53 replies to this topic

[GooseHook]

What revelation(s) led to a breakthrough in your putting?  Was it a routine, equipment change, attitude adjustment?  I'll start with mine:

Weight.  I realized that heavy putters were ideal for me, and they probably all felt too light because I was playing a short putter the whole time.  Some trial and error, and now I have a 33", 370g head putter with a 40g counterweight.  It pretty much swings itself!

Attitude-wise, it really took me some stiff iron shots to get me going in the putting department.  For some reason, it took me forever to make  birdies on par 4s.  After a couple of near hole-outs, finally making a birdie putt on a par 4 wasn't such a big deal...mentally I knew anything was possible.

[browne11]

I always played blade putters and was a pretty terrible putter. One day I picked up my buddies 2ball. He's righty and I'm lefty. Sunk 3 10 footers in a row right handed and haven't looked back. I play only big ugly putters now (not right handed tho).

Edited by browne11, 21 February 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Triple Diamond]

I set up with my hands at my zipper.    At impact I make sure my hands are starting to release at my zipper instead of "pushing" the handle towards my forward thigh.  Releasing the putter head also imparts a bit of a hook spin that gets the ball rolling quicker/truer.    IMO

[Solutions Etcetera]

Two things for me…

1.) Shorter is better. Get fit!

2.) I have my own putting grip which is unique. Hard to explain… left hand only has last 2 fingers on the putter; right hand is conventional grip; left thumb, index and ring fingers wrap around my right hand above the wrist.

[RightHandRough]

The iPing was a big eye opener for me.  I realized that I was playing the wrong putter set up and my hands were more active than I had thought.  Bigger grip and center shaft putter and I'm much more consistent now.  Great tool to keep tabs on your stroke.

[hebron1427]

GooseHook, on 21 February 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

What revelation(s) led to a breakthrough in your putting?  Was it a routine, equipment change, attitude adjustment?  I'll start with mine:

Weight.  I realized that heavy putters were ideal for me, and they probably all felt too light because I was playing a short putter the whole time.  Some trial and error, and now I have a 33", 370g head putter with a 40g counterweight.  It pretty much swings itself!

Attitude-wise, it really took me some stiff iron shots to get me going in the putting department.  For some reason, it took me forever to make  birdies on par 4s.  After a couple of near hole-outs, finally making a birdie putt on a par 4 wasn't such a big deal...mentally I knew anything was possible.

understanding roll. my buddy put a line on the ball to show me how i was cutting across the ball at impact. once i got it rolling consistently off the face, all of my reads were perfect, so i started holing more putts. went from 34.5 putts per roudn to 30.5.

[ZombieDave]

I have a home made one of these http://www.yesgolf.co.uk/item_111.htm that I made with a plastic car toy track, and use to show the break on a sloping putt.  It's proved to be a real eye opener and helped me to read greens much better.

[lobub]

Getting a Seemore FGP mallet  from the BST and finally have a consistent setup every time.
First round with it at Torrey South and I birdied the first 2 holes - no joke!

[GatorBait]

No mechanical thoughts and rely entirely on feel.

[nole149]

My moment was realizing that my stance was too narrow.  Widened my stance and "boom" instant distance control!

[Delman]

Started playing the ball...2 balls forward of center in my stance. It put the sweet spot on the ball nearly every time...we all know how important that is in putting.

[indyvai]

The forward press using a flow neck... just feels right...

[craz-e]

Probably the closest I have come is not trying to hard to make all my putts just relax and stroke the ball.

[onafriday]

For me, the iPing app has been great - both from a putter fitting aspect and just fun to practice with.

While it's not the same as a full on fitting, i find it to be pretty good.

I'm a 'strong arc' according to ping, and have been playing face balanced mallets for years - but my peripheral vision has always given me a hunch i arc more than i thought.

Moved to a two down putter with minimal offset, and am embracing the arc.

So far so good.

Yeah.  iPing app data has been 'ah-ha' for me.

