52 replies to this topic

[PuttLeftHitRight]

People are right - start handing out strokes and people will get moving. Or you could go Rory Sabbatini on your partners

[farmer]

A friend of mine won a laser, and he gradually fell into the habit of lasing everything, from 400 yards to 30.  This on a simple course he had played hundreds of times.  We finally made so much fun of him that he quit, but there for a time he was a pain to play with.  If these kids had yardage books, a laser and a coach to help them choose between a six iron and a seven, then it's no wonder the rounds were endless.

[Deerslayer]

Quote

It starts even sooner than college. I played high level junior events and some of the rounds would take 6 hours and the kids would shoot high 70's and low 80's. I also talked to some people who played high level college and a few of them quit because of the pace of play.

I will have to disagree with some of the quote above.  I will give you my perspective on junior golf and the pace of play.  
TRUE, pace of play at high school tournaments can and does take 5+ hours.  The main reason behind this is the quality of the play.  Regularly you will have a small group of elite scoring players and have a lot that are proficient and many who will play so poorly that it can not do anything but bring the pace to a crawl.  

At the highest level of junior golf, (AJGA) the pace of play is ENFORCED.  Players have targets to positioning on the course and if you fall behind the group in front, you get one warning (red card) and the next red card results in strokes for everyone in the group.  I think it in some cases is taken too far though.  There is a rule now where when the first player putts his or her putt out, they leave the green and head to the next tee box to get ready to tee off.  It looks disrespectful to me and in many instances, it is a distraction to the players still putting out for another to be picking up his or her bag, all the while making some noise on the way to the next tee when his/her competitors are finishing out.  
This DOES speed up the pace of play.  Groups fall behind and get a red card, they begin to rush to keep pace.  It sucks to have two deliberate players in one group. Pace is an issue all day and it affects the other player in the group without question.  
This is not a perfect system by any means, but it is a system that is in place that probably should be instituted at the collegiate level.  Most if not all of those players KNOW exactly what the pace of play is on the AJGA and have dealt with it in tournament play.  We have all heard to horror stories of how slow college play is.  I drove by our home course last week and a division II event was going on there.  When I looked over on the tee box, I saw one group just leaving the tee, one sitting laid back with their bags on the tee and another group walking up to the tee from the 9th green.  Three groups on one tee at 11am.  I can only imagine how long that round took.

[Thrillhouse]

pga43, on 11 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't mind a conversation about it.  You made a post basically saying what I witnessed first hand doesn't happen (or doesn't happen the way I saw it) and I disagreed with you.  You don't agree with what I wrote and that's fine.  It doesn't mean that based on what you posted, all of a sudden I'm going to see your side and say gee your right, I'm wrong!

i dont expect you to say that im right and youre wrong but if we are having a conversation i would expect you to acknowledge the point i am making which you havent done. to be perfectly frank the fact that you are completely shut off to any opposing viewpoints on the matter combined with your whole "im just writing in bold large font so you can read what i wrote" stunt is incredibly ill mannered.

if you dont want opposing viewpoints on something you write then lock it up so nobody can respond, pretty simple.

Edited by Thrillhouse, 11 March 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[philsRHman]

I cannot even fathom playing like this. The story about the guy who practices by sitting for 10 minutes on each tee is mind-blowing. And the concept that the slower the player, the bigger the advantage makes perfect sense. I can't even imagine being the only player maintaining pace in an event that penalizes the entire group for slow play. We enforce every other rule within our own groups. Why not a shot clock and any player in a group can put a playing competitor on the clock? I can't see it changing any other way.

Just to show how much I hate slow play, I passed up the chance to play on a rare 70-degree March day in the northeast because the course was packed. Decided I'd prefer to be out there the next day, when it was 45 and empty.

[pga43]

Thrillhouse, on 11 March 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

pga43, on 11 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't mind a conversation about it.  You made a post basically saying what I witnessed first hand doesn't happen (or doesn't happen the way I saw it) and I disagreed with you.  You don't agree with what I wrote and that's fine.  It doesn't mean that based on what you posted, all of a sudden I'm going to see your side and say gee your right, I'm wrong!

i dont expect you to say that im right and youre wrong but if we are having a conversation i would expect you to acknowledge the point i am making which you havent done. to be perfectly frank the fact that you are completely shut off to any opposing viewpoints on the matter combined with your whole "im just writing in bold large font so you can read what i wrote" stunt is incredibly ill mannered.

if you dont want opposing viewpoints on something you write then lock it up so nobody can respond, pretty simple.

