14 replies to this topic

[oldschoolrocker]

I broke out the low tech stuff today and played a round from the tees measuring around 6400-6500 Yds.  The only modern club was a new Louisville Persimmon driver.  A handcrafted 4 wood from the 50's,  and a Stan Thompson Ginty 7 wood.  All with TT lite steel shaft in R flex.  Irons, an older set of Titlest blades,TTDG S300,  2 older Titlest wedges, and a Bulleye, non flange, with fluted shaft for the flatstick.  
  The irons are my normal gamers when I feel on point, but I have been playing a Modern driver/3 wood/hybrid with shaft & head setup by a local pro from range sessions with launch monitor.  And a modern putter after testing different styles/models on The SAM with the same pro.
  I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns.  Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season.  I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
  My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.
  Anyway, I was wondering what others think about their games with the older clubs.  If you feel that you actually play a better game using them?
  Thank you in advance for your response.

  Kindest regards,

  DRS

[Blade Junkie]

oldschoolrocker, on 22 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns.  Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season.  I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
  My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.

My experience is the same, to the extent that all my metal woods are now consigned to my odd clubs bag.

I am using two sets right now: 1. Hickory 2. Classic

Tad Moore Star OA Hickories (8 irons plus 3 woods) and two hickory putters (a 1920s Charles L Millar blade for distance, and a reproduction wooden putter similar to a Louisville 'Alex Smith' for 8 foot and less).

Ben Hogan Apex IIs 2-SW, Paul Gibson Hand Made driver, Joe Powell Smoker, Hogan Apex 5-Wood, and either a Palm Springs 7 putter (like a flanged Bullseye) or a Ping Anser.


I've had 9 holes on both sides of my home course in less than 40 with both of those sets, have won a couple of club stablefords with the Classic set, and have knocked 6 shots off my handicap since I kicked the Metals into touch. I placed 5th out of 33 last week with my Hickories.  I agree 100% with your son's comments about tempo.

I am shorter off the tee, but way more accurate. The persimmon fairway woods are a vast improvement on metal, even vs hybrids, and both straighter and longer. I can't really comment on blades as that is what I use anyway. But for sure I seem to score better with the Apex IIs or Star OAs than I ever did with my MP33s.

I love playing these old-school clubs, and really can't see why I would ever change back now.

[teespoon]

oldschoolrocker, on 22 March 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

I broke out the low tech stuff today and played a round from the tees measuring around 6400-6500 Yds.  The only modern club was a new Louisville Persimmon driver.  A handcrafted 4 wood from the 50's,  and a Stan Thompson Ginty 7 wood.  All with TT lite steel shaft in R flex.  Irons, an older set of Titlest blades,TTDG S300,  2 older Titlest wedges, and a Bulleye, non flange, with fluted shaft for the flatstick.  
  The irons are my normal gamers when I feel on point, but I have been playing a Modern driver/3 wood/hybrid with shaft & head setup by a local pro from range sessions with launch monitor.  And a modern putter after testing different styles/models on The SAM with the same pro.
  I was floored, to say the least, that my total scoring was actually better with the classic setup than with the Moderns.  Now, I break out the old stuff from time to time, but after today I am seriously considering "gaming" them for the rest of the season.  I found no loss of distance, Percentage of fairways hit increased and with that GIR on the higher end of my envelope as well.
  My oldest son commited that I always play better with the Persimmons, that my tempo is super sweet with them and that translates to better tempo on the rest of my shots.
  Anyway, I was wondering what others think about their games with the older clubs.  If you feel that you actually play a better game using them?
  Thank you in advance for your response.

  Kindest regards,

  DRS

     Tried this today.  Old Mac Driver and 3W with MacGregor MTR2 iron set and John Letters Golden Goose putter.  Played a new Pro V1 and scored just as well as with more modern stuff.  Clubs liked the new ball.  Enjoyed a 9 at 3 over  par.  Will do it again!

teespoon

[golfbum9]

Just goes to show that newer isn't always better... ball excluded of course.

