69 replies to this topic

[j_moo]

Just something I was wondering about while teaching my neighbor how to play golf:

If you're counting every putt during a round, and assuming you are a decent putter (no 3 putts, 2nd putt to gimmie distance), 36 putts means you made none.  But did you really take 36 putts?  You made 18 attempts to hole a putt and 18 tap-ins you could have done with a wedge.

Now let's assume you have a good short game and a good iron player so you hit 14 GIR and chip the other 4 to gimmie distance.  That means you really only putted 14 times.

That's the number of times you would use the driver on a typical course.  The difference being the putter covered about 140 yards (assuming average putt is about 30 feet) while the drivers covered 3,500 yards (250 yard average drive).  Add to that the danger of missing a putt is a tap-in while missing a driver could mean multiple strokes (or none at all), could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

[teeitlow]

Well last season I went through half of it with not a single three putt!
However towards the end of the season I used my putter an embarrassing amount, so much so that I would deliberately hit short of the green or over so I could practice chipping.
Our gimmes where if you had the line or the speed within a foot, but we had a buddy who was an exception to that rule...if he was within a foot of line or speed and within 2 feet of the hole it was a gimme, because he was agonizingly slow and if allowed would 5-8 putt....very painful.
-D

[minhjn]

What?

[nutter]

so that's 14 putts with 18 gimmies?

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I leave a lot of second putts that I wouldn't care to try and hole with a wedge. Those 3-footers miss often enough putting them with the correct club for the job.

[eric_b]

If you were guaranteed to leave every putt within gimme distance.....than yes, the driver is the most important club.....or, more accurately, the next most important club.

Actually....no.....continuing with your scenario.....the next most important club would be your chipping club....I'm assuming some kind of wedge.....THEN it would be your driver.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you just spelled out a scenario where you have a fantastic chipper and putter then asked if the driver is the most important club in the bag.  Well, in that scenario....sure.  

However.....until you give yourself those guaranteed gimmes.....I would argue that the short clubs are where its at.

[leoh923]

I use my driver less than 14 times a round, and use my putter way more than 14 times.

By the way, in our mens league, there is no such thing as a gimmie.

[Aithos]

If you hit every single putt into gimme range the putter is still your most important club in the bag.  No one putts that well, not even the best pro putters in the world.  Besides, you could just as easily hit 3 wood off every tee to make sure you land in the fairway and still score well.  You don't need a driver, you *NEED* a putter.  You can also scramble from an errant tee shot without it costing you strokes over par as long as your irons/short game are in order.  If you 3 putt every hole you're taking strokes all over the place no matter how good the other aspects of your game are...

[k b]

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

no.  watch Happy Gilmore.

[KYMAR]

lol wow

[teeitlow]

leoh923, on 16 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I use my driver less than 14 times a round, and use my putter way more than 14 times.

By the way, in our mens league, there is no such thing as a gimmie.

Our gimmies still count as a stroke...it's just a way to keep the pace going. Did not mean to offend by suggesting that we did not count it!
-D

[eric_b]

k b, on 16 March 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

no.  watch Happy Gilmore.

Well played sir.....well played.

[j_moo]

It was difficult to explain to my neighbor, who is a beginner, why the putter is the most important club when he shot 120+ and only took 39 putts.  Especially when he lost a dozen balls, took maybe 20 penalty strokes, and never once did either of those on the greens ;-)

I understand people argue over what is a gimmie.  Let's just say there is agreement what that is since that's not what I am wondering.  So if you don't make any putts but simply lag all 18 attempts to within gimmie range, does those gimmies really count as a putt.  I know you still count them as a stroke in the score but in terms of determining how you really use you clubs, does it really?  Does it feel a bit like saying you hit all 14 fairways because you used an iron off the tee?

For those who say there are no gimmies, are you saying the putter is the most important club because you occassionally miss a 2 footer?  Isn't that largely due to the person and not the club?

[fua1]

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Just something I was wondering about while teaching my neighbor how to play golf:

If you're counting every putt during a round, and assuming you are a decent putter (no 3 putts, 2nd putt to gimmie distance), 36 putts means you made none.  But did you really take 36 putts?  You made 18 attempts to hole a putt and 18 tap-ins you could have done with a wedge.