When you post this, "I played college golf before rangefinders and it was slow back then, so thats not it, honestly that should be speeding up play. I understand what you observed with coaches and assistant coaches, but honestly they do most of their talking to you between shots, so I don't think thats really it either (although it does contribute at times, I will concede that)".  


It looks like your telling me that what I saw and wrote was wrong.  So I'm suppose to acknowledge the point you're making, which seems to be that I'm wrong.  You want to use things that happened to you in the past and I was writing about a tournament that I just attended.  


I could say the same thing about you not wanting to acknowledge the point I was making about what I saw at this particular tournament.  You don't seem to want to accept that all the factors I attribute to the slow play, did indeed contribute to the slow play and I don't want to accept your points to the opposite.  We can/could just agree that we are on opposite sides of this issue.  


That to me is indeed a conversation/discussion/argument but one where it's not taken personally or becomes personal.  


As for the large font being a stunt or ill-mannered, I didn't mean it that way.  




Greg

[Thrillhouse]

@greg (im on the ipad and the quote isnt working)

fair enough, ill do my part to get this going in a more positive direction,

ill acknowledge your point about rangefinders and coaches contributing to slow play. i dont agree that they are the sole cause of slow play but i recognize your point.

like i said, we didnt have rangefinders when i played, i would have thought they would make play faster than wandering around looking for a sprinkler head, you say otherwise, fair enough. we had coaches doing the same thing you observed when i played, i dont entirely attribute slow play to that but i could see how you would think that was a factor.

thank you for apologizing about the large font.  

im not trying to say that your points are not valid, im trying to say that slow play is pervasive at all levels of competitive golf these days and has been for some time, i think we both agree on that even though we might not agree on the causes.

[pga43]

Thrillhouse, on 11 March 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

@greg (im on the ipad and the quote isnt working)

fair enough, ill do my part to get this going in a more positive direction,

ill acknowledge your point about rangefinders and coaches contributing to slow play. i dont agree that they are the sole cause of slow play but i recognize your point.

like i said, we didnt have rangefinders when i played, i would have thought they would make play faster than wandering around looking for a sprinkler head, you say otherwise, fair enough. we had coaches doing the same thing you observed when i played, i dont entirely attribute slow play to that but i could see how you would think that was a factor.

thank you for apologizing about the large font.  

im not trying to say that your points are not valid, im trying to say that slow play is pervasive at all levels of competitive golf these days and has been for some time, i think we both agree on that even though we might not agree on the causes.

If the players were only using the rangefinder it might indeed speed up play but they were also stepping off yardage from markers and also using the rangefinders, sometimes rechecking 2 or 3 times per shot.  Also, if the coaches were only in on a discussion on a difficult shot but once again, I observed this happen in what looked like to me all basic straightforward shots from the middle of the fairway & putts.

I would love to hear(read) your thoughts on what other factors contribute to slow play at the college level.


Greg

[CallawayLefty]

pga43, on 11 March 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 11 March 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

How many times do we have to go through this one?  My stance is: people can take however freaking long they want to take in tournaments.  If you have a problem with it, gripe at the tournament directors who are within their rights to penalize slow play, put people on the clock, belly ache to the players, etc.  If they don't enforce it, then why does it fall on the kids and/or pros who are TRYING TO MAKE A FREAKING LIVING PLAYING THIS GAME.  

On the other side, Saturday rounds with your buddies at the country club need to hold pretty darn close to 4 hours or under.  I'd apply the same wisdom to munis, but they all have ridiculously overcrowded tee sheets with tee times about twice as frequently as they should be, and it makes 4 hour rounds nearly impossible.  But of course many of you have already been hoodwinked by the greedy course owners into thinking that it's your fault that the course that has had people go off every 6 minutes the whole day is slow and that you somehow need to pick up the pace to fix the problem.  

Everyone stop buying the hype for about 10 seconds and actually think about this problem.  You have a problem with tournaments being slow?  Stay home - don't play or don't go watch, or change your TV channel to Jersey Shore.  You have a problem with slow play at normal courses?  Okay, maybe you have a point, but at least stop to analyze that maybe, just maybe, that slowness is caused by somebody other than the players you're ragging.

