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Ball falling off tee help


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#1 Augster

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:00 PM

Well my eyes are burning from scouring the Decisions.  A little help if you could.

Player tees up the ball, just a little, on a par 3.  On his downswing he notices the ball moving forward and falling off the tee.  He tries to stop his swing, can't, and catches the ball off the hosel sending it straight right.

Player says he had no intention of hitting the ball after he saw it was falling, just couldn't stop his swing.  Thus no stroke.

I told him I believed he got to retee a new, different ball (the ball was skanked into a hazard) without penalty, lying zero.

Just playing with friends.

Is the above correct?  I couldn't really find the right Decision to support or contradict my ruling.

Any help is appreciated.


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#2 Socrates

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:15 PM

I believe it is a stroke.  From the Definitions:

Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.




The operative wording here is "before the clubhead reaches the ball".  He didn't stop before hitting the ball and therefore it is a stroke.
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#3 Sawgrass

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:34 PM

I agree with Socrates about it being a stroke ( since the club hit the ball) but even if it wasn't technically a stroke it would then be a violation of 18-2A i , which results in a one stroke penalty for causing the ball to move.

Either way, the player could tee it up again with a s/d penalty hitting three.

Edited by Sawgrass, 16 March 2012 - 05:34 PM.


#4 edwjmcgrath

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:05 PM

It is a stroke.  The decision you are looking for is 14/1.5.
Sawgrass, I think you may have forgotten that a ball on a tee is not in play, so 18-2 does not apply.



14/1.5

Intent to Strike Ball Ceases During Downswing; Club Not Stopped But Path of Clubhead Altered to Avoid Striking Ball
Q.A player begins his downswing with the intention of striking the ball but decides during the downswing not to strike the ball. The player is unable to stop the club before it reaches the ball, but he is able to swing intentionally over the top of the ball. Is the player deemed to have made a stroke?

A.No. The player is considered to have checked his downswing voluntarily by altering the path of his downswing and missing the ball even though the swing carried the clubhead beyond the ball.

If the player had not successfully checked his downswing (i.e., he had struck the ball), he is considered to have made a stroke.

Any doubt regarding the player's intent must be resolved against the player.




#5 raynorfan1

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:08 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 16 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I agree with Socrates about it being a stroke ( since the club hit the ball) but even if it wasn't technically a stroke it would then be a violation of 18-2A i , which results in a one stroke penalty for causing the ball to move.

Either way, the player could tee it up again with a s/d penalty hitting three.

Decision 14/1.5 is clear that contact with the ball makes it a stroke. Had he altered the clubhead position to avoid contact (and still swung through) it would not have been a stroke.


#6 Augster

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 16 March 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

I agree with Socrates about it being a stroke ( since the club hit the ball) but even if it wasn't technically a stroke it would then be a violation of 18-2A i , which results in a one stroke penalty for causing the ball to move.

Either way, the player could tee it up again with a s/d penalty hitting three.

The only problem with that is that the ball isn't "in play" yet as it is on the tee.

Thanks so much for the help guys.  14/1.5 is the closest to this situation for sure, but doesn't address balls not in play specifically.

On the course, the best I could find was Decision 18-2a/19 Ball Moved Accidentally by Practice Swing Prior to Tee Shot.

Under that Decision it is totally okay to hit the ball and replace it as the ball isn't in play yet and you have no intent to make a stroke.

I was reading between the lines, I guess, that after a player removed any intention to make a stroke it would therefore become a practice swing and fall under this Decision which makes it okay to contact the ball accidentally and you get to replace without penalty or counted stroke.

Under definition of Stroke, I guess a swing stays a stroke until the ball is missed.  It doesn't become a practice swing.

I guess in this real-work scenario, my friend would have to take the penalty stroke for the skank into the hazard then take relief under the options of the hazard.

Thanks for the help!

Additionally, hypothetically, could a player begin his swing intending to make a stroke, see the ball fall off, then (in his mind) declare to himself he may as well finish and use it as a practice swing, then accidentally hit the ball (while trying to miss it as you do in practice swings) and fall under 18-2a/19?  

I am guessing this exact situation falls under 14/1.5 as above.  It believe it is specifically vague to include "all balls" whether in play or not.  Thereby making my leap of "stroke becoming a practice swing" not possible under the Rules of Golf.

Is that at all correct?

Thanks much!

#7 Sawgrass

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:27 PM

A ball is in play the very moment the forward movement of a club is made with the intention of striking the ball.  That's why the decision reads that you've struck the ball even if you remove your intention during the forward stroke if you then accidentally contact the ball.  So your hypothetical regarding 18-2a/19 doesn't apply -- that's for a practice stroke at a ball not in play, and the ball in your described situation is already in play.  (If you hit your ball in play with a practice stroke you violate 18-2ai.)




Ball in Play
A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.




Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.



#8 Socrates

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:28 PM

I do believe that the teed ball is in play the moment he begins the down stroke.
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#9 Thrillhouse

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:31 PM

this should help



#10 Newby

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostAugster, on 16 March 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I am guessing this exact situation falls under 14/1.5 as above.  It believe it is specifically vague to include "all balls" whether in play or not.  