Now let's assume you have a good short game and a good iron player so you hit 14 GIR and chip the other 4 to gimmie distance.  That means you really only putted 14 times.

That's the number of times you would use the driver on a typical course.  The difference being the putter covered about 140 yards (assuming average putt is about 30 feet) while the drivers covered 3,500 yards (250 yard average drive).  Add to that the danger of missing a putt is a tap-in while missing a driver could mean multiple strokes (or none at all), could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

The driver only has to be fair to have a good round. As long as you are not taking penalty strokes.due to bad driving you can score well. You do not even need to use it on all holes. If you can not reach a par 5 in 2 it does not matter if you use a driver.  Short par 4's you do not need it.  You can work around a bad driving day.  Not much you can do if you can not putt.

bad driving usually causes your worst scores.

You putter will determine your best scores and how low you can go.

[Huntster]

Your original post has a huge assumption and that is that every single putt will leave you a tap in second putt. That isn't decent putting that is world class putting.

[doubleBZee]

I use mine 19 times. Once on the practice green and the. Once on every green. Sometimes I putt once or twice but I consider that one use since I didn't put it back in the bag.

[eric_b]

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

It was difficult to explain to my neighbor, who is a beginner, why the putter is the most important club when he shot 120+ and only took 39 putts.  Especially when he lost a dozen balls, took maybe 20 penalty strokes, and never once did either of those on the greens ;-)

I understand people argue over what is a gimmie.  Let's just say there is agreement what that is since that's not what I am wondering.  So if you don't make any putts but simply lag all 18 attempts to within gimmie range, does those gimmies really count as a putt.  I know you still count them as a stroke in the score but in terms of determining how you really use you clubs, does it really?  Does it feel a bit like saying you hit all 14 fairways because you used an iron off the tee?

For those who say there are no gimmies, are you saying the putter is the most important club because you occassionally miss a 2 footer?  Isn't that largely due to the person and not the club?

Dude, in bold is a horse of completely different colour than your OP.

Having started the game a handful of years ago, I can completely understand your neighbours confusion.......and you're right, in that case, putting isn't the most important club in the bag....but neither is the driver.  It's basic ball striking.  

A lot of people will jump to the old cliche of "work on your short game to lower your handicap".....but I would argue that only applies to someone who can basically strike the ball....i.e. hit the ball most of the time and have it more or less go somewhere.  In your neighbours case he/she isprobably spraying it all over the place.....fat and thin, left and right.....yeah, he/she just needs to work on ball striking.....with ALL of their clubs (including putter).

However, once you can basically get around a course.....short game will drive your handicap down.

[slide13]

fua1, on 16 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

The driver only has to be fair to have a good round. As long as you are not taking penalty strokes.due to bad driving you can score well. You do not even need to use it on all holes. If you can not reach a par 5 in 2 it does not matter if you use a driver.  Short par 4's you do not need it.  You can work around a bad driving day.  Not much you can do if you can not putt.

bad driving usually causes your worst scores.

You putter will determine your best scores and how low you can go.

This is very true!  I had a bad driving season and I found ways to work around it and was still getting scores that were decent for my game.  Thankfully I'm usually at least a decent putter but I've had some bad days where it seemed like nothing would drop.  Not much you can do to work around that.

If you told me to go out and play a round and give up either driver or my putter you could have my driver ever single time.

[j_moo]

Huntster, on 16 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Your original post has a huge assumption and that is that every single putt will leave you a tap in second putt. That isn't decent putting that is world class putting.

Perhaps, what if the person had 0 GIR?  

I think the point I was wondering is what is a putt?  If you can walk up and tap it in, that feels very different from read the green, visualize the path, practice the stroke, and execute.  So to put equal weight on all 36 putts seem a bit misleading to me.

[DarkStewie]

I have a round already this season with only 25 putts. But that's only because I hit only 2 greens even though I hit 12 fairways. Was easy to see what I needed to work on after that round....