I have no idea how long you've played the game, at what skill level you play or how many tournaments you've played in but pace of play is indeed a real problem within the game [played for 20 years...competitive in high school, now in local and state am events...have not noticed a change in pace of play the whole time].  Losing millions of golfers each year for whatever reason (but when asked, most players who have given up the game stated it takes too much time to play) has caused a huge burden on golf course operators, many have been forced to close their courses and sell the property off (which ends up being more houses or industrial buildings).

How many golf courses around where you live have closed in the last 5 or 10 years?  That just means fewer places to play! [exactly zero courses in my area have closed in recent memory.  As I stated above, most are booked full on saturdays and sundays every 8 minutes, or at some other ridiculous increment]


Rule 6-7 Undue Delay; Pace of Play is defined in the Rules of Golf.  A way to handle slow play is already in place.  We just need to apply the appropriate penalties. [agree..did you read what I said about that?  I think I said blame the tournament directors who aren't doing anything about the problem, not the kids who have absolutely nowhere to be other than the golf course and couldn't care less whether the tournament took 3 hours or 13 hours]

As for "stop buying the hype for about 10 seconds and actually think about this problem"  I'm sure the Tournament Directors, the TV Networks Executives and the Sponsors all buy into your quick cure for the problem [my solution, as stated in my original post, was having tournament directors penalize people who take too long..what else would you propose?  Fine the college players?  Imprison them?  What?] , " You have a problem with tournaments being slow?  Stay home - don't play or don't go watch, or change your TV channel to Jersey Shore." [stand by this one]

And I'd love to hear your analysis for this statement "stop to analyze that maybe, just maybe, that slowness is caused by somebody other than the players you're ragging."  Who besides the players are causing the slow play? [What are you talking about?  I said that the problem for slow play at "normal courses," which if you read my post was meant to imply the munis I mentioned a couple sentences earlier, may be attributable to the fact that greedy public golf course owners jam their tee sheets up with 4 and 5 somes every 8 minutes for the whole day.  When you have three or four fivesomes on the same hole, how in the world can playing "ready golf" speed things up?  Actually, the only change I've noticed in pace of play over the last 20 years is that tee times used to be every 12 or 15 minutes, and now they're every 8 minutes.  You want pace of play problems worked out quickly - tell the course owners you're sticking up for to send off 2 or 3 less tee times per hour.  I played in a couple tournaments last summer with tee times every 12 minutes...4 hour rounds on the nose.]
d\
As thrillhouse noted, you seem pretty heck bent on your opinion here.  I will just say that at least some portion of the golf community you're writing to disagrees.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion though as well.  


Greg

Responses in italics.

[jaskanski]

College golf isn't really something I'm familiar with in the UK, but equally younger players who play at county level have somewhat of the same problem - that is they aspire to be the same as touring pros. While this in itself is not a bad thing, the sad truth is they really need to know their place in the grand scheme of things. That is to go about their business with a sense of purpose, rather than dallying around like they are playing the final round of the Masters. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen young players saunter around the course like they owned it, or deserved special recognition, or both. They don't and they don't. I would much rather they just played golf, ditched the coaches, dropped the nonsense of rangefinders (which are useless in competition anyway) and got on with setting an example to even younger players who aspire to be them.
Sadly the slow play trait is endemic with the younger generation who thinks the world owes them a living. I hate to sound like an old fart, but in my earlier life, junior golf came with restricted access to the course and naturally we tried to cram in as much golf as we could within a certain time frame - early in the morning, at twilight etc. - hence fast pace of play came easy to us. I agree with Thrillhouse, that slow play is largely a character trait and that they would probably still be slow regardless of range finders and other non-essential trappings. They do cause a lack of focus though if you ask me. Perhaps they just need a reality check once in a while - it's sad just how many people are detached from reality, it's little wonder that it has become such a problem.

[stage1350]

Just like public courses where slow play is a scourge, until the course and tournament directors have the cajones to penalize or kick people off the course for slow play, it will continue to get worse.