Edited by onafriday, 13 March 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[pkshooter]

Mine was that my eyes were not even close to being over the ball.  I learned that during a putter fitting and they have you place the ball on a mirror.

[RobGW]

I had a fitting that included video from behind, the side, and above. I thought I was straight back-straight through. Turns out I am an arc, in to out to in. Knowing that changed the putter I use, changed my thinking, and dropped my putt count by 5 per round.

[cwglum]

2 a-ha moments for me:

1.  when an individual of lower intelligence traded in his virtually brand new camerion studio select 1.5 right in front of me ... and into the hands of my good friend behind the shop desk, Thank you sir for your bad decision, I have benefited for the past 3 seasons from this 1/2 priced "used" putter.

2. taking lessons with a good pro who kept it simple ... stance, alignment and path.


I'm an arc putter ... when putting poorly have a tendancy to set up closed, take the putter back too far inside and block it out to the right.  So now, after practicing speed and lag putts, I spend a good portion of my practice putting on square alignment and path back and through.

It's all about knowing what you need to work on.  Get a good pro to help you figure out in 5 min what would take you all summer on your own to figure out (if ever).

[8thehardway]

I've had three AHA moments - coming across a Scotty Cameron Futura, upgrading to heavier mallet (Tom Slighter's Needle) and finally adopting Geoff Mangrum's putting technique. The particular putters are unimportant, except to say my own quirks were compensated for by two unconventional designs and an unconventional technique so my guiding principle is to keep an open mind and if you find something that feels really good, keep practicing.

[mozgolf]

Stopped aiming the alignment aid and making multiple practice strokes. Line it up, step up, and roll it, make far more putts and the added bonus of freaking out fastidious slow putters

[danattherock]

GooseHook, on 21 February 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

What revelation(s) led to a breakthrough in your putting?

Great thread



We need to spend more time becoming better putters and less time shopping for putters.


My breakthrough moment was learning the importance of a flat left wrist, hand leading the club head through impact. Same in putting as the full swing, it got my wristy action out of my stroke. The wrist breaking down killed my putting and especially my distance control. I am so good now I don't recognize myself from years past. It all started when I read Bobby Clampett's book, "The Impact Zone". This book also helped my full swing more than anything else. But my putting breakthrough came from the same book, first chapter.


And to be fair, one of the things that helped me most was switching to Pingman and Iomic midsize (standard or opus, not absolute) grips. These grips allow me to get the feedback from the ball, simply put vibrations, that I need to gauge distance control. I used to use jumbo Winn grips that were soft and I could never feel anything. I am a big guy, but I insist on using smallish firm putter grips. I must have tried 20 putter grips over the years till I found what I liked. Don't underestimate having the right putter grip.


And how could I forget, a SAM putting lab evaluation. I spent a day with our own Puttingdoctor (Glen Coombe) in South Carolina. A putting lesson is money well spent. If that time be spent with an instructor who owns a SAM putting lab, all the better. Can't fix what you don't know is broken. A SAM putting eval is a truly eye opening experience.




-Dan

Edited by danattherock, 21 February 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[danattherock]

Solutions Etcetera, on 21 February 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Two things for me…

1.) Shorter is better. Get fit!

2.) I have my own putting grip which is unique. Hard to explain… left hand only has last 2 fingers on the putter; right hand is conventional grip; left thumb, index and ring fingers wrap around my right hand above the wrist.

Agree. I am 6'6" and use a 34" putter. Never putted better and I used to insist on 35-36.5" putters.

Till I read this....




The Long and Short of Putter Length and Lie

by Geoff Mangum

Geoff Mangum's PuttingZone™ Instruction

http://puttingzone.com
geoff@puttingzone.com

ZipTip: EQUIPMENT: The Long and Short of Putter Length and Lie

Don't let the putter wag the puttee; figure out a setup that is best for a good stroke, and then fit the putter to your needs, or else you'll get stuck with "average golferitis."

