82 replies to this topic

[MichiganMike]

Last week all the news about Keegan seemed to be about the spitting.  This is not another thread to rehash that topic, because what bothered me more were his obsessive gyrations.  I have no idea whether Keegan would admit he's a slow player or not, but watching him got me thinking about the many slow play threads on this site.

Think about it.  How many threads have seen where some poor soul innocently mentions something about his preshoot routine and then gets pounced on.  Said Poor Soul then gives the obligatory defense about how he's not really slow and the accusers have him all wrong.

The defensive poor soul is guaranteed to use one of two expressions, if not both, when explaining himself.  I'd bet good money that 99% of the time the poor soul will say either "I just" or "all I do is."  For dramatic effect you can sprinkle in an "occasionally" or an "I might."  Take the following Keegan Bradley hypothetical:

Keegan: "All I do is visualize my shot. After that I just pick out an alignment spot.  Then I'm ready to go.  Occassionally if something doesn't feel right I might back off for a second before hitting the ball.  But overall it doesn't take much time.  I don't see what everyone is complaining about."

Edited by MichiganMike, 23 February 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[roll - gybe]

"If you need a ball retriever..."

When you hear that: RUN

[eric_b]

Actually.....when asked about the constant backing off.....keegan replied that he visualizes the shot and that if any negative thought or distraction comes into his head, he backs off.  Then he said, and I quote "I won't hit a shot until I'm ready"

Look, I like Keegan Bradley....but I think his answer is the root cause of why some people are slow players.....they're selfish.  Regardless of the rules (be it of a tournament, the course or just common courtesy), it's about what they want.

Like the guy on the Simpson's said....sometimes, elephants, like people, are just jerks.

[rbrb]

Quote

.

Like the guy on the Simpson's said....sometimes, elephants, like people, are just jerks.

Webb Simpson said that?

[CallawayLefty]

eric_b, on 23 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Actually.....when asked about the constant backing off.....keegan replied that he visualizes the shot and that if any negative thought or distraction comes into his head, he backs off.  Then he said, and I quote "I won't hit a shot until I'm ready"

Look, I like Keegan Bradley....but I think his answer is the root cause of why some people are slow players.....they're selfish.  Regardless of the rules (be it of a tournament, the course or just common courtesy), it's about what they want.

Like the guy on the Simpson's said....sometimes, elephants, like people, are just jerks.

I agree with the general idea that slow play sucks and people need to speed it up.  But if you're in a TOURNAMENT, especially one with a million bucks on the line and your future career at stake - and I'm in no way talking about a casual round with your buddies - what other answer is there but to be selfish?  You're playing for your livelihood, it's absolutely all on the line on every single shot.  And it's not like Phil Mickelson and Bill Haas have somewhere else to be that Keegan is keeping them away from.  They're all pros, they know what they're getting in to.  

I was talking to my club guy about a guy he knows who made it to the 2nd stage of q school this year and got paired with some knucklehead who was playing a 6 hour round and really holding everybody up.  The guy got a bit perturbed and ended up missing his mark to advance to the final stage by a shot because of some loose shots on the way in.  I asked how the guy who took forever did...made it by 1 shot.  

I guess my point is that in a tournament where it's all the line, I can't really fault somebody for doing what he needs to do to make it happen the way he wants it to.  If I get paired with Keegan anytime soon on a Saturday at the local muni and he's taking 6 hours, I'll probably just ask him if I can go ahead and play on without him.

[tjumper78]

roll - gybe, on 23 February 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

"If you need a ball retriever..."

When you hear that: RUN

hey......

[Gunner22]

If Keegan was playin a casual round? Agreed. Way too long to hit the ball.   Hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line with each and every shot, no problem with it. No one on here would be rushing shots if it meant making 300k or 1.2MM

[eric_b]

CallawayLefty, on 23 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I agree with the general idea that slow play sucks and people need to speed it up.  But if you're in a TOURNAMENT, especially one with a million bucks on the line and your future career at stake - and I'm in no way talking about a casual round with your buddies - what other answer is there but to be selfish?  You're playing for your livelihood, it's absolutely all on the line on every single shot.  And it's not like Phil Mickelson and Bill Haas have somewhere else to be that Keegan is keeping them away from.  They're all pros, they know what they're getting in to.  

I was talking to my club guy about a guy he knows who made it to the 2nd stage of q school this year and got paired with some knucklehead who was playing a 6 hour round and really holding everybody up.  The guy got a bit perturbed and ended up missing his mark to advance to the final stage by a shot because of some loose shots on the way in.  I asked how the guy who took forever did...made it by 1 shot.  

