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How much lead tape should I add...????


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#1 MG 1977

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:47 PM

I picked up a Ping i20 driver and love it, however I hate hitting the ball left and it seems to be square face at best maybe even a little closed. I want to add some lead tape to the toe end as it will help stop the ball going left and will also increase the head weight which is a good as it will help me feel the head during the swing. The lead tape I have comes in 3 gram strips. Should I add one or two strips to the club? Is 6 grams too much of an increase in head weight?


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#2 Thrillhouse

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:30 PM

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while adding lead tape to the toe may allow you to feel the toe more and allow you to feel as though you cant turn the face over as easily you can't add enough weight to the club with lead tape to change the weighting characteristics of the club.

http://golf.about.co.../f/leadtape.htm

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#3 minhjn

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:17 AM

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 March 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while adding lead tape to the toe may allow you to feel the toe more and allow you to feel as though you cant turn the face over as easily you can't add enough weight to the club with lead tape to change the weighting characteristics of the club.

http://golf.about.co.../f/leadtape.htm

i have to kind of disagree.  why can't lead tape placed in a spot, say the toe, not affect ball flight, but the taylormade moveable weights, say adding a heavier weight to the toe will change the ball flight

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#4 Thrillhouse

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:36 AM

View Postminhjn, on 20 March 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 March 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while adding lead tape to the toe may allow you to feel the toe more and allow you to feel as though you cant turn the face over as easily you can't add enough weight to the club with lead tape to change the weighting characteristics of the club.

http://golf.about.co.../f/leadtape.htm

i have to kind of disagree.  why can't lead tape placed in a spot, say the toe, not affect ball flight, but the taylormade moveable weights, say adding a heavier weight to the toe will change the ball flight

I guess my question to you is did the moveable weights in the taylormade r7 line of clubs really change your ballflight when you put them in the extreme settings? My ballflight didn't change with those clubs when I did that, I always thought it was marketing.

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#5 bte2

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:55 AM

Thrillhouse is correct. In theory the lead tape will affect ball flight depending on where it is positioned but, it would require way too much lead tape as ever 2 g added to a head will add about 1 swing weight.
Lead tape is mainly used to affect swing weight. It is also used to affect moi.

I could not find it on the internet, but I read an article awhile back that someone over at smtgolf had written on this exact same issue.

With that said, I still position lead tape when I use it, mainly for a psychological effect. :)

Your best bet is to find a head that is slightly open and/or a stiffer shaft.
You might want to try using a bigger grip and more build up tape under your lower hand. I think bubba watson and many other tour players use bigger grips and more build up the bottom of their grip to help take the hands out of the shot.


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#6 goondawg

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:37 AM

View PostThrillhouse, on 19 March 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while adding lead tape to the toe may allow you to feel the toe more and allow you to feel as though you cant turn the face over as easily you can't add enough weight to the club with lead tape to change the weighting characteristics of the club.

http://golf.about.co.../f/leadtape.htm


Correct

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#7 nitram

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:44 AM

Adding weight is more for "feel" than anything else.
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#8 TomWishon

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:16 AM

View Postminhjn, on 20 March 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:


i have to kind of disagree.  why can't lead tape placed in a spot, say the toe, not affect ball flight, but the taylormade moveable weights, say adding a heavier weight to the toe will change the ball flight

I'll be happy to answer that because I have a lot of experience in this area of clubhead design.  

The way that adding weight to the heel or the toe side of a head prompts a movement of the flight of the ball is by changing the center of gravity (CG) of the head enough so that an on center hit actually makes contact to one side or the other of the CG, which in turn then creates some horizontal gear effect on the shot.  

Let's take the thread originator's situation in which he wants to reduce a draw by adding weight to the toe end of the head. The idea is if you add enough weight to the toe end of the clubhead, the CG position moves off the center of the face and toward the toe where weight is being added.  Thus the idea is when you hit the ball on center, that impact point is now on the heel side of the changed CG position.  This impact will then cause the head to rotate counter clockwise (when looking down on the head) which in turn causes the spin axis to tilt slightly to the right, which offsets a hook shot tendency.

The problem is that this effect requires the amount of weight added to the toe end of the head to be enough to move the CG substantially off the center of the face and toward the toe.   I know this from having extensively tested this on wood head designs a number of times in my career.  if you add 6 grams to the toe as the golfer is proposing, that 6g addition will move the CG on average around 1 to 1.25mm toward the toe (the actual movement depends on how far away from the CG the weight is added).  

That amount of CG movement is not even close to being enough to cause a gear effect rotation of the head when you hit the ball on the center of the face.  The draw bias or fade bias effect, which is what this is called, does not begin to happen to the point of causing a VISUAL change in the flight of the ball until the weight movement out on the end of the head gets to be in the area of 25 grams of weight.  