***

What difference does it make if the putter is 35 inches long with a "standard" lie of 71 degrees? Isn't this about what EVERYONE uses? It's surely what almost ALL the putter manufacturers peddle, so what could possibly be the question? The long and short of it is: putters are NOT designed for optimal putting, but for buyers of putters, and by far most buyers of putters are NOT too good at putting. The dirty little secret is: Many many times, it's not the puttee -- it's the putter.

What's Stock.

Putters in golf shops all look the same length, and nearly the same lie. So-called "standard" putters are 35 inches long with a "lie" of 71 degrees. Many manufacturers typically offer lengths from 33 to 37 inches with lies varying from 4 degrees more upright than 71 degrees to 4 degrees flatter.

Does anyone recall the advice that the golfer's setup and technique should dictate the putter length and lie, rather than allowing the putter specs to dictate technique? The dog wags the tail! But in golf, the putter wags the puttee!

More and more manufacturers are coming around, though. Karsten Manufacturing, makers of the popular Ping putters, cautions golfers to get fitted for their putters, and makes lengths available from 30 to 42 inches, with lie adjustments 8 degrees either way off "standard." Zevo also makes custom fitted putters. Other custom putters can be found.

What's Wrong -- Too Long!

Does a 35 inch putter work best for the average golfer? The average US male is typically between 5 feet 10 inches tall and 6 feet tall. Standing upright, the hands typically hang so the wrists match the crotch in height above the ground or the inseam on his pants, and the typical inseam length is between 30 and 33 inches. The WRISTS of almost all male golfers naturally hang 30 to 33 inches above the ground, so almost all golfers can grip a 35 inch putter WITHOUT BENDING OVER AT ALL. This is certainly the case with 6-foot tall males and is even more the case with anyone shorter. So this applies to about 90 percent of all male (and almost all female) golfers.

Crooked Elbows or a Flat Lie with Hands Out Away and Eyes Inside the Ball. A 35 inch putter causes problems! If you have a 35 inch putter and place your hands on the grip BEFORE you bend over at address, your bending will necessarily cause your elbows to flex as your torso lowers your shoulders but your hands stay the same height. The arms have to collapse (elbows outward) to accommodate the shorter distance between shoulder height and hands height. The only other way to bend at address and keep the elbows from going out to the sides is to extend the putterhead farther from your body and stance as you bend, so your hands lower in height as your shoulders lower.

What's wrong with that (the tail wagging the dog)? Bent elbows during putting require upper arm and forearm tension to control the position of the elbows to keep the overall shape of the arms-hands-putter system constant during the stroke. This tension, even if maintained steadily, translates into added grip pressure and detracts focus from more important aspects of the stroke. A failure to pay attention to this problem leaves excess "play" in the system, so the system can vary in length going back and coming through in the stroke, making solid consistent contact very problematic. The great Leo Diegel in the 1920s took care of this problem by poking both elbows out sharply, in a style since known as "Diegeling."

In the same way, extending the putterhead away from your stance also causes defects in technique. First, this forces the eyes back from the ball, so your targeting suffers from defective sighting angles that cause misperceptions of the target location. Eyes inside typically cause the target to appear to the right of its actual location.

Second, this forces the hands farther away from the thighs and flattens the lie angle of the putter. The net effect is you cannot simply move back and through in the stroke, with the putter hanging from your light grip; instead you have to lift and carry the putter back, and this adds a requirement of constant tension to your arms and grip.

Third, the extended putterhead with eyes inside the ball forces a "gating" stroke path back around to the inside and then forward around back to square, with a follow through forward and back around again. Good luck having a square face at the precise instant of contact! In the 1920s and 1930s, Walter Hagen, Horton Smith, Bobby Locke and others tried to deal with this problem by "hooding" the left wrist to try to eliminate the gating effect -- letting the left wrist fold or break on the backstroke and then gradually returning the wrist to square as the putterhead approached impact, to keep the putterhead going straight back and through on a single line.

