1213 replies to this topic

[flopper]

thesponge, on 18 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Man it is hard to get a straight answer here. Let's try simple yes or no. Hogan explained in the video you posted that he moves his lower body first in the down swing and allows his upper body to follow. Are you saying that he did not actually do this and this is why he didn't understand his swing?

What you want I cant give you reasons listed above in previous post.
That is the answer. When I have ensured what I see and describe match, I get back to this.
Might be years tho.
I dont answer precisely unless I know what I describe matches what I see, I am not a theory guy I am a science factual evidence guy.
I dont speculate and offers theory and guesswork. Then again I am more interested in the elite performance of the game of golf, not the swing. I find swing talk pretty much boring. your question is such
Once you understand how to position yourself for a throw you can play golf at a level few managed in the history of golf.
and besides I only teach hands on in person, anything else leaves people trying to fit it into previous preconceptions as seen here in this thread blocking out what I wrote. Unelss you do your homework, I simply dont respond to any new questions.

Look at squish posts, all the info is there.
he dont need to do more than copy and paste his previous posts due to the questions are the same.

Edited by flopper, 18 November 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[JPeacockGolf]

I may be wrong but I don't think squish ever said that hogan didn't understand his swing. You did, in fact you have said it over and over.  Then I ask why and you can not say.  You said the right hip moves towards the ball in a traditional swing which is incorrect, I ask for clarification and get ignored.  There is a pattern emerging here.

It's all good, you do seem to know the Austin swing well. My friendly suggestion would be to leave the bashing of other swing methods out of the discussion. It's obvious that you have some common misconceptions in this area. It took me years of study to get a firm understanding of how a traditional (classic not modern)swing works. I used to have the exact same misunderstandings that you do.  You prooved this to me in your videos. If these misconceptions are seen as fact, the traditional swing seems impossible. Hence the reason you can not imagine why anyone would want to use such a method.  People are built differently. I see the Austin method as a perfectly legitimate method. It's just a little different than the traditional method.  The hardest part of a traditional swing to grasp is the clearing of the left side WITHOUT lunging the right side at the ball. The Austin method takes this out of the equation and uses the spine as a lever instead of the hips. Not what I would recommend but to each his own.

I challenge you to take a fresh look at hogan, mahan, watney, etc..... and reevaluate your understanding of this type of swing. If you understand that the spine starts at the tail bone and rotation happens at the hip joints, you may come to a different conclusion.

Edited by thesponge, 18 November 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[vision541]

marte, on 17 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Neil & Vision & Flopper

Neil said....""Squish is correct - one move and that move is the squish...BUT...you have to do it correctly...""

Everyone probably views "correct"  differently.  In my case I aim my squish to an area just an inch or 2 directly in front of the ball.  If standing in the middle of a clockface looking down with 12 oclock off my nose I squish to just left of the 12. -----0------------------------------------
Where abouts do you guys aim your squish?

Hi:
I have found that if I squish my QL down the line I pull, if I squish more out to the ball I am hitting a nice draw....So I will post right and allow my right hip to be at 4:00   then squish going down and out to 10:00....that seems to work for me.....just make sure you keep your head steady and over your right foot/leg till impact...

[vision541]

thesponge, on 18 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I may be wrong but I don't think squish ever said that hogan didn't understand his swing. You did, in fact you have said it over and over.  Then I ask why and you can not say.  You said the right hip moves towards the ball in a traditional swing which is incorrect, I ask for clarification and get ignored.  There is a pattern emerging here.

It's all good, you do seem to know the Austin swing well. My friendly suggestion would be to leave the bashing of other swing methods out of the discussion. It's obvious that you have some common misconceptions in this area. It took me years of study to get a firm understanding of how a traditional (classic not modern)swing works. I used to have the exact same misunderstandings that you do.  You prooved this to me in your videos. If these misconceptions are seen as fact, the traditional swing seems impossible. Hence the reason you can not imagine why anyone would want to use such a method.  People are built differently. I see the Austin method as a perfectly legitimate method. It's just a little different than the traditional method.  The hardest part of a traditional swing to grasp is the clearing of the left side WITHOUT lunging the right side at the ball. The Austin method takes this out of the equation and uses the spine as a lever instead of the hips. Not what I would recommend but to each his own.

I challenge you to take a fresh look at hogan, mahan, watney, etc..... and reevaluate your understanding of this type of swing. If you understand that the spine starts at the tail bone and rotation happens at the hip joints, you may come to a different conclusion.