Again, I know this because of my experience in testing this with actual design prototypes supported by both human and robot hit testing, so I can quite assure you this is true.  Hence an addition of just 6g to the toe of this clubhead is not going to have any visible effect on the flight of the ball.  However, what it will do (which actually might help him when you think about it) is the fact that if he adds 6g to the head, the swingweight will increase by 3 swt points.  Depending on his swing aggressiveness and tempo, that might be enough of a swt increase that he now feels the heavier headweight and struggles to close the face as much in his swing, which could possibly reduce his tendency to pull or draw the ball !!  But that effect, if it happens, could be done by putting the weight anywhere on the head.    

TOM

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#9 bte2

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:39 PM

Well, that settles it because Tom is a golf genius and this is right in his area of expertise.

So... does this mean the marketing of the Taylor Made weighting system with ball flight is mainly hype besides the change in swing weight? Or is there an added benefit with having the weight deeper in the head?

Edited by bte2, 20 March 2012 - 01:39 PM.


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#10 TomWishon

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

View Postbte2, on 20 March 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:


So... does this mean the marketing of the Taylor Made weighting system with ball flight is mainly hype besides the change in swing weight? Or is there an added benefit with having the weight deeper in the head?


Let's talk about the effect of moving weight around the head into TWO SEPARATE factors of heel/toe weight movement and then face to back weight movement because their functions and effects are completely different from each other.  

HEEL TO TOE WEIGHT MOVEMENT

ANY clubhead that is made with a weight screw designed to move from heel to toe for draw or fade bias intent will not show a distinctly VISIBLE change in draw or fade tendency FOR THE MAJORITY OF GOLFERS until the amount of weight eligible to be moved reaches at least 25 grams.   If such heel to toe movable weight screws could allow more weight movement than 25g, the amount of draw or fade bias change becomes more and more visible.  

At a heel/toe weight movement of more than 40 grams, at this point the weight will have moved the center of gravity so much toward the weight movement that you now begin to lose ball speed from an ON CENTER impact.  This is no BS.  I have designed several draw bias driver heads in my career so it is through this work that I have learned these facts.  My last toe to heel movable weight driver head done in 2006 proved that moving TOO MUCH weight to the heel or toe, meaning more than 40g, would move the CG enough that an on center hit would lose ball speed and distance.  

One more qualifier here though. . . . The more consistent the ball striking capability of the player, the more they can notice the effect of a heel to toe draw/fade bias weight movement.  But even with tour player skills in ball striking, draw/fade bias barely becomes noticeable at 20 grams of heel to toe movement.  For players who are good but not great ball strikers, let's generalize and say a 4 to 8 hdcp player, they just begin to see a slight but real draw/fade bias ball flight movement at 25 grams.  

Bottom line on this is that if you fade/slice or draw/hook the ball more than 10 yds and you want visible improvement on reducing that curving ball flight, change the FACE ANGLE of the wood and don't even mess with this toe to heel weight movement.   Face angle represents a direct 1 to 1 degree correction of the swing path/face delivery mistake that causes the slice or hook.  Heel to toe weight movement works by moving the center of gravity in relation to where you hit the ball on the face so its intentional horizontal gear effect on ball flight shape is so far less than what a face angle change of even 1.5 degs can be.

If you are a really consistent ball striker and you just want to reduce a little "nagging fade or nagging draw", that is where the heel to toe weight movement of 25g and more can step in to help.  But if you are a slicer, change the face angle to get better accuracy improvement results.

FACE TO BACK WEIGHT MOVEMENT

Moving weight from close behind the face to far back of the face is intended to lower or increase the launch angle, spin and trajectory of the shot.  However, there is a BIG difference in how face to back weight movement works for trajectory/spin change vs. how the toe to heel weight movement works to encourage a slight draw/fade bias in the shot.  

However, Aa face to back weight movement in a head only works to change trajectory and spin FOR GOLFERS WHO HAVE A LATER TO VERY LATE RELEASE.  This is because the face to back weight movement affects shot height and spin by creating either more or less forward bending on the shaft as it comes to impact.  The more the shaft bends forward coming to impact, the higher will be the dynamic loft on the clubhead and from that, the higher the trajectory and spin on the shot.  The less the shaft bends forward coming to impact, the lower will be the dynamic  loft on the clubhead and from that, the lower the trajectory and spin  on the shot.  

For a late release player, the closer the center of gravity of the head is to the face (actually to the ground line plane of the centerline of the shaft) the less the shaft will bend forward coming to impact.  So weight more forward means a little lower trajectory and lower spin.  And conversely, for the late release player,  the farther back the center of gravity of the head is to the face the more the  shaft could bend forward coming to impact.  So weight more rearward means a little higher trajectory and higher spin.

