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Cupped left wrist


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#1 WpgMike

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:01 AM

I'm trying to get rid of my cupped left wrist in an attempt to eliminate some pulls,  but for the life of me I can't see how the wrist and forearm can be COMPLETELY flat at the top with a neutral grip (left thumb at 1 o'clock).  At the top of my swing the side of my forearm and the side of my hand (the side where the pinky finger is) is straight - which I take to be a good thing.  However, there is a small angle between the back of my hand and my arm - and I don't see how it can be flat since my left thumb is on the right side of the club (neutral grip) which naturally creates an angle there.  Now, I can rotate my wrists to get rid of this angle but then the clubface is pointed at the sky - completely closed.  

If I take a very weak grip with the two thumbs pointed straight down the shaft at 12 o'clock then I can see how both the side of the forearm and pinky-side of my hand can be straight AND have NO angle between the back of the hand and the arm, but when that left thumb is turned over to the right side of the grip I just don't see how it can work.

Am I doing something wrong??  I don't have my next lesson for a couple weeks and it's driving me nutso!

thanks
Mike

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#2 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

View PostWpgMike, on 02 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

I'm trying to get rid of my cupped left wrist in an attempt to eliminate some pulls,  but for the life of me I can't see how the wrist and forearm can be COMPLETELY flat at the top with a neutral grip (left thumb at 1 o'clock).  At the top of my swing the side of my forearm and the side of my hand (the side where the pinky finger is) is straight - which I take to be a good thing.  However, there is a small angle between the back of my hand and my arm - and I don't see how it can be flat since my left thumb is on the right side of the club (neutral grip) which naturally creates an angle there.  Now, I can rotate my wrists to get rid of this angle but then the clubface is pointed at the sky - completely closed.  

If I take a very weak grip with the two thumbs pointed straight down the shaft at 12 o'clock then I can see how both the side of the forearm and pinky-side of my hand can be straight AND have NO angle between the back of the hand and the arm, but when that left thumb is turned over to the right side of the grip I just don't see how it can work.

Am I doing something wrong??  I don't have my next lesson for a couple weeks and it's driving me nutso!

thanks
Mike

It's possible you have too much arm lift and not enough left arm rotation at the top of the swing.  That can cause what you describe.
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#3 sjg5359

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

Sounds strange but maybe you should stregthen your grip.   Maybe since your grip is weak you are over compensating with a cupped left wrist.

#4 WpgMike

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:08 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 02 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's possible you have too much arm lift and not enough left arm rotation at the top of the swing.  That can cause what you describe.


Interesting, thanks for the thought.  I've been working hard this winter to get a more upright swing plane becuase I was way to flat before - flipping the club inside during the takeaway.  Now I have it where my left arm rotates enough so that the toe of the club is pointed vertical (to the sky) during the takeaway as the club reaches a point where it's horizontal to the ground (around hip height).  Are you saying I need to rotate the left arm more than that?

thanks
Mike
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#5 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

View PostWpgMike, on 02 March 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 02 March 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's possible you have too much arm lift and not enough left arm rotation at the top of the swing.  That can cause what you describe.


Interesting, thanks for the thought.  I've been working hard this winter to get a more upright swing plane becuase I was way to flat before - flipping the club inside during the takeaway.  Now I have it where my left arm rotates enough so that the toe of the club is pointed vertical (to the sky) during the takeaway as the club reaches a point where it's horizontal to the ground (around hip height).  Are you saying I need to rotate the left arm more than that?

thanks
Mike

I think we have found the problem.  It sounds likely that in order to get more upright and early left arm rotation...you are getting too much "early" left arm rotation, getting to about the 3/4 point in the backswing, then lifting and your left arm has already reached maximum rotation.

It's more important that your left arm rotates late in the backswing than early.

The feel that makes sense to most people is very vertical shoulder turn early and very late left arm rotation.

That feel matches things up for most people and has the arms match the shoulder turn.

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#6 Sabre3

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:57 PM

Monte,
Do you have any videos that touch on forearm rotation?