Just curious ...it seems like you have also studied the traditional and classic swings....and you make a distinction between the classic and traditional if I have that correct...which instructors have you found that satisfy your criteria...

[flopper]

vision541, on 19 November 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Hi:
I have found that if I squish my QL down the line I pull, if I squish more out to the ball I am hitting a nice draw....So I will post right and allow my right hip to be at 4:00   then squish going down and out to 10:00....that seems to work for me.....just make sure you keep your head steady and over your right foot/leg till impact...

Same thing different perceptions will most likely NOT help your own by knowing someone elses.
If you keep the variable the same, the difference will be the input of feedback you recive and what you test that agasint, and unless the reference is the same you cant improve.
Once you understand how that works you can find your own swing and own it and play golf.
The above question about how you percive what you do is just another search for a secret someone else might have, or as I like to say guesswork and magic.

Swing to target, get ball there.
or you could get stuck trying to think you understand the difference in perception is real.

[JPeacockGolf]

I would put traditional and classic in the same category and modern in the other category. The biggest difference between the two is the way the hips are used. The classic view would be that the pelvis turn on top of the hip joints which causes the rest of the upper body to turn with it. The club is tossed back by the turning of the body and gravity and momentum drive the swing on the way back down.  I would call this a field type of swing,  the body uses the weight of the club head kind of like you would use the weight of an ax when chopping down the tree. Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan are great examples of this.

The modern swing sees the lower body as more of a base for the upper body to swing on top of. the hip turn is somewhat restricted and torque is built in the core. The club is taken back with the hands and shoulders and the lower body is used for resistance against the upper body muscles. This would be more of an X factor type swing. This swing is more mechanical than the classic swing.  I would say Ryan Moore and Charles Howell are pretty good examples of the modern swing.

As far as instructors go, Shawn Clement is really good at explaining the classic swing. The modern swing I do not study a whole lot anymore so I'm not exactly sure which teachers would be best for that. I know Jim McLean was a big X factor guy so that would probably be a good place to look.

[flopper]

vision541, on 19 November 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Just curious ...it seems like you have also studied the traditional and classic swings....and you make a distinction between the classic and traditional if I have that correct...which instructors have you found that satisfy your criteria...

They are all basically clueless.
One of the better ones, Monte for example demonstrate here the hip turn.(youtube clip)
No power, two forces to balance and its not the hip that turns its the pelvis.
Now, Monte can hit it long, he won a world title 20 years ago the tube video at bottom.
He also is caught in the perception game where he discovers new things every week.
I like the guy, he is blunt and straight up and admit when he is wrong.
You can check the right heel in his long driving video and find out why he aint able to hit it so long today 20 years later. You can roll the foot it as he demonstrate but why do that since the one who did that best was Moe Norman but he hit it short also. In his heyday Moe hit it way out there but then his motion was different and do all the things I talk about but that was when he was young.

Austin support a 155mph swing, the other ways to swing does not unless you want to create injury on the way there.
people tend to be stuck in the perception game much like thesponge here, and if you stuck there and dont understand the difference is fine with me.
I just move on.

Talked to Hans yesterday and he started to get things down where is able to own his swing, once that accomplished, the zone awaits.


http://montescheinblum.wordpress.com/

[JPeacockGolf]

So vision541, to recap...... everyone is clueless except for flopper. Plan your life accordingly.

[Breeves85]

Anything X factor is a problem. As Steve Prat, who has a bachelors in kinesiology, said earlier in the thread, the spine only turn 25-35 degrees without damage. The X-factor goes against this principle by telling you the more you can seperate the further you hit it. Anything that forces you to go beyond your anatomical limitations is not a swing for life.

[JPeacockGolf]

Breeves85, on 19 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Anything X factor is a problem. As Steve Prat, who has a bachelors in kinesiology, said earlier in the thread, the spine only turn 25-35 degrees without damage. The X-factor goes against this principle by telling you the more you can seperate the further you hit it. Anything that forces you to go beyond your anatomical limitations is not a swing for life.

Yea, twisting the spine=bad idea.

[Squish]

Total relaxation of the shoulders and back muscles will do a whole lot for attaining distance.
Too much tension is a swing killer. it comes from so much talk about positions.
Studying what happens in the swing, and how it reacts does not mean force or push it into those positions.
Supple quickness vs. tense slowness is what Mike said it was about. You got to let it go.