I guess my point is that in a tournament where it's all the line, I can't really fault somebody for doing what he needs to do to make it happen the way he wants it to.  If I get paired with Keegan anytime soon on a Saturday at the local muni and he's taking 6 hours, I'll probably just ask him if I can go ahead and play on without him.

I agree....but only to a certain extent.  

They're playing for millions of dollars thanks for sponsors....and sponsors are there because of viewers....and viewers are they because they enjoy watching golf....if you're playing slow affects the enjoyment of the game....which it does....for golfwrx members anyway.....then it's still a problem.

In addition, the tour does have a limit on time to play a round....which is why they put people "on the clock".....sure, they don't do anything about guys who are on the clock....but it's still a rule violation.

Whether you're playing for millions of dollars....or you paid your green fee just like everyone else....so you feel entitled to take as long as you want.....doesn't change the fact that there's a big world around you, and you might be ticking some people off....

[MadGolfer76]

Here we go again....

[denismcg]

CallawayLefty, on 23 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I agree with the general idea that slow play sucks and people need to speed it up.  But if you're in a TOURNAMENT, especially one with a million bucks on the line and your future career at stake - and I'm in no way talking about a casual round with your buddies - what other answer is there but to be selfish?  You're playing for your livelihood, it's absolutely all on the line on every single shot.  And it's not like Phil Mickelson and Bill Haas have somewhere else to be that Keegan is keeping them away from.  They're all pros, they know what they're getting in to.  

I was talking to my club guy about a guy he knows who made it to the 2nd stage of q school this year and got paired with some knucklehead who was playing a 6 hour round and really holding everybody up.  The guy got a bit perturbed and ended up missing his mark to advance to the final stage by a shot because of some loose shots on the way in.  I asked how the guy who took forever did...made it by 1 shot.  

I guess my point is that in a tournament where it's all the line, I can't really fault somebody for doing what he needs to do to make it happen the way he wants it to.  If I get paired with Keegan anytime soon on a Saturday at the local muni and he's taking 6 hours, I'll probably just ask him if I can go ahead and play on without him.

I have to disagree with your statement.  Your comments imply that slow play equates to low scores.  If this was the case, then every tour player would be grinding it out for 6 hours.  Bradley stated "I won't hit a shot until I'm ready".  He is a professional, he shouldn't have to back off, spasm, teeter back and forth, spit on the ground, or whatever other bad habits he may have.  Figure out the shot, step up, and hit it.  Slow play will kill tournaments.

[Isaac_Newton]

MichiganMike, on 23 February 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Keegan: "All I do is visualize my shot. After that I just pick out an alignment spot.  Then I'm ready to go.  Occassionally if something doesn't feel right I might back off for a second before hitting the ball.  But overall it doesn't take much time.  I don't see what everyone is complaining about."

So Keegan gets picked on for backing away from shots but no mention of Phil and Bones speaking for minutes about draws, rounded draws, and pelz 8 irons.  Hmmmmmm?

At least golf is faster than the last 2 minutes of a basketball game.

[MichiganMike]

Isaac_Newton, on 23 February 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

So Keegan gets picked on for backing away from shots but no mention of Phil and Bones speaking for minutes about draws, rounded draws, and pelz 8 irons.  Hmmmmmm?

At least golf is faster than the last 2 minutes of a basketball game.

This thread was not intended to be about Keegan.  It was only watching him that got me thinking about how slow players view themselves.  Note I also said "hypothetical" about that above quote.  It was illustrative, nothing more.  The post is about things slow players say, not specific slow players.

[Isaac_Newton]

MichiganMike, on 23 February 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

This thread was not intended to be about Keegan.  It was only watching him that got me thinking about how slow players view themselves.  Note I also said "hypothetical" about that above quote.  It was illustrative, nothing more.  The post is about things slow players say, not specific slow players.

Prefacing your comments with "hypothetical" and then bashing Keegan is akin to using terms such as "with all due respect" or "having said that".  Like I said to my wife, "your mom is a nice person, having said that, I hope never to see her again."

But I will agree, your original post is not about Keegan Bradley.

[MichiganMike]

D

Isaac_Newton, on 23 February 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Prefacing your comments with "hypothetical" and then bashing Keegan is akin to using terms such as "with all due respect" or "having said that".  Like I said to my wife, "your mom is a nice person, having said that, I hope never to see her again."

But I will agree, your original post is not about Keegan Bradley.

Don't get wrong wrong, I'm not trying to play the "all due respect" angle.  I have no issue saying he's agonizing slow.  Not pulling any punches there.  But, again, not the intent of this thread...

[jabrch]

I'm for birforcation here...