The effect of face to back weight movement on trajectory and spin can be more dramatic than a heel to toe weight movement effect on draw or fade ball flight shape.  This is because by moving the head's mass from front to back, in a 460cc driver the CG can be made to move as much as 15mm or more from face to back in the head.  For heel to toe weight movement, if you move the CG more than 4mm off the center of the face, you now start to decrease ball speed from impact having missed being in alignment with the CG.  

Hope this helps,

TOM


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#11 bte2

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:11 PM

Thanks Tom. Great information!
I think your two posts should be permanently pinned somewhere!

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#12 mountain pro

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:30 PM

Tom is so good. Thanks for the great info

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#13 MG 1977

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:13 PM

Thanks for the repliese fella's (especially Tom). I'm hitting the driver very well but the face is slightly closed which just doesn't suit my eye. However I like the feel and performance of it that much that I'm just gonna stick with it until I can find a head which looks a little open at address.

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#14 marrigo

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

I'm having a tough time following some of this.

I agree with the concept that just adding a few grams of tape won't affect ball flight to any significant degree.

First thing I'm not clear on is the movable weight aspect.  I got the impression that it's being suggested that you'd have to have 25g movable weights in order to see any affect (i.e. move a 25g from heel to toe).  Seems like moving weights is not the same as adding weight since you're taking weight away from one side of the head and adding it to the opposite end thus magnifying the effect per gram moved compared to adding weight alone. So you should be able to move less weight with the same affect as adding weight alone, plus you're not messing with swing weight.

Next, I thought part of how this works is related to the ability to square the face (gear effect around the shaft).    Enough weight towards the toe makes it harder to square the face, weight on the heel makes it easier.

Also not entirely understanding the vertical CG concept.  It seems like it's being suggested that effective loft is the only factor influencing launch angle?  For example, a higher, more forward CG equals less dynamic loft and thus less effective loft at impact. Don't doubt that it will affect dynamic loft, but it seems like the CG itself will also influence ball flight.  So if dynamic loft is the only thing influencing launch then  if i take every 9.5* driver out today, shaft them with a steel rod that won't bend and test them in a Iron Byron swing machine they'd all launch at the same angle and with the same spin rates? I'm thinking they wouldn't and in fact would launch at different angles, but the range from highest to lowest would be smaller than if they were shafted with normal shafts.

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#15 RyanGolfFreak

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:40 PM

Nothing at all wrong with this.  just remember 2 grams added to the head increases the swingweight by 1 point., so 2 strips of your lead tape = 3 swingweights.  This will definatly help the the toe from turning over, but you must realize it will make the shaft a little softer!!! If you are htting the ball left due to a weak shaft and not a closed face, then you have made the wrong move, but only trying it will tell.  You can always counterbalance the heavier head with a heavier grip to get the swingsweight back to where you had it before as the toal weight obviously goes up.  Golf Pride New Decade grips are pretty heavy, just remember every 5 grams added to the grip will decrease the swingweight by 1 point.  

Hope this helps


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#16 Kingcat990

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 10:07 PM

Some great info. Worth bumping to the top for those who are considering adding lead tape. Thanks for the in-depth replies. Helps us out when google fails us
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#17 dunn

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 11:33 PM

You would have to add too much for it to have any effect....and that would increase SW significantly....not worth it...

Pick up g25....it sits more square

I did for this very same reason

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#18 Peanut191

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:15 PM

I have been playing around with many different head and shaft configurations for a long time.  I don't fully understand everything Tom is saying, but it does make sense.

Here are my findings for 2 different clubs(hotmelt instead of lead tape):

First generation X hot's on both of these:

1. X hot 4 wood non-pro with with Project X 6.5(pro version of the shaft) playing at 43.5, D1.5.  (I usually play stiff flex, but the 6.5 feels more like a strong stiff flex than a pure X stiff flex)  The launch angle is high with lowish spin, swing speed of 92-98 mph on the simulator.  Carry is 210 to 220 with this one and 240-250 total distance. Swingweight is D1(too light for what I like) and total distance is 235-240.

2. Xhot 4 wood non-pro with Fubuki Alpha 70X, playing at 42.75, Tour Issue, have not measured, but feels like D3.(TC serial and I can see the plug on the bottom of the head).  This one launches quite lower and is definitely more fade biased than the non TC above.  It launches a little higher than the 15 degree non pro, but with a much more muted feel.  The ballflight is flatter than the one above and the 15 degree 3 wood of the first x hot(I have hit the first x hot 3 wood with the rombax 80B proto, seems like the swingweight is very light).  Carry with this one is 205-210 with 245-255 total distance.

Granted, I don't know the exact placement of the hotmelt on the tour issue, but this one is very much less hook prone than #1 above.

Hope this helps, (the face angles are the same with both clubs above) but from my experience, the hotmelted club causes lower launch and spin, while causing the ball to go noticeably more right.)