[pga43]

CallawayLefty, on 11 March 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

pga43, on 11 March 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 11 March 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

How many times do we have to go through this one?  My stance is: people can take however freaking long they want to take in tournaments.  If you have a problem with it, gripe at the tournament directors who are within their rights to penalize slow play, put people on the clock, belly ache to the players, etc.  If they don't enforce it, then why does it fall on the kids and/or pros who are TRYING TO MAKE A FREAKING LIVING PLAYING THIS GAME.  

On the other side, Saturday rounds with your buddies at the country club need to hold pretty darn close to 4 hours or under.  I'd apply the same wisdom to munis, but they all have ridiculously overcrowded tee sheets with tee times about twice as frequently as they should be, and it makes 4 hour rounds nearly impossible.  But of course many of you have already been hoodwinked by the greedy course owners into thinking that it's your fault that the course that has had people go off every 6 minutes the whole day is slow and that you somehow need to pick up the pace to fix the problem.  

Everyone stop buying the hype for about 10 seconds and actually think about this problem.  You have a problem with tournaments being slow?  Stay home - don't play or don't go watch, or change your TV channel to Jersey Shore.  You have a problem with slow play at normal courses?  Okay, maybe you have a point, but at least stop to analyze that maybe, just maybe, that slowness is caused by somebody other than the players you're ragging.

I have no idea how long you've played the game, at what skill level you play or how many tournaments you've played in but pace of play is indeed a real problem within the game [played for 20 years...competitive in high school, now in local and state am events...have not noticed a change in pace of play the whole time].  Losing millions of golfers each year for whatever reason (but when asked, most players who have given up the game stated it takes too much time to play) has caused a huge burden on golf course operators, many have been forced to close their courses and sell the property off (which ends up being more houses or industrial buildings).

How many golf courses around where you live have closed in the last 5 or 10 years?  That just means fewer places to play! [exactly zero courses in my area have closed in recent memory.  As I stated above, most are booked full on saturdays and sundays every 8 minutes, or at some other ridiculous increment]


Rule 6-7 Undue Delay; Pace of Play is defined in the Rules of Golf.  A way to handle slow play is already in place.  We just need to apply the appropriate penalties. [agree..did you read what I said about that?  I think I said blame the tournament directors who aren't doing anything about the problem, not the kids who have absolutely nowhere to be other than the golf course and couldn't care less whether the tournament took 3 hours or 13 hours]

As for "stop buying the hype for about 10 seconds and actually think about this problem"  I'm sure the Tournament Directors, the TV Networks Executives and the Sponsors all buy into your quick cure for the problem [my solution, as stated in my original post, was having tournament directors penalize people who take too long..what else would you propose?  Fine the college players?  Imprison them?  What?] , " You have a problem with tournaments being slow?  Stay home - don't play or don't go watch, or change your TV channel to Jersey Shore." [stand by this one]

And I'd love to hear your analysis for this statement "stop to analyze that maybe, just maybe, that slowness is caused by somebody other than the players you're ragging."  Who besides the players are causing the slow play? [What are you talking about? I said that the problem for slow play at "normal courses," which if you read my post was meant to imply the munis I mentioned a couple sentences earlier, may be attributable to the fact that greedy public golf course owners jam their tee sheets up with 4 and 5 somes every 8 minutes for the whole day.  When you have three or four fivesomes on the same hole, how in the world can playing "ready golf" speed things up?  Actually, the only change I've noticed in pace of play over the last 20 years is that tee times used to be every 12 or 15 minutes, and now they're every 8 minutes.  You want pace of play problems worked out quickly - tell the course owners you're sticking up for to send off 2 or 3 less tee times per hour.  I played in a couple tournaments last summer with tee times every 12 minutes...4 hour rounds on the nose.]
d\
As thrillhouse noted, you seem pretty heck bent on your opinion here.  I will just say that at least some portion of the golf community you're writing to disagrees.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion though as well.  


Greg

Responses in italics.

This is in response to one of your statements above, which I bolded.  I wrote about a recent College tournament that I attended, not what happens at a "normal course".  So your comments about "normal courses" (which I have no idea what a "normal course" is) really didn't mean anything to me.  

As for sticking up for "greedy public golf course owners", not all golf course owners are greedy, though they are in business to make money.  Since you haven't had any golf course close in your area, you should feel lucky.  Most areas have not been quite so fortunate.  Having all those golf courses to choose from should allow you to find the ones that do not jam 4-somes or 5-somes out there every 8 minutes.