On tour, I don't care how slow these guys are.  There are MILLIONS of dollars that ride on single strokes.  Get it right!

On Saturday, at the local Muni, move your a$$ - I'm tired of waiting for you to plumb bob your 5 footer from three different angles.

[MichiganMike]

How about this for a compromise around slow play on tour.  We fans won't get so worked up over players taking extra time over a shot potentially worth a lot of money.  And in return, the networks will use the extra time to show more players than just the 2 leaders and Tiger.  Fair?

Edited by MichiganMike, 23 February 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[teejaywhy]

CallawayLefty, on 23 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

...
I guess my point is that in a tournament where it's all the line, I can't really fault somebody for doing what he needs to do to make it happen the way he wants it to.  

"Language of a Slow Player"

[blink3665]

jabrch, on 23 February 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm for birforcation here...

On tour, I don't care how slow these guys are.  There are MILLIONS of dollars that ride on single strokes.  Get it right!

On Saturday, at the local Muni, move your a$$ - I'm tired of waiting for you to plumb bob your 5 footer from three different angles.

Perfect!

[SurfDuffer]

I've got to admit that one of the things I struggle with is getting over the ball and not stepping back when something feels wrong in my set up.  I never back off and start over.  It tends to happen a couple of times a round where I adjust my set-up over the ball and it never works out good.  It is better to step back and re-start.  Keegan Bradley on the other hand is flat out ridiculous.  I counted last week as he backed off 7 yes 7 times before hitting a 140 yard shot.

[Vindog]

we all gonna die

[CarloGolfer]

Keegan Bradley wn the PGA championship. He can do whatever he wants.

99% of slow play on public courses is the result of poor course management coupled with an inability to be  ready when it's your turn, not so much pre-shot routines.

[larrybud]

There's zero reason to talk about slow play on the PGA tour until the PGA actually does something about it.

Until then, they can take as long as they want.  If the PGA doesn't have their panties in a bunch, why should we?

[stonyman]

It seems to me with all the complaining about slow play you guys still keep watching. Have any of you guys that complain about slow play on the tour actually adjusted your watching habits? I usually try to avoid things that annoy the hell out of me.

I am with the group that says millions are on the line take your time and feel comfortable with your shot, it is your job so you better make sure you have it right.

[paulshack]

CarloGolfer, on 23 February 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Keegan Bradley wn the PGA championship. He can do whatever he wants.

99% of slow play on public courses is the result of poor course management coupled with an inability to be ready when it's your turn, not so much pre-shot routines.

incase people missed it, there ya go guys. /discussion.

you know that guy.. trying to tell you something (that you dont give a crap about in the first place) BEFORE his shot. keep it for in the cart or moving to your next shot..

[lukesmurf59]

PGA Tour pros can take all the time they need as long as they don't go well over the clock.  If they were smart they'd do what Phil and Bones do.  The clock starts when the player reaches the ball.  If their group is on the clock, Phil walks slow and Bones runs to the ball.  Bones has the entire shot analyzed and figured out by the time Phil gets to the ball.  They get off the clock quickly, sometimes while taking extra time.  Not that Phil and Bones are slow, they only do this when the whole group is slow like at the 99 US Open.  Anyone remember Bones racing around the back nine while Phil sauntered down the fairways at like 2mph?  Clever.  Oh and I wish Phil and Bones would discuss every shot like that, I love hearing them talk about strategy, it's so cool!

In regards to the slow guy in the casual round, do what I do, if he's taking too much time don't wait for him.  I'll tee off before he's done putting out.  hit your approach and wait at the green while he fiddles w/ his 4th and 5th club change in the fairway.  Seeing me checking my watch at the green while they're still in the fairway usually gets them moving right along by the 3rd or 4th hole.  I never ask anyone to move faster, just do the Hogan glare at them while they take their 8th practice swing and adjust the tee height for the fourth time.  Be careful if he's better than you though.  If you're the better player, they like to try speed up w/ you, but if he's 3up, don't rush him so obviously, just subtly, doesn't come off that good when you rush a guy who is beating you.

[madmaclive]

Keegan's approach, and therefore, probably the same approach that a lot of pro's have is exactly what most sports psychologists teach.  They teach backing off shots.  I was told that during practice rounds and casual rounds I should back off as many shots as I could, just to practice.  Visualize every shot and only hit the shot when I was completely ready to hit the shot.  

As far as the slow play goes, come play in a professional event.  It probably averages a little over 5 hours.  Sometimes its 6, sometimes its four and a half.  And we almost always use carts.  