[j_moo]

eric_b, on 16 March 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

It was difficult to explain to my neighbor, who is a beginner, why the putter is the most important club when he shot 120+ and only took 39 putts.  Especially when he lost a dozen balls, took maybe 20 penalty strokes, and never once did either of those on the greens ;-)

I understand people argue over what is a gimmie.  Let's just say there is agreement what that is since that's not what I am wondering.  So if you don't make any putts but simply lag all 18 attempts to within gimmie range, does those gimmies really count as a putt.  I know you still count them as a stroke in the score but in terms of determining how you really use you clubs, does it really?  Does it feel a bit like saying you hit all 14 fairways because you used an iron off the tee?

For those who say there are no gimmies, are you saying the putter is the most important club because you occassionally miss a 2 footer?  Isn't that largely due to the person and not the club?

Dude, in bold is a horse of completely different colour than your OP.

Having started the game a handful of years ago, I can completely understand your neighbours confusion.......and you're right, in that case, putting isn't the most important club in the bag....but neither is the driver.  It's basic ball striking.  

A lot of people will jump to the old cliche of "work on your short game to lower your handicap".....but I would argue that only applies to someone who can basically strike the ball....i.e. hit the ball most of the time and have it more or less go somewhere.  In your neighbours case he/she isprobably spraying it all over the place.....fat and thin, left and right.....yeah, he/she just needs to work on ball striking.....with ALL of their clubs (including putter).

However, once you can basically get around a course.....short game will drive your handicap down.

I agree, thank you for calling me out on that.  I was wondering if I should be more explicit in the OP, but apparently "teaching my neighbor to play golf" didn't clearly communicate that point.  I'll try to be more careful.

So in your argument, it depends.  The better ball striker, the more important putting is.  Sure.  But for most golfers, 36 putts is not what's keeping us from being a low handicap player.  36 is the worst you can do if you don't 3 putt.  Don't know many people who take 36 from tee to green on their best days.  If you hit 9 GIR, you're a single digit handi!  It is also rare for people to not break 90 if you're long and straight off the tee.  You have to be some kind of bad with the irons and short game to take 40 shots from the middle of the fairway to get it on the green.

[square]

Yes, half of putts are tap-ins, and you make a good ponit there.
But, "driver" is not especially important. What matters is tee shot. Most players swing driver way too much. Driver 2 to 6 times per round is smart, even for the very longest of courses. But, most ams and too many playing pros, really, swing driver off 14 tee boxes.

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Add to that the danger of missing a putt is a tap-in while missing a driver could mean multiple strokes (or none at all), could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

I hate to go against the "spirit of the game" as some would have it but there's a thing you do on a golf course when you're just starting out that isn't really "golf" in the generally accepted sense of the term. If you aren't able to basically make the ball get in the air and go forward 'most every time you strike it then you can certainly have a good time, get some exercise and so forth. But stil it must be said that no advice directed at people who can actually play the game, even if badly, is going to apply to you. Once you can advance the ball, say, 250-300 yards with three swings and finish a couple holes in a row without losing a ball then it makes sense to talk about this or that shot being more important to practice. But up until that time, the only thing that matter is learning how to deliver the club to the back of the ball the majority of the time with some semblance of a repeatable motion in the proper direction.

Edited by Fourmyle of Ceres, 16 March 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[j_moo]

ccolding, on 16 March 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

I have a round already this season with only 25 putts. But that's only because I hit only 2 greens even though I hit 12 fairways. Was easy to see what I needed to work on after that round....

Exactly!  That' 11/16 in saves, assuming you didn't make any of the 2 birdie putts.  Did you have a fantastic putting day or just pretty good around the greens?

[lukesmurf59]