That is correct


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#11 edwjmcgrath

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:15 AM

View PostSocrates, on 16 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I do believe that the teed ball is in play the moment he begins the down stroke.


The definition of ball in play says "has made a stroke".  I read that to mean that the process of making a stroke has been completed.  I would think that if they meant that a ball was in play when a player has begun a stroke, they would have said that.  If we accept that the ball is in play the moment he begins the downstroke, and the player changes his mind during the stroke, and successfully avoids striking the ball, is the ball on the tee still in play?  Certainly not, since he has not made a stroke.

#12 puttingmatt

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:25 AM

View PostAugster, on 16 March 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well my eyes are burning from scouring the Decisions.  A little help if you could.

Player tees up the ball, just a little, on a par 3.  On his downswing he notices the ball moving forward and falling off the tee.  He tries to stop his swing, can't, and catches the ball off the hosel sending it straight right.

Player says he had no intention of hitting the ball after he saw it was falling, just couldn't stop his swing.  Thus no stroke.

I told him I believed he got to retee a new, different ball (the ball was skanked into a hazard) without penalty, lying zero.

Just playing with friends.

Is the above correct?  I couldn't really find the right Decision to support or contradict my ruling.

Any help is appreciated.

Sorry, Take your stroke. Once the ball is moved, shanked by your description, ball in play !!!
Big difference between ball falling off tee, and ball shanking right  several yards !!!  No stroke, Great gift between friends !!!
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#13 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:26 AM

View Postedwjmcgrath, on 17 March 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 16 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I do believe that the teed ball is in play the moment he begins the down stroke.


The definition of ball in play says "has made a stroke".  I read that to mean that the process of making a stroke has been completed.  I would think that if they meant that a ball was in play when a player has begun a stroke, they would have said that.  If we accept that the ball is in play the moment he begins the downstroke, and the player changes his mind during the stroke, and successfully avoids striking the ball, is the ball on the tee still in play?  Certainly not, since he has not made a stroke.


Yes, the definition of a ball in play says "has made a stroke."  But the definition of making a stroke clearly says that the stroke is simply the "forward movement of the club with the intention of striking at and moving the ball."  So it follows that the stroke has been made once the forward movement starts.  (If that weren't true, a whiff wouldn't count.)  Nevertheless, a stroke would be canceled if you check your swing before it reaches the ball, which isn't the case in all of these situations we've been talking about.


Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.



#14 Newby

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:28 AM

View Postedwjmcgrath, on 17 March 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 16 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I do believe that the teed ball is in play the moment he begins the down stroke.


The definition of ball in play says "has made a stroke".  I read that to mean that the process of making a stroke has been completed.  I would think that if they meant that a ball was in play when a player has begun a stroke, they would have said that.  If we accept that the ball is in play the moment he begins the downstroke, and the player changes his mind during the stroke, and successfully avoids striking the ball, is the ball on the tee still in play?  Certainly not, since he has not made a stroke.

The words 'has made' as opposed to 'is making' a stroke are the key.
'Has made' can only be after the stroke is completed not during.

#15 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostNewby, on 17 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

View Postedwjmcgrath, on 17 March 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 16 March 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

I do believe that the teed ball is in play the moment he begins the down stroke.


The definition of ball in play says "has made a stroke".  I read that to mean that the process of making a stroke has been completed.  I would think that if they meant that a ball was in play when a player has begun a stroke, they would have said that.  If we accept that the ball is in play the moment he begins the downstroke, and the player changes his mind during the stroke, and successfully avoids striking the ball, is the ball on the tee still in play?  Certainly not, since he has not made a stroke.

The words 'has made' as opposed to 'is making' a stroke are the key.
'Has made' can only be after the stroke is completed not during.

There doesn't seem to be a definintion of a stroke having been completed.  Your logic would indicate that the OP's situation, in which the newly teed ball was unintentionally struck into a hazard (no stroke made, ball therefore not in play), the ball could be teed up again penalty free.  Is that your belief?


#16 Newby

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

There doesn't seem to be a definintion of a stroke having been completed.  Your logic would indicate that the OP's situation, in which the newly teed ball was unintentionally struck into a hazard (no stroke made, ball therefore not in play), the ball could be teed up again penalty free.  Is that your belief?

No. See Decision 14/1.5

14/1.5 Intent to Strike Ball Ceases During Downswing; Club Not Stopped But Path of Clubhead Altered to Avoid Striking Ball

Q.A player begins his downswing with the intention of striking the ball but decides during the downswing not to strike the ball. The player is unable to stop the club before it reaches the ball, but he is able to swing intentionally over the top of the ball. Is the player deemed to have made a stroke?


A.No. The player is considered to have checked his downswing voluntarily by altering the path of his downswing and missing the ball even though the swing carried the clubhead beyond the ball.

If the player had not successfully checked his downswing (i.e., he had struck the ball), he is considered to have made a stroke.