Personally, I enjoy playing slowly.  On a normal day I easily fit into the group at my course that plays in 3 1/2 hours.  When it comes tournament time, I switch to tournament mode and am comfortable with the 5 hour round because it gives me more than enough time to be comfortable with every shot.  My personal opinion is that is what we see on Tour.  Guys that are simply taking the time to be comfortable with what they're trying to accomplish.  Not everyone steps up and plays the shot immediately like Brandt Snedeker.  Not everyone takes forever like Ben Crane.

[anth]

MichiganMike, on 23 February 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

How about this for a compromise around slow play on tour.  We fans won't get so worked up over players taking extra time over a shot potentially worth a lot of money.  And in return, the networks will use the extra time to show more players than just the 2 leaders and Tiger.  Fair?

Love it.  But I think you're being generous with the 2 leaders PLUS Tiger.  It's mostly just the latter.

Watching the PGA Tour in particular is painful.  

Here's 10 seconds of a caddie/player discussion. (10)

Here's 10 seconds stalking the putt. (20)

Here's another 10 being lined up for the putt by the caddie. (30)

Here's 15 seconds gone with practice strokes.  (45)

Here's 5 seconds shuffling his feet.  (50)

He's over the putt now.... (55)

Oooooh, just slides by.  (60)

Repeat process.  

But before that, here's a word from our sponsor about longer lasting erections...

How about something different for a change?  Just as a trial?  How about we play one tournament a year where all practice strokes are banned, and all discussions between player and caddie are banned.  Just hand the club over and swing.  No picking the grass for wind direction.  No plumb-bobbing.  No Camilo Villegas spiderman routine.

What do you think will happen to:

1. The time it takes to play a round?
2. The TV coverage?
3. The scores?

[puttingmatt]

I am starting to think Keegan is becoming like Sergio
was a few years back !!! Fidgiting, Over thinks the shot,
Backs out of set ups, And then misses !!! Seems like
his spitting is a nerves related involuntary response .

Edited by puttingmatt, 24 February 2012 - 12:02 AM.

[jwclubbie]

eric_b, on 23 February 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

CallawayLefty, on 23 February 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I agree with the general idea that slow play sucks and people need to speed it up.  But if you're in a TOURNAMENT, especially one with a million bucks on the line and your future career at stake - and I'm in no way talking about a casual round with your buddies - what other answer is there but to be selfish?  You're playing for your livelihood, it's absolutely all on the line on every single shot.  And it's not like Phil Mickelson and Bill Haas have somewhere else to be that Keegan is keeping them away from.  They're all pros, they know what they're getting in to.  

I was talking to my club guy about a guy he knows who made it to the 2nd stage of q school this year and got paired with some knucklehead who was playing a 6 hour round and really holding everybody up.  The guy got a bit perturbed and ended up missing his mark to advance to the final stage by a shot because of some loose shots on the way in.  I asked how the guy who took forever did...made it by 1 shot.  

I guess my point is that in a tournament where it's all the line, I can't really fault somebody for doing what he needs to do to make it happen the way he wants it to.  If I get paired with Keegan anytime soon on a Saturday at the local muni and he's taking 6 hours, I'll probably just ask him if I can go ahead and play on without him.

I agree....but only to a certain extent.  

They're playing for millions of dollars thanks for sponsors....and sponsors are there because of viewers....and viewers are they because they enjoy watching golf....if you're playing slow affects the enjoyment of the game....which it does....for golfwrx members anyway.....then it's still a problem.

In addition, the tour does have a limit on time to play a round....which is why they put people "on the clock".....sure, they don't do anything about guys who are on the clock....but it's still a rule violation.

Whether you're playing for millions of dollars....or you paid your green fee just like everyone else....so you feel entitled to take as long as you want.....doesn't change the fact that there's a big world around you, and you might be ticking some people off....

Get over it. Are you a tour player? Prob not. Don't like watching? Change the channel. They are playing for their livelihoods. I'm sure at your job whatever you do, when something is important you take extra time and precaution to make sure your work looks good and you don't look like an idiot. Same with tour players. That is their body of work. Also, as long as a slow player isn't holding up his group or the ones behind them, what do you have to whine about. Whose the selfish one now? You, because he is holding YOUR round up. "Their is a big world around you ya know"(just quoting you) people approach the game and speed of play differently. Sorry everyone can't play to your liking.

Get the heck over it.

Edited by jwclubbie, 24 February 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[jwclubbie]

CarloGolfer, on 23 February 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Keegan Bradley wn the PGA championship. He can do whatever he wants.

99% of slow play on public courses is the result of poor course management coupled with an inability to be f@cking ready when it's your turn, not so much pre-shot routines.

I completely agree! Guys trying to hit hero shots, not ready to putt, forgot their putter blah blah.