I certainly agree that the driver has more potential to get one into trouble on the course and ballstriking is the most important skill but putting is equally as important, perhaps just a little less.  One can argue that if you drive it into every fairway and hit every green relatively close to the hole, even just a mediocre putter can come in at the worst 1 or 2 over.  But on the other hand, one can drive the ball all over the map and miss every green and someone who has as much putting skill as the above ballstriker has in length and accuracy with a mediocre long game can shoot the same score of 1-2 over or better.
I have had days where I stripe the ball but just cannot make a putt to save my life and other days where I make everything I look at but am allergic to the fairways and my ball is scared of the greens.
You certainly use the putter for far more shots than the driver (distance doesn't matter at all, 300yds counts the same as 1in so your logic there is extremely flawed) but the driver is what begins most holes and presents you the opportunity for the most trouble.
You need a balance of long and accurate driving with good putting linked by lots of greens in regulation.  The more greens you hit and the closer you hit it to the pin, the more birdie chances you have.  If you drive the ball great but putt bad and hit few greens you'll be a mid handicap.  No mid handicaps are ever great putters, or at least I'm yet to play with one.  The pros beat the average amateur by 5-10 shots a round on the green and 5-10 tee to green.
Strictly driving is not as important as the entire long game, I personally always play my best when I hit the most greens in regulation because it gives me the most chances for birdies.  Of course good driving helps this but my irons are the key for me as I have had to learn how to hit greens from well off the map.  I always hit the driver long (well relatively long, not wrx long, I'm shockingly short compared to the things I read on here) but don't hit many fairways.  That being said, when I'm hitting driver in the fairway... watch out!  Because now I will hit almost every green which will give me a lot of looks at birdie.

[j_moo]

square, on 16 March 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

Yes, half of putts are tap-ins, and you make a good ponit there.
But, "driver" is not especially important. What matters is tee shot. Most players swing driver way too much. Driver 2 to 6 times per round is smart, even for the very longest of courses. But, most ams and too many playing pros, really, swing driver off 14 tee boxes.

j_moo, on 16 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Add to that the danger of missing a putt is a tap-in while missing a driver could mean multiple strokes (or none at all), could it be argued that the driver, and not the putter, is the most important club in the bag?

Aha, I think you are on to something.  It's not the club but rather the intention of the shot.  The intention of the 1st putt is to make it/lag it close, while the 2nd is to finish out.  So given that, how many 1st putts are made during a round so that you can really gauge how good of a putter you are?

The link to driver is not really the main point to what I was wondering but seem to raise the most attention.  The intention of the tee shot is to position yourself for the easiest approach possible.  While most of us distance challenged usually use the driver off the tee, it is not necessarily the wrong play.  Distance is more important for us than accuracy because the ball doesn't go too far into trouble.  But it's a lot easier approach with a mid iron than a long iron/hybrid.

[j_moo]

Fourmyle of Ceres, on 16 March 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

I hate to go against the "spirit of the game" as some would have it but there's a thing you do on a golf course when you're just starting out that isn't really "golf" in the generally accepted sense of the term. If you aren't able to basically make the ball get in the air and go forward 'most every time you strike it then you can certainly have a good time, get some exercise and so forth. But stil it must be said that no advice directed at people who can actually play the game, even if badly, is going to apply to you. Once you can advance the ball, say, 250-300 yards with three swings and finish a couple holes in a row without losing a ball then it makes sense to talk about this or that shot being more important to practice. But up until that time, the only thing that matter is learning how to deliver the club to the back of the ball the majority of the time with some semblance of a repeatable motion in the proper direction.

I agree with you but that doesn't sound very encouraging for a beginner golfer.  Scoring is not necessarily what one finds enjoyable about golf.  My neighbor is not very good, but no one can't deny him his enjoyment of the game.  At the end of the day, it's still just about putting the ball in the hole, doesn't matter how many strokes you take.  Otherwise, very few of us would be allowed on the course to begin with.

While watching him play, I was wondering if the 1st and 2nd putts are the same?  To me, they clearly are not.  Then counting them all together is not a very good indication of how good a person putts.  I don't know how to calculate putts gained like the PGA stat, so was wondering how do I track how good a putter I am?

[ron lefthanded holmes]

been a member of a links course the putter gets used the most for me,there is a lot of shots that are  of the green that its best to use putter,

[KYMAR]

Honestly, if this is the kind of information you are feeding to a beginner who can't break 120 you are gonna kill the game for him. He needs to learn to put the face of the club on the back of the ball with every club in the bag. This whole analysis regarding the most important club in the bag is at this point entirely useless to him. Honestly my advice for your next lesson, hand him the card of a qualified instructor who works well with beginners.

[Mschumacher]

Now that you mention it. I find it odd I spent $300 on a club I use 10-12 times (maybe even less) and $150 on a club I use 32-34 times a round.