#7 WpgMike

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:03 PM

Thanks Monte.  Can I get your opinion (and anyone else who might want to chime in) on the following video:

http://www.wgt.com/n...-backswing.aspx

This illustrates what I've been thinking.  If the grip is neutral to strong, then there will naturally be an angle at the top of the swing if the clubface is to remain square.  This makes sense to me, but do I just think that becuase it re-inforces my thoughts?  There are so many different opinions on the internet it's hard to discern what's good advice and not.

thanks
Mike


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#8 DeNinny

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:14 AM

I like the idea of keeping the same cup angle at address throughout the backswing and into the hit.  Tom Watson advocates this in his Lessons of a Lifetime DVD.  Makes for a free feeling release to me.  I play a neutral to weak grip and I try to get my hand under the shaft at the top of my backswing.  It equates to the same amount of cup as I have at address.  I always felt the flat left wrist didn't feel as natural and harder for me to feel a free release through the hit.

BTW WpgMike I don't know the relation between your cup and right thumb down the top of the shaft, but be careful with that grip.  For me it is better to angle it a little.

Edited by DeNinny, 03 March 2012 - 02:17 AM.


#9 dairic

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:52 AM

Why do you want to get rid of your cupped left wrist?

My misses tend to be hooks so i set up with a neutral grip like you and have a cupped left wrist at the top of the backswing. This Increases the range of motion of the club face by opening it a bit. This way i can give it all I've got on the downswing with no risk of a hook. Its an awsome feeling.

Flat, cupped, or bowed left wrist at the top are not measures in and of themselves of a good or bad swing IMO.

#10 WpgMike

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostDeNinny, on 03 March 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

I like the idea of keeping the same cup angle at address throughout the backswing and into the hit.  Tom Watson advocates this in his Lessons of a Lifetime DVD.  Makes for a free feeling release to me.  I play a neutral to weak grip and I try to get my hand under the shaft at the top of my backswing.  It equates to the same amount of cup as I have at address.  I always felt the flat left wrist didn't feel as natural and harder for me to feel a free release through the hit.

BTW WpgMike I don't know the relation between your cup and right thumb down the top of the shaft, but be careful with that grip.  For me it is better to angle it a little.

Thanks!  Do you have your right hand or left hand under the grip?  

Regarding the right thumb, I agree with you and I do have my right thumb at an angle.

Mike

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#11 WpgMike

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:45 PM

View Postdairic, on 03 March 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Why do you want to get rid of your cupped left wrist?

My misses tend to be hooks so i set up with a neutral grip like you and have a cupped left wrist at the top of the backswing. This Increases the range of motion of the club face by opening it a bit. This way i can give it all I've got on the downswing with no risk of a hook. Its an awsome feeling.

Flat, cupped, or bowed left wrist at the top are not measures in and of themselves of a good or bad swing IMO.

Thanks for the input dairic.  I think what you say makes sense.  The only reason I'm concerned about it is that I still have a slightly out to in path and I think this may be contributing to it.  After doing some research on this, I'm now working on getting my right hand under the club at the top of the backswing without worrying about the slight cup that is still there at the top.

I'll see how the range session tonight goes!

Mike
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#12 Stu-Co

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 03:12 PM



First drill is awesome... very simple!
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#13 DeNinny

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostWpgMike, on 03 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Thanks!  Do you have your right hand or left hand under the grip?  

Regarding the right thumb, I agree with you and I do have my right thumb at an angle.

Mike

I feel they are more on both sides of the grip at address.  I grip pretty deep into my fingers and both hands are neutral to weak. My right hand is slightly more weak than my left. When I want to fade one hard I almost put it on top of the grip with my left hand unchanged (and cupped!).  

At the top of my swing, because my left hand is cupped as it was at address, my right hand is more supporting the grip and is the hand that is under it as a result.  It is almost the same as it was at address.  Both hands on both sides of the shaft but at an angle and with hinged wrists.

On the downswing, as a result of a good wrist hinge and maintaining that cup, I can just create lag and then unleash into the ball.  Really snap my release freely through the hit.  

I think in essence a cupped left wrist makes it easier and more natural feeling to hinge with the right wrist as you take it to the top and also as you create lag on the way down.  Then when you are at the top you just get right under it and you are needing less effort to support it than with a flat left wrist.

