of my game. Misses would be more inconsistent. I would hit at least half the greens and up and down around 2/3's (assuming I miss in the right places). Should score anywhere from 76-81, at worst.


**Not counting birdies

Edited by MadGolfer76, 04 April 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[TheCityGame]

DaveLeeNC, on 04 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

It was a long time ago when i did this analysis, but I once took all my years of golf data and determined that, on average for me, moving 10 yards closer to the green (for an approach shot) reduces my score (on average) by 0.1 strokes. I analyzed distances from 80 yards to 200 yards (IIRC - it was several years ago when I did this).

dave

Ah, that's pretty interesting. Thanks. That's what I was trying to get a feel for from other golfers.

That's sort of in line with my original guess. Maybe lose 3-4 strokes total losingn 20 yards, and 8-10 total losing 40 yard -- of course, that's on a hypothetical course with18 par 4's.

I've been working on trying to get a little more distance out of the driver this year and wondering how much that could help lower the handicap weighed against the additional variation it brings in. Obviously, I have to apply it to my own game, but sometimes it's hard to track your own game (you need a lot of reps and good record keeping).

[mark m]

Dave's analysis of his own scores are pretty close to the chart below from the USGA. Know that this is a way to make adjustments based on yardage alone and is not as good as a complete rating which considers all the hole elements/obstacles from the set tee markers. (But it can be very useful.)

http://www.usga.org/...Manual/Rule-05/

[poizster]

For 18 holes hitting a 9 iron approach versus a 5 iron approach into every green I would guess be about a 2-3 stroke difference. I remember in college our coach would have us play a course from 100, 150, and 200 yards. My scores from 150 and 200 were never more then a couple strokes apart.

[CosmosMpower]

With 9 iron + 7

With 7 iron +9

With 5 iron +12

I'm about a 9 HC.

Edited by CosmosMpower, 05 April 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[sanjaygolf]

Are we assuming there is no trouble, i.e. water or other hazard that would make your score blow up? Also, are we assuming the flag is in the middle and the distance is our exact 5/7/9 iron distance with no wind? If so then I'd say Even, +2, +4. To me one of the hardest parts of the game is picking what club to use based on external factors like wind. If u take that away and put the perfect club in my hand with no real big penalty for missing the green then I dont think I would do too bad.

[isaacbm]

Interesting in Tiger's interview yesterday how much it's apparent that he values distance...

He was a little off in one of his comments when he said that " everyone is at least 6'3" and absolutely kills it now."   7 of the top 14 players in the world are under 6 feet tall...

But he's right that almost everyone of the top 20 players in the world can get it out there pretty far...

I think at tour level since most of them are really straight, gaining more distance can only help.

for the average golfer that mishits driver so often, having a lot of extra distance might just mean wider misses and more doubles.  

It really is a tough debate for me.  I'm on both sides of the fence on this one.

[jjj912]

I collected some of my scores on a par 58 course and some of my scores on par 72 courses.  I made an educated guess at the yardages I played each time.  Then, I computed the difference between the average par 58 score and the average par 72 score and I computed the difference between the average par 58 yardage and the average par 72 yardage.  The difference in average yardages was 3025 yards.  Dividing the difference in scores by the difference in yardages, I calculated that yardage was worth 0.0083 strokes/yard.  Considering that the yardage difference between a 9 iron and a 5 iron is about 40 yards for me, that means that over 18 holes I could expect to shoot about 6 strokes worse if I had to use a 5 iron every time instead of a 9 iron.

Edited by jjj912, 05 April 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[dogsbe]

Oh I think I will put a different spin on the question.  

I was playing a practice round for an event next week.  On nearly all the par 4s, I would expect the vast majority of players will simply pull their drivers.  I hit my driver on only 4 holes, the big stroke index 1 & 2 and 2 of the par 5s.  I also hit two 3 woods and the rest were either a 4 iron or 5 wood.  So, my plan is to give up +30 yards on most of the holes against my competitors.  The reason why I am willing to do this is not because I am concerned about popping one in the woods, but to put my ball in perfect position to attack the green.   Position is everything except for the the longest par 4, which the architect is actually testing your distance.  

The point being, I would rather be hitting into a grean in the correct angle of attack with a 5 iron than trying to hit a 9 iron out of position.