[oldschoolrocker]

Since starting this thread, I have been looking for some even more, "classic" blades.  A couple of weeks I had an almost obsessive desire to go to a local second-hand store in the area.  Couldn't shake it, so I drove over, fully expecting it to be a wasted trip, but, what a suprise!!!  In the old club bin, had to rumage though, not in order, I found 2-8 iron makeup of what I am to believe( due to some wonderful reseach shared by other members on here) mid '60s Pre-Titlest Contentials in what I would rate 7-8 out of 10 condition.  Also found a vintage Mac Silver Scot forged 9i that I am using until I can locate something more akin to the Contentials.
  Find myself head scratching....clean them up, play with them as is, or, modernize the shafts and grips, which would increase the playability, but even as my non-golfing wife knows would take away from the actual intent of playing with a classical set.
  Seeking some advice here...the heads are in great shape for the age, but the grips and shafts could use an upgrade.

[Johnny Hack]

As some of you know if you see my posts in "What Golf Stuff did you buy today" I am somewhat of a "Classic Club Ho" and have been for many years.
While I have been employed in one form or another in the Golf industry for over 30 years and have seen the progression of club design and watched head sizes and shapes change, the material that heads and shafts are made out of, as well as golf ball design and materials (which has meant more consistancy and distance) has also been a big change as well. I am sure that it has benefited the average Golfer.

That being said I have decided that with the start of 2013 I will be comparing how much the "Old Technology" affects my handicap by gaming both "The Classics" (persimmon and pre 1990 forged blades) and my modern clubs, and tracking by using the USGA handicap formula (score-rating x 113 / slope and with multiple rounds of at least 5 x .96 for my adjusted index) and keeping 2 handicaps (myself) for comparison. I will keep a running log to show the difference as it progresses.

I thought that it would be an interesting comparrison for all those out there that wonder how much the new technology really helps non-professional golfers.

My Modern set is shown in my signature

My "Classic" set will consist of the following:
John Ofer Persimmon Driver - stiff steel shaft
Wilson Staff Tour Persimmon 4 wood - stiff steel shaft
2-PW Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blades (vintage late 70's/early 80's) - stiff steel shafts
Sand Wedge - Original Cleveland 588 (first year model)
Putter - Wilson 8813 1970's vintage (belonged to one of my best friends who passed away)
My ball will be Wilson Duo

I am doing this for my own enjoyment/entertainment as well as for any who are interested in playing classics but may be worried about how it will affect their game. I for one dont think it will be to radical of a diffence other than the distance difference in Classic vs Modern I feel it will be fairly close with all said and done.

While I agree that it may affect lower handicap players less than higher, I think that over the past 15 years the average players handicap has only improved by about 2 strokes due to modern equipment and ball.

The average handicap of all golfers -- men, women and children -- has decreased consistently for the past 15 years. The average handicap today is two strokes better than it was in the early 1990s, according to research provided to Golf Digest by the USGA's Golf Handicap & Information Network (GHIN).
Prior to that time everyone was using Wooden Woods and Forged Irons so I dont think it really changed much before. And bear in mind that most golfers (close to 80%), dont keep handicaps and are probably in the 15-25 handicap range.


Stats from the USGA. About 5 million golfers have a GHIN handicap which is only around 20% of all golfers.





Compared to the courses that I grew up playing, I would say that course design has definetly changed compared to the courses that were designed lets say 30 or more years ago as evidenced by the constant reworking (lenghtening and green redesigns ) that we see happening to the "Old Standard Greats" which the PGA Tour still competes on, but I feel that is due to the increased length of the modern professional golfer, as well as the modern equipment and golf ball. No one wants to tune into a televised tournament and watch the (mass of) pros of today shooting ridiculously low numbers, thus rendering those great designs of yesterday completely obsolete.

Another reason that design has changed is also for aesthetic reasons. Any of you that grew up on "Old Local Muni's" know that they were built with the then "masses" in mind, and even though the prices have increased somewhat on those Grand Old Muni's, the cost of designing, building, and maintaining the newer corses of the last 30 or less years has skyrocketed, and to help jusify the increased green fees, the look as well as the overall perceived value has required fancier facilities, such as Clubhouses, Cart Barns, Course Signage, Scorecards, Restraunts, Course Maintenance Equipment, and many other amenities that were just not required on the Muni's of yesterdays.