As for starting times being 12 - 15 minutes apart and within the last 20 years moved to now 8 minute intervals, I started working in golf in 1969 and the starting times at the golf course where I worked at & played at in Southern California were 8 minute intervals way back then.  I have only heard of one golf course using 15 minute intervals (while I'm sure there may be others) and that is Pebble Beach.  They did this when the most recent group that owns Pebble Beach raised the greens fees cuz they figured they would make the same or more money each day with less play(so less wear & tear on the course).

But again, I was writing about a college event where they played in threesomes at 10 minute intervals.  No 4-somes or 5-somes jammed out on the golf course every 8 minutes (or " hoodwinked by the greedy course owners into thinking that it's your fault that the course that has had people go off every 6 minutes the whole day is slow and that you somehow need to pick up the pace to fix the problem.")!  

It's easy to look for other reasons as to why there's slow play or not even accepting/acknowledging that there is even a slow play problem at the college level and it leads to furthering the problem when these young men reach the Tour level.  I personally think there is a problem that could & should be headed off at the college level (the greedy public golf course owners have nothing to do with pace of play at the college level).  That was my whole point for writing the article.


Greg

[Thrillhouse]

pga43, on 11 March 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

If the players were only using the rangefinder it might indeed speed up play but they were also stepping off yardage from markers and also using the rangefinders, sometimes rechecking 2 or 3 times per shot.  Also, if the coaches were only in on a discussion on a difficult shot but once again, I observed this happen in what looked like to me all basic straightforward shots from the middle of the fairway & putts.

I would love to hear(read) your thoughts on what other factors contribute to slow play at the college level.


Greg

1. Like I said, the sports psychology aspect plays a big part. Another poster noted that when he first got exposed to sports psychology in golf that the emphasis was on an unbreakable routine that could be achieved in a short period of time so a player didn't have time to let bad thoughts creep in. Then he noted that ten years ago things started to change (this would be my generation of sports psychology). The first time I went to a sports psychologist was when I was 16 (and it wasn't the last). We spent a lot of time talking about routine, we spent a lot of time talking about not hitting till you are ready, we spent a lot of time talking about methodical preparation, but pace of play was not mentioned. In the following years my interactions with other sports psychologists followed this blueprint. The fact is that kids are going to sports psychologists at younger and younger ages and what is being taught slows down play. Thats why you are seeing one minute long routines out there.

2. To jaskanski's points, kids in my day and today have it reinforced by parents and others that they are supposed to be completely self absorbed out there and do everything they can do to ensure that they are ready to go regardless of how this affects others. This is why you see so much time being taken by these kids, its like they are saying "I am going to take all the time I need to do what I need to do and I don't care about anyone else". I don't mean to be too negative about the kids and I don't mean it in a malicious sense but you are kind of taught that the emphasis is on you and not the other 143 players in the field.

3. isaacbm said something interesting to me about this, he said that at that age (junior and college golf) a lot of kids are not mentally mature enough for competitive golf. Its a stressful environment and something you see people do to cope in that environment is take up a lot of time to feel as ready as they are going to get.

4. Slow play is unintentionally encouraged by parents and coaches. I know this isn't their intent but it is the effect of a lot of the advice they give.

5. This is specific to college golf. There are 5 travel spots, yet there are 10-15 guys on every team, except for a couple of redshirts everyone is competing for those travel spots and nobody wants to get left behind because it sucks. Not only that but if you qualify for one of the 5 travel spots and fire 75-75-75 in a tournament where everyone else is shooting under par you can bet that you won't be on the travel squad next time out no matter how well you play in qualifying. There is a lot of pressure in college golf to perform, it can be pretty stressful on these kids. If a kid is all worked up about what happens if they shoot 77 in a tournament it manifests itself into slower play simply because of the combination of nerves and the fact that these kids are trying so hard.

[minitour]

I played an APL qualifier several years back with a young kid from a fairly awesome Big 10 school.  Call it Outstanding State University...