[TheCityGame]

dogsbe, on 05 April 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Oh I think I will put a different spin on the question.  

I was playing a practice round for an event next week.  On nearly all the par 4s, I would expect the vast majority of players will simply pull their drivers.  I hit my driver on only 4 holes, the big stroke index 1 & 2 and 2 of the par 5s.  I also hit two 3 woods and the rest were either a 4 iron or 5 wood.  So, my plan is to give up +30 yards on most of the holes against my competitors.  The reason why I am willing to do this is not because I am concerned about popping one in the woods, but to put my ball in perfect position to attack the green.   Position is everything except for the the longest par 4, which the architect is actually testing your distance.  

The point being, I would rather be hitting into a grean in the correct angle of attack with a 5 iron than trying to hit a 9 iron out of position.

I'd be very interested in hearing what kind of hole is designed where you can get in position for a 5-iron that is going to put you in a better position to attack a pin than a 9 iron.



Sure, there are holes I lay back on because I want to take trouble out of play, but that's not what you're saying.

[dogsbe]

TheCityGame, on 05 April 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

dogsbe, on 05 April 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Oh I think I will put a different spin on the question.  

I was playing a practice round for an event next week.  On nearly all the par 4s, I would expect the vast majority of players will simply pull their drivers.  I hit my driver on only 4 holes, the big stroke index 1 & 2 and 2 of the par 5s.  I also hit two 3 woods and the rest were either a 4 iron or 5 wood.  So, my plan is to give up +30 yards on most of the holes against my competitors.  The reason why I am willing to do this is not because I am concerned about popping one in the woods, but to put my ball in perfect position to attack the green.   Position is everything except for the the longest par 4, which the architect is actually testing your distance.  

The point being, I would rather be hitting into a grean in the correct angle of attack with a 5 iron than trying to hit a 9 iron out of position.

I'd be very interested in hearing what kind of hole is designed where you can get in position for a 5-iron that is going to put you in a better position to attack a pin than a 9 iron.



Sure, there are holes I lay back on because I want to take trouble out of play, but that's not what you're saying.

You are right, I am not saying to stay out of a hazard, but saying to stay in position.   Did you ever play around where every hole was just a battle and every shot was annoyingly difficult to get to the green?  You just end up getting really frustrated because you find you don't have a good lie, your are blocked out, a very tight landing area into the green and so on.  What is happening is that you are being highly manipulated by the golf architect to play your ball into the wrong position and if you do this, you just end up with a big score, regardless how well you strike the ball.

In order to score well, you MUST get the angle of attack to the green right.  

Here is an example from a course that I played yesterday.

Here is a good example:  http://www.walsallgolfclub.co.uk/a_course/holes.php?hole=8

It is a 465 yard par 4.  

First off, the hole is long with a difficult drive as the left side of the tee is blocked out and there is a nasty little bunker right side.  With the shape of the fairway and position of the tee box, it is very much looking like the shot is blast one over the left side of the bunker.  If you manage to hit this fantastic shot, you are truely out of position.  Balls coming into the green from the right side will not hold the green and find thelves with a somewhat difficult chip or an easy bunker shot.  Anything from the right that does carry the green, will find a very difficult bunker and a double bogey is very realistic score.  

The correct position is on the left side around the before the 150 marker (on the planner).  From there, the green opens up and you don't have worry about carrying anything.  Also the slope on the green will help to stop any balls.   So regardless of distance, position is everything on this hole.

[isaacbm]

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

[jjj912]

isaacbm, on 06 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

He's saying something else.  What he's saying is that there are holes where hitting the tee shot as far as possible leaves you with a short, but difficult approach shot.  On these holes, it may be better to hit the ball a shorter distance off the tee and thereby leave yourself with a long, but easy approach shot.

One example of such a situation would be when you have a fairway that is level with the green at say 170 yd out but is below the green at 120 yd out.  You have to decide if you would rather hit a level shot from 170 yd or hit an uphill and potentially blind shot from 120 yards.  If you think the 170 yard is the easier one, then you would hit a short tee shot to position the ball in the right spot.  If you think the uphill shot is the easier one, then you hit the long tee shot.