I feel that without the new "Super High Moment of Inertia Tee Bombers" (Drivers) that are being mass produced today, and the vastly improved putting surfaces as compared to say 30 years ago, that the majority of recreational golfers would really not be lowering their handicaps as much as the USGA has reported because they would not be hitting as many fairways as they do now. Also, I grew up playing on Poa Anna putting surfaces which greatly changed throughout the days play. With all the new grasses that are available, course conditions today remain more the same from morning till evening, other than the early morning dew.

As far as the "Modern Courses" being too difficult for the average player, I personally feel that far too many of todays "Recreational Player" feel an entitlement to "See The Whole Course Because I payed My Money to Play" and (most of their egos) are causing them to write checks that their playing ability cant cash!!!!

I am a 57 year old man now (7500 yard Tournament Tees are almost always out of the question for me) and while I play to a low single digit handicap, I like to play from the Men Championship Tees (Blue) some of the time, I also play from the Mens Regular Tees (White) more than 60% of my rounds, as I am secure in my "Manhood" and feel that I prove more playing from the proper tees for my driving distance ability (consistent 250-260 yards) and also increase the enjoyment of the time I spend out on the course.

11/6/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61


11/9/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51


11/13/12 Modern score - rating x113 / slope Blue tees 6638 yards
78 - 72.0 x 113 / 135 = 5.02


11/19/12 Classics Score - rating x 113 / slope White Tees 6162 yards
78 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.73


Cypresswood Golf Club Cypress Course

11/16/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6168 yards
77 - 70.3 x 113 / 120 = 6.31

So using step 6 of the USGA Handicap System I now have 5 "Classics" scores posted and I am to take the lowest which would be 4.61 and multiply it times .96

4.61 x .96 = 4.4 would be my index with 5 scores recorded.

Edited by Johnny Hack, 20 November 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[golfbum9]

Great post Jonny! Couldn't agree more and I for one will be interested in your findings/ results.

Play well!

[Johnny Hack]

Update to scores

Cypresswood Traditions Course

11/26/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White Tees 6162 yards
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51

11/20/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
78 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 7.32


11/6/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61


11/9/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6162 yards
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51


11/19/12 Classics Score - rating x 113 / slope White Tees 6162 yards
78 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.73


Cypresswood Golf Club Cypress Course

11/16/12 Classics score - rating x 113 / slope White tees 6168 yards
77 - 70.3 x 113 / 120 = 6.31

So using step 6 of the USGA Handicap System I now have 6 "Classics" scores posted and I am to take the lowest which would be 4.61 and multiply it times .96

4.61 x .96 = 4.4 would be my index with 6 scores recorded

with 6 scores recorded my index is still 4.4 using USGA Handicap System. I will be playing tomorrow and will have 7 scores so I will take my 2 lowest index scores added together then divide by 2 then times .96  Stay tuned for my update

Edited by Johnny Hack, 26 November 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Johnny Hack]

Classics Scores

11/27/12  
77 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 =  6.42

11/26/12
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51

11/20/12
78 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 7.32

11/19/12
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51

11/16/12
77 - 70.3 x 113 / 120 = 6.31

11/9/12
76 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 5.51

11/6/12
75 - 69.9 x 113 / 125 = 4.61

With 7 scores in I take the 2 lowest which are 4.61 + 5.51 = 10.12 and divide by 2 = 5.06 and multiply by .96 which comes out to 4.86 so my index would round up to 4.9 for the seven scores.
After a month of using my Classics we thus see that my Handicap Index difference between my modern clubs 4.3 and my classic clubs 4.9 is about a half a stroke.
While I will admit that higher handicappers will probably have a higher differential, I dont feel that lower handicappers are affected nearly as much, and I will reason that it is probably due to better ball striking abilities of lower handicappers versus those of higher handicappers.

The jist in this whole thing is that I think that we should all embrace the "Game as it was" before the high tech boom, and play some rounds with the classics, and not worry that it will be a negative experience, but more that it will be a joy to go back to our youth and rekindle some fond memories we had in a much less complicted era.

[NRJyzr]

A couple times over the last several years, in the middle of summer, I've switched my bag to playing persimmons exclusively, each time for a minimum of two months.  I'd already been playing classic blades such as Vibration Matched Golden Rams, and putters like the Cleveland Designed By, so there were no changes to the bag there to "go classic."