Anyway, yeah the pace was terrible.  It starts with the coaches.  They're rewarded for wins.  So to make sure their team has the best shot of winning, they make sure the players take their time.  And take their time, they do.  I play my best when I play right around 4 hours.  Not rushed, but not slow.  I've played several 2-ish hour rounds (granted, nobody on the course and we had a cart) and really prefer it to the 5+ hour rounds common in even GCAT events.  It's just pathetic that pace isn't enforced better/at all.

[KDMullins]

The bottom line in my mind is players are just not ready to hit when it's their turn to hit. The reasons why are many.  At the major college and pro level, certainly yardage books, lasers, caddies, coaches, etc., contribute to the problem.  At the amateur level, I think a certain amount of slow play is due to amateurs watching and trying to emulate pros.  Another big problem I've noticed is that we have a lot of really bad amateur golfers playing on courses that they have no business playing.  

Back to the point, at ANY level, players need to be ready to hit when it's their turn.  I can't tell you how many times at both the professional and amateur level, guys don't really even appear to be thinking about their shot until it's their turn to hit.  Then every other person in the group is left watching them laser, select club, put glove on, etc.  It's maddening.  

On Tour, I can never really tell what's going on because some players are off camera, but it's almost like they're trying to build suspense for the viewing audience or something.  It's the third guy's turn to put in a threesome, and it's like he's just walked up on the green.  He looks at it from both sides, caddie's walking around, the whole bit, and I'm like, what the heck have you been doing while these other two guys just putted!

Edited by KDMullins, 11 March 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[bonagolf]

I am currently playing golf at a small D1 school up north and I, like everyone else have to agree that slow pace is a huge annoyance. So much so that we often dread waking up at 6am getting to the course at 7am and teeing off at 8 in the morning just so we can play 36 non-stop holes by sunset. BY SUNSET!


A 12+ hour day is nothing unusual to college golf and yes it has to do with coaches and rangefinders but the main culprit is the tournament commitee. YELL AT PEOPLE!

All of us college players are busting our a** day in and day out just to make the travel sqauds so of course when we get into a tournament we have in the back of our mind "I better play well if I want to play next weekend". Because of that kids take too much time on every shot worrying about all of the bad things that can happen and trying to block that out and focus on hitting a perfect shot. It is also not uncommon to finish a hole and go to the next teebox while the next group is stil sitting there waiting to tee off.

Neither restricting coaches or getting rid of yardage books or rangefinders will make a big enough impact on pace of play. The only thing that can change this slow golf epidemic is penalty strokes. There are so many tournament officials and helpers that just sit around and do nothing for the 12 hours, so go watch groups and tell them to GET MOVING!!! Using somthing similar to the AJGA system and the redcards will make an improvement. Whatever it is DO SOMETHING soon or else its going to turn into 12.5 hour days, then 13 hour days, and so on.

[Doc420]

philsRHman, on 11 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I cannot even fathom playing like this. The story about the guy who practices by sitting for 10 minutes on each tee is mind-blowing. And the concept that the slower the player, the bigger the advantage makes perfect sense. I can't even imagine being the only player maintaining pace in an event that penalizes the entire group for slow play. We enforce every other rule within our own groups. Why not a shot clock and any player in a group can put a playing competitor on the clock? I can't see it changing any other way.

Just to show how much I hate slow play, I passed up the chance to play on a rare 70-degree March day in the northeast because the course was packed. Decided I'd prefer to be out there the next day, when it was 45 and empty.

My friend told me he had to practice that way so that he can get used to the slow play and not screw his game up. But when he is just playing a regular round and not getting ready for a tournament then he plays in about 3:30 with a foursome, or right around 2 hours when he is playing by himself.

[tokyo jo]

The problem here lies with the main tours - PGA and European. Painfully slow play has become the norm and despite the rules being very clear, apart from the odd financial penalty, nothing is done. Applying two shot penalties is the only way to resolve the issue. I understand not one player on the PGA Tour has been penalised since Fincham has been head honcho... and yet everyone knows who is notoriously slow, week in week out.

As for "tournament officials shouting at people" I completely disagree. Many, many players get equally frustrated with 5+ hour rounds. Find the culprits - they'll be the group out of position on the course - observe to see which player(s) are responsible and take action.

General etiqutte seems to be problem too. I talked to a D1 player this week. Last weekend, when searching for his ball, the other 3 players in his group completely ingnored him as did an Assist Coach who was following (and should have know better). He said this is common. The Pros maybe terribly slow, but at least uphold some aspects of the game.