[TheCityGame]

jjj912, on 06 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 06 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

He's saying something else.  What he's saying is that there are holes where hitting the tee shot as far as possible leaves you with a short, but difficult approach shot.  On these holes, it may be better to hit the ball a shorter distance off the tee and thereby leave yourself with a long, but easy approach shot.

One example of such a situation would be when you have a fairway that is level with the green at say 170 yd out but is below the green at 120 yd out.  You have to decide if you would rather hit a level shot from 170 yd or hit an uphill and potentially blind shot from 120 yards.  If you think the 170 yard is the easier one, then you would hit a short tee shot to position the ball in the right spot.  If you think the uphill shot is the easier one, then you hit the long tee shot.

That doesn't sound like he's talking about.

Look at the picture he included. He's saying that if you carry that fw bunker, you have a 9 iron that can't hold the green.

Well, first of all. . .I hope you're not hitting a 9 iron from 60 yards.  Second of all. . .I have NO IDEA what that green could be shaped like  where if you carry that fairway bunker, you can't hold the green with a  wedge, but apparently you CAN hold the green with a 5 iron from 150  yards. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I've never seen a hole like that in my life, and he's apparently playing a course with about 8 of them.

If he wants to claim that he's better off taking that bunker out of play, so he's going to tee off with an iron, that's a totally different thing.

[sonofagunn]

He's saying the left side of the fairway is more important than distance on that hole.

I think. But still, all else being equal, I'd rather hit a 9 iron from the left side of the fairway than a 5 iron.
Edit - I think I get it, if you hit a driver, it ends up on the right hand side of the fairway because it's a slight dogleg left and a tree blocks you from aiming your tee shot around the corner.

Edited by sonofagunn, 06 April 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[jjj912]

TheCityGame, on 06 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

jjj912, on 06 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 06 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

He's saying something else.  What he's saying is that there are holes where hitting the tee shot as far as possible leaves you with a short, but difficult approach shot.  On these holes, it may be better to hit the ball a shorter distance off the tee and thereby leave yourself with a long, but easy approach shot.

One example of such a situation would be when you have a fairway that is level with the green at say 170 yd out but is below the green at 120 yd out.  You have to decide if you would rather hit a level shot from 170 yd or hit an uphill and potentially blind shot from 120 yards.  If you think the 170 yard is the easier one, then you would hit a short tee shot to position the ball in the right spot.  If you think the uphill shot is the easier one, then you hit the long tee shot.

That doesn't sound like he's talking about.

Look at the picture he included. He's saying that if you carry that fw bunker, you have a 9 iron that can't hold the green.

Well, first of all. . .I hope you're not hitting a 9 iron from 60 yards.  Second of all. . .I have NO IDEA what that green could be shaped like  where if you carry that fairway bunker, you can't hold the green with a  wedge, but apparently you CAN hold the green with a 5 iron from 150  yards. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I've never seen a hole like that in my life, and he's apparently playing a course with about 8 of them.

If he wants to claim that he's better off taking that bunker out of play, so he's going to tee off with an iron, that's a totally different thing.

The question asked was about the idea of hitting longer or shorter approach shots in general, not about the specific example provided.  So my response was aimed at answering the broader question.  I was not trying to explain the specific example provided.

[dogsbe]

TheCityGame, on 06 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

jjj912, on 06 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 06 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

He's saying something else.  What he's saying is that there are holes where hitting the tee shot as far as possible leaves you with a short, but difficult approach shot.  On these holes, it may be better to hit the ball a shorter distance off the tee and thereby leave yourself with a long, but easy approach shot.

One example of such a situation would be when you have a fairway that is level with the green at say 170 yd out but is below the green at 120 yd out.  You have to decide if you would rather hit a level shot from 170 yd or hit an uphill and potentially blind shot from 120 yards.  If you think the 170 yard is the easier one, then you would hit a short tee shot to position the ball in the right spot.  If you think the uphill shot is the easier one, then you hit the long tee shot.

That doesn't sound like he's talking about.

Look at the picture he included. He's saying that if you carry that fw bunker, you have a 9 iron that can't hold the green.

Well, first of all. . .I hope you're not hitting a 9 iron from 60 yards.  Second of all. . .I have NO IDEA what that green could be shaped like  where if you carry that fairway bunker, you can't hold the green with a  wedge, but apparently you CAN hold the green with a 5 iron from 150  yards. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I've never seen a hole like that in my life, and he's apparently playing a course with about 8 of them.