Good news about your angled right thumb too. :good:

Edited by DeNinny, 03 March 2012 - 06:23 PM.


#14 WpgMike

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

View PostStu-Co, on 03 March 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:



First drill is awesome... very simple!

Thanks for the link!  I was actually doing this drill, but with a book instead of a frisbee.  If you look at 1:52 in the video, the actually has a slight cup in his left wrist after demonstrating the drill.  I take this to mean that the wrist doesn't have to be completely flat.

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#15 WpgMike

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:15 PM

View PostDeNinny, on 03 March 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

View PostWpgMike, on 03 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Thanks!  Do you have your right hand or left hand under the grip?  

Regarding the right thumb, I agree with you and I do have my right thumb at an angle.

Mike

I feel they are more on both sides of the grip at address.  I grip pretty deep into my fingers and both hands are neutral to weak. My right hand is slightly more weak than my left. When I want to fade one hard I almost put it on top of the grip with my left hand unchanged (and cupped!).  

At the top of my swing, because my left hand is cupped as it was at address, my right hand is more supporting the grip and is the hand that is under it as a result.  It is almost the same as it was at address.  Both hands on both sides of the shaft but at an angle and with hinged wrists.

On the downswing, as a result of a good wrist hinge and maintaining that cup, I can just create lag and then unleash into the ball.  Really snap my release freely through the hit.  

I think in essence a cupped left wrist makes it easier and more natural feeling to hinge with the right wrist as you take it to the top and also as you create lag on the way down.  Then when you are at the top you just get right under it and you are needing less effort to support it than with a flat left wrist.

Good news about your angled right thumb too. :good:

Thanks very much!  Well I tried to concentrate on forcing my wrist flatter and I was completely shutting the face down and hitting hooks.  I HATE hooks. I went back to leaving a small cup in my wrist (the club is still resting on top of my right hand at the top) and the hooks went away and was replaced by a slight left to right ball flight, which I much prefer.

My misses are still 10-15 yard pulls though and I need to work on this.

Mike

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#16 A.G.Blade

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostWpgMike, on 02 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

I'm trying to get rid of my cupped left wrist in an attempt to eliminate some pulls,  but for the life of me I can't see how the wrist and forearm can be COMPLETELY flat at the top with a neutral grip (left thumb at 1 o'clock).  At the top of my swing the side of my forearm and the side of my hand (the side where the pinky finger is) is straight - which I take to be a good thing.  However, there is a small angle between the back of my hand and my arm - and I don't see how it can be flat since my left thumb is on the right side of the club (neutral grip) which naturally creates an angle there.  Now, I can rotate my wrists to get rid of this angle but then the clubface is pointed at the sky - completely closed.  

If I take a very weak grip with the two thumbs pointed straight down the shaft at 12 o'clock then I can see how both the side of the forearm and pinky-side of my hand can be straight AND have NO angle between the back of the hand and the arm, but when that left thumb is turned over to the right side of the grip I just don't see how it can work.

Am I doing something wrong??  I don't have my next lesson for a couple weeks and it's driving me nutso!

thanks
Mike

A cupped left wrist is ok is you have a naturalstrong lefthand grip.  Ive learned on this site its best to listen to people with exp like Monte for long term results.

#17 sniper

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 03:59 PM

I think we have found the problem.  It sounds likely that in order to get more upright and early left arm rotation...you are getting too much "early" left arm rotation, getting to about the 3/4 point in the backswing, then lifting and your left arm has already reached maximum rotation.

It's more important that your left arm rotates late in the backswing than early.

The feel that makes sense to most people is very vertical shoulder turn early and very late left arm rotation.

That feel matches things up for most people and has the arms match the shoulder turn.
[/quote]

Don't want to threadjack, but can you comment a little more on the "very vertical shoulder turn early and very late left arm rotation"?

#18 WpgMike

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 11:55 PM

When I say cup I'm talking about a very small angle between the side of the hand and the arm, not a big bend.  I was looking at Rory's swing today and he seems to have a slight cup.  I wish I could post a picture of my position but I don't have one available.
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