Any doubt regarding the player's intent must be resolved against the player.

Edited by Newby, 17 March 2012 - 01:13 PM.


#17 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:30 PM

View PostNewby, on 17 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

There doesn't seem to be a definintion of a stroke having been completed.  Your logic would indicate that the OP's situation, in which the newly teed ball was unintentionally struck into a hazard (no stroke made, ball therefore not in play), the ball could be teed up again penalty free.  Is that your belief?

No. See Decision 14/1.5

14/1.5 Intent to Strike Ball Ceases During Downswing; Club Not Stopped But Path of Clubhead Altered to Avoid Striking Ball

Q.A player begins his downswing with the intention of striking the ball but decides during the downswing not to strike the ball. The player is unable to stop the club before it reaches the ball, but he is able to swing intentionally over the top of the ball. Is the player deemed to have made a stroke?


A.No. The player is considered to have checked his downswing voluntarily by altering the path of his downswing and missing the ball even though the swing carried the clubhead beyond the ball.

If the player had not successfully checked his downswing (i.e., he had struck the ball), he is considered to have made a stroke.


Any doubt regarding the player's intent must be resolved against the player.

To me, the justification/logic behind 14/1.5 is that the ball had just been put in play at the moment of the beginning of the forward swing.  If the player after subsequently changing his intent missed the ball, its "in play" status is revoked.  If the player accidentally hit the ball after he changed his intent, the "swing revokation" doesn't occur and he is peanalized for unintentionally moving his ball and must replace it.  If the stroke never had been made, he would have simply accidentally hit a ball that was not yet in play, as with bumping a ball off a tee you get free relief.

#18 Socrates

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:08 PM

That's how I see it too Sawgrass.
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#19 bobfoster

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:12 PM

If you hit the ball, it is a sroke, and is in play. Really, it is as simple as that.

#20 edwjmcgrath

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

It's really not as simple as that.  If you whiff, it is still a stroke.


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#21 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:09 PM

And if you hit it accidentally,  it is not a stroke and therefore must be replaced rather than played from its new location (unlike a stroke).

#22 Newby

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:40 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

To me, the justification/logic behind 14/1.5 is that the ball had just been put in play at the moment of the beginning of the forward swing.  If the player after subsequently changing his intent missed the ball, its "in play" status is revoked.  If the player accidentally hit the ball after he changed his intent, the "swing revokation" doesn't occur and he is peanalized for unintentionally moving his ball and must replace it.  If the stroke never had been made, he would have simply accidentally hit a ball that was not yet in play, as with bumping a ball off a tee you get free relief.

The status of the ball does not change until the ball is struck in the course of a stroke. See the definition.
  
The change to his intent isn't effected until he misses the ball. Until that point it is still a stroke and the ball is not in play. After that point it is no longer a stroke and the ball is still not in play.

If he hits the ball, then whatever change of intention was in his mind is irrelevant and the stroke is made. The ball is immediately and only now in play.

Edited by Newby, 17 March 2012 - 05:41 PM.


#23 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:48 PM

View PostNewby, on 17 March 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

To me, the justification/logic behind 14/1.5 is that the ball had just been put in play at the moment of the beginning of the forward swing.  If the player after subsequently changing his intent missed the ball, its "in play" status is revoked.  If the player accidentally hit the ball after he changed his intent, the "swing revokation" doesn't occur and he is peanalized for unintentionally moving his ball and must replace it.  If the stroke never had been made, he would have simply accidentally hit a ball that was not yet in play, as with bumping a ball off a tee you get free relief.

The status of the ball does not change until the ball is struck in the course of a stroke. See the definition.
  

Newby, I don't think you mean this. A newly teed ball is not yet in play. But after a whiff it is in play, correct?

#24 bobfoster

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 07:51 PM

View Postedwjmcgrath, on 17 March 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

It's really not as simple as that.  If you whiff, it is still a stroke.


Well no ... you're correct about that ... but I was adressing the OP ... he actually hit the ball, and was looking for some way to say that if his "intention" wasn't to hit the ball, then maybe it could somehow not count.

So all I was trying to say was that you don't need a lot of discussions about intention (in this particular case) ... if you actually hit the ball, it is a stroke. Period. No matter what you meant to do.

#25 Newby

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 05:03 AM

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

View PostNewby, on 17 March 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 17 March 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

To me, the justification/logic behind 14/1.5 is that the ball had just been put in play at the moment of the beginning of the forward swing.  If the player after subsequently changing his intent missed the ball, its "in play" status is revoked.  If the player accidentally hit the ball after he changed his intent, the "swing revokation" doesn't occur and he is peanalized for unintentionally moving his ball and must replace it.  If the stroke never had been made, he would have simply accidentally hit a ball that was not yet in play, as with bumping a ball off a tee you get free relief.

The status of the ball does not change until the ball is struck in the course of a stroke. See the definition.
  

Newby, I don't think you mean this. A newly teed ball is not yet in play. But after a whiff it is in play, correct?

Correct.

Sorry, I should have said 'The status of the ball does not change until a stroke has been made'.






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