If he wants to claim that he's better off taking that bunker out of play, so he's going to tee off with an iron, that's a totally different thing.

The shape of the green is narrow with a big slope going right to left.  So, if you hit anything over the right hand bunkers, it will be hitting a big downwards slope and roll of the green.  However, if you get way to the left side, you are hitting into a big uphill slope, which catches everything.  

I picked this example because the architect attempts to fool golfers into thinking this is a distance hole by its length, position of the tee box and right hand bunker.  It visually looks like the shot is to try to carry this bunker to cut off some distance.  However, if you do it, you are totally out of position and you can't hold the green with any club.  This is an extreme example, according to Robert Trent Jr, architect, position is far more important than distance on the vast majority of holes.  

There are a few holes that distance is more important than position.  Normally, these are the very long par 4, e.g. 470 yards, uphill and into the wind.  On these holes, I give my driver the biggest hit and if I spray it, it really doesn't matter because I cant reach the green in two.  So, I am happy to chip out provided that 9 out of 10 I can advance the ball.  Beyond on that, I firmly believe it is far better to sacrific 30 yards to hit at an nice open and receptive green without any serious hazards than to bring hazards into play.  The percentage shot is playing for position and this would lead to consistently lower scores.

[dogsbe]

sonofagunn, on 06 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

He's saying the left side of the fairway is more important than distance on that hole.

I think. But still, all else being equal, I'd rather hit a 9 iron from the left side of the fairway than a 5 iron.
Edit - I think I get it, if you hit a driver, it ends up on the right hand side of the fairway because it's a slight dogleg left and a tree blocks you from aiming your tee shot around the corner.

Of course, all things being equal a 9 iron is the weapon of choice.  

Normally, the ideal angle of attack is cuts across the fairway.  If I had a guess, there is roughly 30-40 yards on this line where it is safe, e.g. fairway.  on any hole.  The first task is to identify the line. Look at how you can get to its begining, e.g. iron off the tee.  Once you have a solution to this, then you look to improve it, while assessing the risk for doing so.  

You should quickly find that your driver stays in your bag a lot more.

[dogsbe]

jjj912, on 06 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

isaacbm, on 06 April 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Dogsbe

I'm sorry but I really don't understand your side of this debate...  are you saying that you would rather hit a 5 iron into a green all things being equal?  Of course there are times when hitting it to 200 off the tee to avoid trouble is a better idea but are you saying something else?  For example, is there ever a time when a par 3 approach is easier from 200 than from 150?  

I'm just not quite understanding your argument...

He's saying something else.  What he's saying is that there are holes where hitting the tee shot as far as possible leaves you with a short, but difficult approach shot.  On these holes, it may be better to hit the ball a shorter distance off the tee and thereby leave yourself with a long, but easy approach shot.

One example of such a situation would be when you have a fairway that is level with the green at say 170 yd out but is below the green at 120 yd out.  You have to decide if you would rather hit a level shot from 170 yd or hit an uphill and potentially blind shot from 120 yards.  If you think the 170 yard is the easier one, then you would hit a short tee shot to position the ball in the right spot.  If you think the uphill shot is the easier one, then you hit the long tee shot.

Kind of but not exactly.   What I am saying is that is an ideal angle of attack, which is the position line.  This starts from some point on the green and runs towards the tee. Normally, it starts at the pin, but it is really should be the ideal position for you to make your first putt to give yourself the best chance for birdie.  From there, you assess all the hazards, the receptiveness of the green, slope and wind and so on.   Ultimately what you are looking for is the safest route from the fairway to that spot that gives you the best chance to get there.  So, you draw a line back to fairway until it is not longer safe, e.g. deep rough, tees and so on.  Once you have that line, you look from the tee and look how you can get ball onto that line.  It might only take an iron to get on the that line, but then you try to find away to improve on distance.  You have to balance the risk and reward.

[bepo]

Here's a chart for the PGA tour average strokes gained.  Going with a 140 yard 9 iron and a 200 yard 5 iron the difference would be 5.04 strokes from the fairway.  For amateurs these number will be higher



source: http://www.columbia....ie_20110408.pdf