Intresting video here.

[flopper]

Squish, on 20 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Total relaxation of the shoulders and back muscles will do a whole lot for attaining distance.
Too much tension is a swing killer. it comes from so much talk about positions.
Studying what happens in the swing, and how it reacts does not mean force or push it into those positions.
Supple quickness vs. tense slowness is what Mike said it was about. You got to let it go.

Apply force (trow) without impedence (supply quickness) allowing a natural action (joints) be created and supported without compensations.(antagonists relaxed)
Means no need to understand positions nor technique due to the swingcentrum stays stable (C7) allowing a free flowing natural evolution physics to happen.
Even a kid age 11 can do that.
be careful squish as its a concept that is to simple to grasp for the technique position minded..

[vision541]

so Flop...can you give me a few directions about how relax the shoulders and back muscles )

sorry....couldn't refuse....

Have a great Thanksgiving..

Peter

[flopper]

vision541, on 20 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

so Flop...can you give me a few directions about how relax the shoulders and back muscles )


Peter

www.intu-flow.com daily for 6 months.
no quick fix.
It will add things to your body once doing it you never stop doing it allowing you to hit it a lot longer.
I write time to time about it http://www.notnlp.com/?page_id=3698

Edited by flopper, 20 November 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[vision541]

thank you....i looked briefly at the site and plan to take some time after work to peruse...appreciate the recommendation....

P

[flopper]

vision541, on 20 November 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

thank you....i looked briefly at the site and plan to take some time after work to peruse...appreciate the recommendation....

P

Np m8
For me its been a lifesaver.
Never need to stretch nowadays and 18 months later as I done it daily allows me mobility and a painfree day.

[Squish]

vision541, on 20 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

so Flop...can you give me a few directions about how relax the shoulders and back muscles )

sorry....couldn't refuse....

Have a great Thanksgiving..

Peter

Well firing the QL allows one to relax the arms and shoulders as one performs the swinging action.
Because you are using the core muscles and not independantly swinging the hands and arms.
At address you are in a relaxed but alert ready position. The forward press is a subtle gesture of how you wish to impact.
The idea is to take it to the top then allow the muscles,  the shoulders arms and hands, to return to that position.
By simply relaxing them, it is automatic that they fall into the state one set at address.
It is counterproductive to attempt to put them into a position.

If they do not return to the position, then the pivot was wrong or C7 has moved.
It is a throwing action, so just let it go.

Hogan writes about this when he binds the humerus and femurs together with belts, to demonstrate how a pro swing action feels for the beginner.
The shoulders will lag at impact, not the hands and arms as they are winding out in an opposing clockwise manner out from center.
This backtoss allows the uncocking to create the dorsi palmar position going into impact.
That position of the hands is a reaction to the throw. The hands are not manipulated into that position.

At times, if tension creeps in, I flop the club onto the ground with loose arms shoulders and wrists.
Then I set up and take a swing.

[russc]

How much movement is allowed at the C7 vetebrae?1 ",2",none?
And how much movement is allowed at the tailbone

[Squish]

russc, on 20 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

How much movement is allowed at the C7 vetebrae?1 ",2",none?
And how much movement is allowed at the tailbone

C7 moves, nothing is perfect, but in the return swing, absoultly don't want it to move targetward.
The tailbone will stop swinging. The spine will slide and you will be over the top.
In hogans method he takes a wide stance, a lateral backshift targetward move is necessary.
In this method a narrow12 to15 inch stance allows one to swing into position without a back shift.

The tailbone swings 6 inches back then 12 inches through to finish.
At impact always want the navel ahead of C7.
This method allows one to swing into a secondary axis tilt.

[Breeves85]

to get an idea how much the tailbone swings, watch salsa or cha-cha lessons. that is the shift. It is really that small of a movement.

[flopper]

Breeves85, on 20 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

to get an idea how much the tailbone swings, watch salsa or cha-cha lessons. that is the shift. It is really that small of a movement.

Girls and boys have different pelvis arrangement if the individual is tall vs short then the difference might be so important its a marginal of a mm and it will impact the swing technique instruction due to the individual now has to swing it 11.9 inches not 12inches. Then soon a whole TPI program is developed to support that action. Its what I take note anyhow... in how the golf swing industry theory is organzied.

[megaprimatus]

Squish, on 20 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Interesting video here...