BTW - as rangefinders are illeagal for Pro's and the length of rounds is getting longer and longer, I think its safe to assume they are not the problem. From my experience in R&A events (where distance finders are banned) the use of traditional yardage charts takes even longer...

[pga43]

tokyo jo, on 14 March 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The problem here lies with the main tours - PGA and European. Painfully slow play has become the norm and despite the rules being very clear, apart from the odd financial penalty, nothing is done. Applying two shot penalties is the only way to resolve the issue. I understand not one player on the PGA Tour has been penalised since Fincham has been head honcho... and yet everyone knows who is notoriously slow, week in week out.

As for "tournament officials shouting at people" I completely disagree. Many, many players get equally frustrated with 5+ hour rounds. Find the culprits - they'll be the group out of position on the course - observe to see which player(s) are responsible and take action.

General etiqutte seems to be problem too. I talked to a D1 player this week. Last weekend, when searching for his ball, the other 3 players in his group completely ingnored him as did an Assist Coach who was following (and should have know better). He said this is common. The Pros maybe terribly slow, but at least uphold some aspects of the game.

BTW - as rangefinders are illeagal for Pro's and the length of rounds is getting longer and longer, I think its safe to assume they are not the problem. From my experience in R&A events (where distance finders are banned) the use of traditional yardage charts takes even longer...

When the players are using both the rangefinder and their yardage book, it has to be at least part of the problem.


Greg

[tokyo jo]

pga43, on 14 March 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

tokyo jo, on 14 March 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

The problem here lies with the main tours - PGA and European. Painfully slow play has become the norm and despite the rules being very clear, apart from the odd financial penalty, nothing is done. Applying two shot penalties is the only way to resolve the issue. I understand not one player on the PGA Tour has been penalised since Fincham has been head honcho... and yet everyone knows who is notoriously slow, week in week out.

As for "tournament officials shouting at people" I completely disagree. Many, many players get equally frustrated with 5+ hour rounds. Find the culprits - they'll be the group out of position on the course - observe to see which player(s) are responsible and take action.

General etiqutte seems to be problem too. I talked to a D1 player this week. Last weekend, when searching for his ball, the other 3 players in his group completely ingnored him as did an Assist Coach who was following (and should have know better). He said this is common. The Pros maybe terribly slow, but at least uphold some aspects of the game.

BTW - as rangefinders are illeagal for Pro's and the length of rounds is getting longer and longer, I think its safe to assume they are not the problem. From my experience in R&A events (where distance finders are banned) the use of traditional yardage charts takes even longer...

When the players are using both the rangefinder and their yardage book, it has to be at least part of the problem.


Greg

[tokyo jo]

I get it....you think Rangefinders, yardage charts and coaches are the problem - seems many people here disagree with your opinion.

Many College players will aspire to play professionally. The elite tour players become idols and role models. Most golfers - young & old - wear the same limited range of clothing as the pro's, play the same brand of club and the better players will develop similar pre shot routines etc etc. Why are you then surprised they take as long as the pros to play a round? The pros have caddys to help with yardages, spotters to find their ball, refs on hand  and still it takes an age to play 18 holes. Sort the problem at the top end of the game by applying the rules fully - 2 shot penalty - and the improvement in the speed of play will filter down.

You ignored my comment about R&A events, but the absence of rangefinders does not improve the pace of play, if anything it might add to the problem, albeit marginally.

Slow play is generally caused by selfishness. Players of all levels - from tour to weekly hackers don't want their pace of play dictated by the slowest player in the group. But until the authorities who run the game make it clear it is rude, inconsiderate and unacceptable it will continue. Don't tar every college player with the same brush. Most of the players I know acknowledge they'd play better if they could get round in 3.5 hours.

[J_D]

I play HS golf, nobody on our team except this one girl can shoot scratch consistently, I think we play too fast, half of the people we play with just walk up to the ball and hit it and while I'm not good I take my time to get confident with the shot I'm about to execute.. I wish we could play a little slower but we don't. Oh well.

[theLeftyBeast]

I play HS golf and it is way too slow. I teed off at 8:30 Tuesday in our school's invitational and finished at 1:45. It takes way too long. I hope they find a solution before I get to college