Each time I did this, I watched my scores drop.  The most interesting of these was back in 2008.  I started the season an 11.x index and stayed there into mid July.  Around that time, I decided I would play Golden Ram persimmons, and did so into October.  My index dropped 3 strokes, finishing that year at 8.2

I may not be a great test case, since my biggest issue might be my tee game.  I can hit some serious whiskey-tango-foxtrot tee shots from time to time, sometimes coming out of nowhere in an otherwise good round.  The persimmons had me keeping the ball in play off the tee, which was probably the biggest reason for the improvement mentioned above.

I still occasionally bring out the persimmons, but haven't done so for any length of time for a couple years.  Doesn't really affect my scores.

[Johnny Hack]

NRJyzr,
Glad to  hear that you and others here are embracing playing the "Classics" as I am. I have found the same as you that scoring is not affected much if any by playing your "Classics" bag. The added bonus for me is gathering the quarters from my playing partners after our rounds, and seeing them shaking their heads and mumbling to themselves after paying me off! I will be playing them today and have been playing about 60-70% of my rounds with them over the last several months, and dont see that ratio changing anytime soon.

Fairways and Greens
Johnny Hack

[duggap]

Hello to everyone.  New guy here.  But in response to your original post, let me tell you what is in my bag right now.  I have a one of a kind old persimmon driver.  Originally made in 1939, but I had the toe cut down.  I carry a Tommy Armour 943 three wood and an MO5 five wood.  Naturally all persimmon.  My irons are wilson staff and are thirty years old.  I have the one iron thru the wedge.   My sand wedge is an early 1960s black dot wilson dynapower.  Exactly like the one Tom Watson used to hole out in a major to beat Nichalus.  My putter is a wilson designed by Arnold Palmer.  It is the original.  I quit playing (for health reasons) twenty five years ago.  I have about 15 complete set of old McGregor permisson clubs, along with over a hundred putters and about twenty old classic wedges.  Someone told me they use metal woods today.  (LOL).  Just can't believe it.

[teevons]

duggap, on 08 December 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Hello to everyone.  New guy here.  But in response to your original post, let me tell you what is in my bag right now.  I have a one of a kind old persimmon driver.  Originally made in 1939, but I had the toe cut down.  I carry a Tommy Armour 943 three wood and an MO5 five wood.  Naturally all persimmon.  My irons are wilson staff and are thirty years old.  I have the one iron thru the wedge.   My sand wedge is an early 1960s black dot wilson dynapower.  Exactly like the one Tom Watson used to hole out in a major to beat Nichalus.  My putter is a wilson designed by Arnold Palmer.  It is the original.  I quit playing (for health reasons) twenty five years ago.  I have about 15 complete set of old McGregor permisson clubs, along with over a hundred putters and about twenty old classic wedges.  Someone told me they use metal woods today.  (LOL).  Just can't believe it.

Welcome to  the forum!! Lets see some pictures of your Macgregor sets of persimmons??

Edited by teevons, 13 December 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Johnny Hack]

Just another update on my ongoing "Playing Classics vs Modern"

Since my last post in November I have played another 15 or so rounds with my "Classics" and as I have stated before, there doesnt seem to be much of a scoring difference between my Classics and my Moderns. My latest round today was a 77 with a double bogey on the front, 40/37. I have to say that other than the distance difference betwen the 2, the end results are the same no matter which set I play. Handicap differential is staying at about .5 index difference between Classics and Moderns but for some reason, I just garner more pleasure when I play my Classics. Just something about a purely struck old forged blade or Persimmon that a Modern Ti Driver or cavity back cant match.

By the way I have been using the Wilson Duo and it performs well and feel great. I have seen posts about problems people are having with them splitting, but to date that is something that I have not encountered.

Edited by Johnny Hack, 08 February 2013 - 11:52 PM.

[oldschoolrocker]

Thank you all for responding to the post.  I have enjoyed the responses.  A plus one on the Wilson Duo.  Added benefits, a great cold weather ball and you can't beat the $$.  Oh, and it now is available in high Viz yellow.  If you haven't tried the high viz yellow balls, do yourself a favor and do so.  From my professional standpoint in deep depth underwater video, the color does stand out.