I feel more comfortable with the tour issue version(probably because the shorter length and heavier head)

Edited by Peanut191, 20 September 2014 - 01:22 PM.

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#19 PuttForDough100

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:21 AM

View PostTomWishon, on 21 March 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

View Postbte2, on 20 March 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

So... does this mean the marketing of the Taylor Made weighting system with ball flight is mainly hype besides the change in swing weight? Or is there an added benefit with having the weight deeper in the head?


Let's talk about the effect of moving weight around the head into TWO SEPARATE factors of heel/toe weight movement and then face to back weight movement because their functions and effects are completely different from each other.  

HEEL TO TOE WEIGHT MOVEMENT

ANY clubhead that is made with a weight screw designed to move from heel to toe for draw or fade bias intent will not show a distinctly VISIBLE change in draw or fade tendency FOR THE MAJORITY OF GOLFERS until the amount of weight eligible to be moved reaches at least 25 grams.   If such heel to toe movable weight screws could allow more weight movement than 25g, the amount of draw or fade bias change becomes more and more visible.  

At a heel/toe weight movement of more than 40 grams, at this point the weight will have moved the center of gravity so much toward the weight movement that you now begin to lose ball speed from an ON CENTER impact.  This is no BS.  I have designed several draw bias driver heads in my career so it is through this work that I have learned these facts.  My last toe to heel movable weight driver head done in 2006 proved that moving TOO MUCH weight to the heel or toe, meaning more than 40g, would move the CG enough that an on center hit would lose ball speed and distance.  

One more qualifier here though. . . . The more consistent the ball striking capability of the player, the more they can notice the effect of a heel to toe draw/fade bias weight movement.  But even with tour player skills in ball striking, draw/fade bias barely becomes noticeable at 20 grams of heel to toe movement.  For players who are good but not great ball strikers, let's generalize and say a 4 to 8 hdcp player, they just begin to see a slight but real draw/fade bias ball flight movement at 25 grams.  

Bottom line on this is that if you fade/slice or draw/hook the ball more than 10 yds and you want visible improvement on reducing that curving ball flight, change the FACE ANGLE of the wood and don't even mess with this toe to heel weight movement.   Face angle represents a direct 1 to 1 degree correction of the swing path/face delivery mistake that causes the slice or hook.  Heel to toe weight movement works by moving the center of gravity in relation to where you hit the ball on the face so its intentional horizontal gear effect on ball flight shape is so far less than what a face angle change of even 1.5 degs can be.

If you are a really consistent ball striker and you just want to reduce a little "nagging fade or nagging draw", that is where the heel to toe weight movement of 25g and more can step in to help.  But if you are a slicer, change the face angle to get better accuracy improvement results.

FACE TO BACK WEIGHT MOVEMENT

Moving weight from close behind the face to far back of the face is intended to lower or increase the launch angle, spin and trajectory of the shot.  However, there is a BIG difference in how face to back weight movement works for trajectory/spin change vs. how the toe to heel weight movement works to encourage a slight draw/fade bias in the shot.  

However, Aa face to back weight movement in a head only works to change trajectory and spin FOR GOLFERS WHO HAVE A LATER TO VERY LATE RELEASE.  This is because the face to back weight movement affects shot height and spin by creating either more or less forward bending on the shaft as it comes to impact.  The more the shaft bends forward coming to impact, the higher will be the dynamic loft on the clubhead and from that, the higher the trajectory and spin on the shot.  The less the shaft bends forward coming to impact, the lower will be the dynamic  loft on the clubhead and from that, the lower the trajectory and spin  on the shot.  

For a late release player, the closer the center of gravity of the head is to the face (actually to the ground line plane of the centerline of the shaft) the less the shaft will bend forward coming to impact.  So weight more forward means a little lower trajectory and lower spin.  And conversely, for the late release player,  the farther back the center of gravity of the head is to the face the more the  shaft could bend forward coming to impact.  So weight more rearward means a little higher trajectory and higher spin.

The effect of face to back weight movement on trajectory and spin can be more dramatic than a heel to toe weight movement effect on draw or fade ball flight shape.  This is because by moving the head's mass from front to back, in a 460cc driver the CG can be made to move as much as 15mm or more from face to back in the head.  For heel to toe weight movement, if you move the CG more than 4mm off the center of the face, you now start to decrease ball speed from impact having missed being in alignment with the CG.  

Hope this helps,

TOM

Thank you for this! Revisiting this post a few years later and with adjustable technology seemingly taking over the industry, it is interesting seeing how someone of your stature views it. Very intriguing bit about moving 40 grams toe/heel will decreased center hits but also that moving minimal amounts (2-5grams) will seemingly have minimal to no effect. Great post!
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