So what happens if you bend BEFORE assuming your grip on the putter, allowing your hands to sink down the club as your shoulders lower? Try it and see. Your hands will slide 5 or 6 inches down the handle before you feel you are in the old familiar address position. And you are probably at the very bottom of the grip material on the handle, or perhaps a tad onto the metal with your fingers.

The message should be pretty clear -- ALMOST ALL GOLFERS OUGHT TO HAVE A PUTTER THAT IS AT LEAST 2-3 INCHES SHORTER THAN "STANDARD" IF NOT MORE.

If you currently use a 35 inch putter, try letting your hands slip down the putter as you bend before taking hold of the grip. Your head and eyes should remain over the ball, your arms hang naturally without tension and elbow "play," your hands hang naturally beneath the shoulders, the putterhead is not artificially forced away from your body, and your stroke path does not have a huge "gating" effect.

What's Wrong -- Too Flat a Lie!

If the putter length is too long, you either have the elbows crooked or the putterhead out away from you. Neither is good. The "lie" of the putter is determined by the height of your hands above the surface at address and by the horizontal distance from your hands out to the ball. The purpose of the lie is to set the sole of the putter flat on the surface, given the position of the hands back and above the ball. If you have a hands position that results in either the toe angling up or the heel angling up, your lie is incorrect. Such a lie also alters the sweetspot location on your putterface, so beware.

The "lie" is the angle between the two lines that meet at the ball: the line back to your feet and the line up along the shaft of the putter. That's where the "standard" 71 degrees comes in. But this is just odd jargon. The real point is that the shaft angles back FROM VERTICAL (90 degrees) by 19 degrees with the "standard" lie (90 - 71 = 19).

What's wrong with that? Well, the geometry is pretty straightforward: a typical 6 foot golfer using a putter 19 degrees back off vertical cannot possibly place his eyes directly over the ball unless he bends WAY LOW (with his hands going far down the metal or else his elbows point out to the sides). The reason is that the typical horizontal distance back from the eyes to the shoulder sockets and hands is pretty constant for people, and is around 8 to 10 inches. With the eyes over the ball, a shaft running up from the ball at a 19 degree angle meets the plane of the hands 8 inches back at a mere height of 23 inches. On a 35 inch putter, in order to put and keep your eyes directly over the ball, your palms must be gripping metal or your elbows must crook nearly 6 inches outward or inward.

Even if you can find a grip height that does not cause undue elbow "play," AND you can keep your eyes over the ball, if the lie is too far back off vertical you still have the problem of having to support the putterhead during the back and through motion with some lifting tension in the arms and hands. This requires the hands to float away from you as you lift slightly to keep the sole hovering above the turf, out from the hands' natural hanging line beneath the shoulders. And you still have the "gating" problem for solid, online, consistent impact. This makes your grip and forearm tension too tight and any lessening of this level of muscle tone during the stroke results in the putter head drifting in towards your feet.

As a test, lift the putter just off the surface and then relax your arms and hands. If the putterhead drops back towards your feet, your lie is too flat. In effect, the putter is trying to get to a more upright position by falling back towards the line straight down below your shoulder sockets.

So What's Good?

If you are 6 feet tall or under and believe in the following statements, a "standard" putter is very likely causing you problems in your putting:

• The setup should be comfortable;
• The eyes should be directly above the ball;
• The grip should be relaxed without tension in the arms;
• There should not be excess "play" in the system during the stroke;
• The putter sole should rest flat on the ground or just above the ground;
• The stroke path should remain pretty close to on line, without "gating," especially in the foot before and after impact.

To putt with these principles, you cannot allow the putter to dictate your position or technique.

To determine your proper length and lie, you should assume a setup position with a comfortable back and neck bend so the eyes are directly over the ball and your arms are hanging naturally and completely beneath your shoulders. Then you need two numbers: A) the horizontal distance from the centers of your palms out to the ball, and B) the vertical height of the centers of your palms above the ground. Try holding a yardstick horizontally out above the ball and looking straight down with eyes above the ball to get A. With these two numbers, your length and lie are simple geometry.