Ah, ha!  Seeing the body as a gyroscopic entity, as comprised of (potentially) multiple gyroscopic entities…

Interesting video indeed.

Edited by megaprimatus, 22 November 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[megaprimatus]

Quick digression into the history books:

Leon Foucault - well known to Squishologists as the inventor of the Foucault pendulum (1851), recognized as the inventor of - cue suspense soundtrack - the "Gyroscope" (1852). (No quibbling, now.)

So what does any of this have to do with anything? Well, probably nothing, but it is a fun fact.

Speaking of fun facts, it does not go without notice that Elmer Ambrose Sperry, inventor of the gyroscopic compass used widely on boats, planes and spaceships everywhere (Sperry Gyroscope Company) was an avid golfer. I cannot help but imagine this bright-eyed gentleman, possessed with curiosity, fervently engaged in a never-ending walking experiment regarding the gyroscopic tendencies of the golf swing.


Sperry waiting his turn at the first tee - Pinehurst (1926).

Edited by megaprimatus, 21 November 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[megaprimatus]

And, as if this generous man did not contribute enough to humanity, Sperry single-handedly invented...

...the stand bag!

Golfers with aching backs rejoice!

Edited by megaprimatus, 21 November 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[flopper]

megaprimatus, on 21 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I cannot help but imagine this bright-eyed gentleman, possessed with curiosity, fervently engaged in a never-ending walking experiment regarding the gyroscopic tendencies of the golf swing.

It likely helped him to relax and spend time with people allowing some ideas to flow.

I watched this video about the swingplane drill by a well known PGA trainer Martin hall.
http://www.golfchann...g-plane-111412/
It might be my eyes or the camera angle as I am sure she hits it way left on plane.

When your on plane, the kinetic chain happens to support it.

Edited by flopper, 22 November 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Squish]

megaprimatus, on 21 November 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Squish, on 20 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Interesting video here...

Ah, ha! Seeing the body as a gyroscopic entity, as comprised of (potentially) multiple gyroscopic entities…

Interesting video indeed.

A pure golfswing is Stay-bility through mobility.
One must not lock the muscles to support C7.

It is a swing of the spine and a turn, a blended action.
Any attempt to seperate the two in practice on the course, or at the range, is counterproductive.

Squish and turn, not squish then turn.

[SunkTheBirdie]

I am trying to understand this thread, but the first 5 pages seem to start mid discussion.
Is there a Squish and Turn for Newbies thread / post ?
Complete with some videos of a Squish and Turn.

[Squish]

SunkTheBirdie, on 22 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I am trying to understand this thread, but the first 5 pages seem to start mid discussion.
Is there a Squish and Turn for Newbies thread / post ?
Complete with some videos of a Squish and Turn.

Understanding, start with Mike Austin's concepts explained in secrets of the games longest hitter.
Johnny Miller is good for a simplified "cliff note" version of how to return to the ball without getting stuck.
Shauger, Dunnaway, others have tried to explain it.

Squish and turn is my attempt. I find it was status quo at the turn of the century, James Braid, Vardon, etc.

Imagine a simple throwing a football action, while being inclined toward the ball in the golf stance.

The hips, legs, the arms, allowing the body's members, react to the throwing action.
The key then becomes to keep the head, the "top of the spine"still,
while allowing for the complete natural mobility of the lower body.

[flopper]

Squish, on 22 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Understanding, start with Mike Austin's concepts explained in secrets of the games longest hitter.
Johnny Miller is good for a simplified "cliff note" version of how to return to the ball without getting stuck.
Shauger, Dunnaway, others have tried to explain it.

Squish and turn is my attempt. I find it was status quo at the turn of the century, James Braid, Vardon, etc.

I also like to test things.
This is Simon my sisters kid, first swings no change made.
second swing only thing I told him to do was to keep C7 stable.
Wanted to know how it would change his action by a single instruction.
He dont play golf normally, tried some last year but spent this summer working, tag along from time to time with me to the range.

Edited by flopper, 22 November 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[vision541]

Hey Flop
Have  you tested Squish's "throw the football "?...I have been testing  different swings while keeping the C7stable... All produce similar results....I have found that by following three "things" I hit well....1. Toss the club back and up.  2. Keep a stableC7 and move hips 4 to 10.....so far for me this produces best impact ....but like everyone else (I suppose)..... I want more distance with my drives....so do I just continue refining those three moves or introduce my hands/ arms aka Squish's football throw...???