A right triangle is formed with vertices at three points: the center of the palms, the ball, and a point directly above the ball horizontally out from the center of the palms. "A" is the distance from the hands horizontally out to the point above the ball. "B" is the distance from there to the ground, which is identical to the distance from the center of the palms to the ground. The angle at the ball of this triangle is the offset from vertical of the shaft.

The Lie. The number A divided by B gives the "tangent" of the offset from vertical -- a simple number indicating the constant ration of these two sides for this unique angle at the ball. The inverse of this "tangent" (called the "arctangent") gives the angle in degrees offset from vertical. Manufacturers describe lie as the angle up to the shaft from the ground, so your "lie" is 90 degrees less this arctangent number. The formula is Lie = 90 minus Arctangent(A/B).

The Length. The length to the palms is the hypotenuse (longest side) of the 90 degree triangle having vertices at the ball, hands, and a point out from the hands directly above the ball. The two shorter sides of the triangle are A and B. From the Pythagoreum Theorem, (A times A) plus (B times B) = hypoteneuse times hypoteneuse. Or, the hypoteneuse length is the square root of the sum of the two sides squared. Since this goes only to the centers of the palms, add about 4 inches to get the full length of your putter. The formula is Length = Square Root(A*A + B*B) + 4 inches.

Two Examples. A golfer is 6 feet tall and when he assumes his address position, his hands hang 27 inches above the surface (6 inches beneath his crotch, with the center of his palms about halfway down his thighs toward his knees), and the horizontal distance from his hands out to the ball and his eye line over the ball is 9 inches. His lie should be 18.4 degrees off vertical or 71.6 degrees. His putter length should be 32.5 inches.

Another golfer is 5 feet 6 inches tall and when he assumes his address position, his hands hang 25 inches above the surface (about 5 inches below the crotch, just above the knees midway down the thighs), and the horizontal distance from his hands out to the ball is 8 inches. His lie should be 17.7 degrees off vertical or 72.3 degrees. His putter length should be 30.2 inches.

In both cases, the putter is considerably shorter than stock and the lie is a little upright. The shorter the golfer, the more each of these is true. Unless you are very tall or have difficulty bending, stock putters very likely are hurting your game.

You can calculate your length and lie now, using this scientific calculator: Calc98

LIE: To get the ARCTANGENT, just type in the ratio then click Shift then Tan. The result in the display is the angle off vertical. For the lie angle up from the ground, the calculator sequence is A, /, B, =, Shift, aTan, MIn, 90, -, MR, =.

LENGTH: The calculator sequence is A, x^2, +, B, x^2, =, SQR, +, 4,=. This gives the total length of the putter.

CAVEAT: "Perfect" calculations tend to be too cute by half, and real golfers seldom set up on the course as "perfectly" as they try to set up in a fitting session, so don't go as low as the numbers suggest -- go as low as the numbers PLUS 1-3 inches of "extra" so the golfer has some flexibility to setup taller on occasion. Cutting a putter down is a one-way street, so don't go too far all at once. The 5' 6" tall golfer in the example should probably try a 31" to 32" putter for a while first, not a 30.2" putter, and the 6' 0" tall golfer should try a 34" putter.

Make This Part of Your Game.

Shorter putters and more upright putters should be the rule of the day. Oftentimes, poor putting is caused by using putters that other poor putters choose to use. Manufacturers are in the business of maximizing sales, not improving your game. They sell putters mostly to poor putters, as the average golfer score is well above 90. These putters are designed to fit into this majority technique. Don't be a go-along sucker! Get fitted for a REAL putter under the guidance of someone who knows how to putt very well. If you can't find a custom fitted putter, take a hacksaw and cut down a "standard" putter and get it regripped. The long and short of putter lengths and lies is that you won't ever get rid of these problems until the dog starts wagging the tail!

© 2001 Geoff Mangum. All rights reserved. Reproduction for non-commercial purposes in unaltered form, with accompanying source credit and URL, is expressly granted. For more tips and information on putting, including a free 10,000+ database of putting lore and the Web's only newsletter on putting (also free), visit Geoff's website at http://www.puttingzone.com, or email him directly at geoff@puttingzone.com.

[caller]

see the line and imagine the putt.... then "roll the ball, not hitting it"

It has done wonder for me for a while

[BENNYSUPREME]

For me:  I got fitted.  I use a lie of 67* at 34 inches mallet SEEMORE.  I would have went with 33 or 33.5 but I felt like I was putting to much strain on the back.  After that I changed my grip,  over lapping two fingers and placing the thumbs side by side.  Lastly I started a routine:  take make grip, look at the hole, three practice strokes, put the club behind the ball, inch the feet a little closer, look at the cup one more time, and then roll the ball.

I have found that my mind wonders a lot less and if it does I'm able to step back more often.  Since I have started the routine I have only had to step away about a dozen times.  Out of that dozen times when re addressing the ball I have made all of the putts but 3, 75% not bad.  I have even had people say I wish I could step away like that.

[DNice26]

I had a bit of an aha moment when I switched to the Superstroke slim grip......ridiculous how much it helps take the small muscles out of your stroke.  

My second aha moment is when I realized how much the "TOE HANG" of a putter can impact your stroke and comfort level with a putter.  I would SERIOUSLY implore people to understand the difference between face balanced, slight toe hang and heavy toe hang putters......might just be the difference between missing the 5 footer and drilling it.

[mizuno4ever]

going from a blade (loss of confidence)
to a mallet putter (easy peasy)
back to a blade to learn what true putting was all about.....

[SilverBullets]

Switched to a blade, forward press, stopped thinking and putts strafed draining... Confidence went up and ever sense I feel like I can make every putt I stand over

[danattherock]

DNice26, on 21 February 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I had a bit of an aha moment when I switched to the Superstroke slim grip......ridiculous how much it helps take the small muscles out of your stroke.  

My second aha moment is when I realized how much the "TOE HANG" of a putter can impact your stroke and comfort level with a putter.  I would SERIOUSLY implore people to understand the difference between face balanced, slight toe hang and heavy toe hang putters......might just be the difference between missing the 5 footer and drilling it.

As does a very light grip pressure. This was a big find for me to learn just how light I can hold a putter. Feel improved exponentially.

[SteveL1]

For me the biggest was moving from a toe hang, heel shafted to face balanced, center shafted. The center shaft helped tremdously on alignment and the face balanced head works with my SBST stroke. HUGE diference. Other minor things are oversized grip and shorter length. Down from 35" to 33".

[dwmiller19]

First revelation, when a buddy who used to play on the mini tours casually said to me "you know, if I was using that putter (a two ball srt at the time) I would have a hard time not watching the putter head move instead of focusing on the ball."  That's when I realized I was so caught up in the path of the putter, I wasn't making a good stroke.  Since then, I've actually owned nothing but plumbers neck anser 2 style heads to minimize what I'm looking at.

Second revelation, after I read several books (The Art of Putting, Dave Pelz' Putting Bible, all of Dr. Bob's books, Zen Putting) and made an attitude adjustment as well as some technique changes.

Third revelation, I started practicing.

[mickw]

3 eye-openers...1. Scotty Studio Style - the GSS insert adds to help make it the best feeling putter I've used in 30 years 2. Slight forward press - gives me a repeatable position of confidence to begin my stroke 3. 35" putter - up from 34'' and it has relieved noticeable stress on my lower back. These 3 things occurring in the last few years have had me putting better than I ever have .The first couple of seasons when my stroke vastly improved, it felt particularly nice seeing putts dropping on a regular basis...especially the all important 10' and under must have's.

Edited by mickw, 22 February 2012 - 01:06 AM.