180 replies to this topic

[lsfird13]

Want to repeat some common questions in the hope they will be covered.

- Shaft profile of CFS and ballpark estimate compared to other common proprietary shafts on the market, aka, DG, KBS, PX, etc. Currently play KBS Stiff - work well for me but probably could use a little less spin particularly playing in the wind.

- Can you talk about the relatively high bounce of the clubs in more detail. Should I be concerned about playing on firm and fast conditions with them? I do tend to lean towards being more of a sweeper.

- If I was to get a custom grind to lower the bounce on the I20's because of the concerns given above, what would you recommend?

Thanks. You guys have done a great job marketing this line. Driving everyone crazy with the waiting but I guess that is the point . . .

[russian7]

I haven't played PING since my s59 irons, which were the best irons I ever owned, how do these compare to those, and what is the benefit of these over past models concerning technology, turf interaction, offset etc.? They seem similar shape to some of the previous models so how do they fall in the forgiveness/distance/accuracy categories? Thanks.

[WVP]

Thanks for doing this, Ping dudes and WRX. A few quick questions:

- is the i20 driver designed to be used by a larger range of players? The knock on the i15 driver was that it was the holy grail for 1% of golfers but a difficult club to hit for the majority.

-I know Ping has had Ti faces in some of their irons, what goes into the decision to utilize this material (or not) and is there any interest in making a Ti fairway or hybrid like some of the other OEM's are doing?

[pdaero]

PING, thanks for answering our questions! It is much appreciated.

How does the i20 driver compare to the Rapture V2 that I'm currently playing? I'm interested in something that still has lower spin, but is a little more forgiving and still workable. I loved the G15, but would love to get one of these!

With the irons, how does the CFS shaft compete against some of the major shafts (i.e. DG, KBS, PX, etc), and how does the increased bounce affect playability for someone with a shallower swing and point-of-entry?

Last thing, how does the i20 hybrid compare against the i15? I have been looking into an i15 hybrid because it's the best I've hit, but I would love to hear your comparison!

[Mizgoodie]

thanks for coming to the firestorm..


question...   After all the hype surrounding the i20 and its design..   do you believe progressive blade lengths will become the norm for players irons  instead of people putting combo sets together?

[JaxGolfer1]

With some competitors using adjustable lie and loft technology, what can PING offer golfers in the way of new technology in the i20 driver?

[Mags]

What can I expect, as an i15 driver user, to be different with the i20 driver?  Was the i20 made to appeal to a larger group of players since so many found the i15 difficult to play?

[d123751]

I am an old eye2 player.  I noticed the new i20 iron lofts are much stronger than the original eye2, why is that and will these clubs go father?

[PING]

We would like to thank everyone for joining us today for our i20 Tech Talk. It's great to have the opportunity to interact with so many of you. We're looking forward to answering as many of your questions as possible. Joining us today is our Director of Engineering Brad Schweigert, Marty Jertson our Senior Design Engineer, Mike Nicolette our Senior Product Designer and finally we have Chris Carter, our Senior Product Line Manager.


Let's start with the questions!!

[PING]

1big_whipper, on 04 February 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Can you spend some time discussing the new higher bounce on the i20 irons? A lot of sweepers are concerned.

[Mike] A little higher bounce (lead edge height) will not necessarily have an adverse effect on someone with a shallow angle of attack. Let's remember that virtually all irons shots are hit with a descending blow, i.e. the hands are ahead of the club head and the sternum is slightly ahead of the ball at the moment of impact. That being said, there needs to be some protection/bounce so the club does not travel too far into the turf. Each loft within a set of irons has a "Window of Opportunity" , if you will allow the phrase, for the lead edge to sit a certain distance from the ground….bounce. Too much lead edge height makes it is more difficult to get the face on the ball while not enough height will allow the club head to enter too far into the turf causing a digger. We have studied this at PING and know the max-min lead edge height to achieve a positive result for each loft. A "sweeper" of the ball still has a descending blow at impact and will not have any issue making solid contact with the i20 irons while the camber of the sole is set up to help protect the clubs from getting into the ground too far for someone with a steeper angle of attack.  All of the variables that go into making the sole's playability have been taken into account and the i20's are well within the "window" for all levels of golfers.

On a side note: One of the most positive things I have heard about the i20 irons is how well they go through the turf……that is coming from our staff players.

[PING]

TMBob, on 03 February 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

My question is about the shaft that the i20's come with, the CFS shaft.

How does the i15 shafts (AWT) compare to the i20's CFS? Spin, Launch Angle and shaft Frequency?

I understand that the AWT are descending weight shafts and the CFS are constant weight shafts, but other than that what are the differences please?

I currently play the AWT shafts and have been pleasantly surprised on how it plays . I have i20's on order with CFS soft stepped in Stiff for now, even though the new PXi has my eye.

BG

[Marty] The AWT shafts progress on a steeper frequency slope than the CFS, so, when comparing the two shafts, the AWT longer irons were a little softer and lighter, while the short iron shafts perform pretty similar.  The CFS shaft properties vary depending on the flex.  Like most of our proprietary shafts, we put in 'flighted' properties, so the softer flexes have softer tip sections and are lighter in weight, while the S and X have a more reinforced tip and are progressively heavier.  In general, the AWT shafts produce more spin and higher launch in the longer irons, especially in the S and X, while the CFS have a more stable and tight feel, and send the ball out on a flatter trajectory.  The frequency of the CFS is fairly traditional with the industry stiffness standards with respect to the slope and nominal values, while the AWT progressed on a steeper slope that was centered around the 7-iron.  I think you will be very happy with the feel and weight of the CFS soft stepped, especially because the i20 long irons send the ball up in the air so easily!

Also who is the typical player that will benefit from this shaft?

As stated above, the CFS has variable properties depending on the flex, and we've designed the weights in ranges that will suit most players.  So, we feel it has the ability to benefit a wide range of players, swing speeds, and load profiles.  We encourage the use of hard and soft stepping as another great fitting tool that can help get right in between flexes, and hit different weight ranges, as well.

[boulAAYYY]

how much more to put c-taper in a set of i20?

[stuart.f.cohen]

is there a dial in number for the webcast or is it just online q and a chat on this forum?  Thanks again for doing this.

[PING]

jabrch, on 07 February 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Why does Ping use it's own stock shafts instead of partner with some one of the other shaft makers?  Do you gain significant efficiencies by doing the engineering to both tads and the shafts?

[Marty] Thank you for the great question.  We see our role as developing the best knowledge about golf club design that we can, and, obviously, the shaft and grip properties have a significant impact on the overall performance of the product.  For example, the G20 shaft family (TFC169D) helps us yield an extra 7 grams of mass to the clubhead which delivers a substantial increase the clubhead's forgiveness and momentum going into impact.  We developed the knowledge and physics benefits of high balance point shaft design – along with all of the detailed mechanical specifications to give us the best fitting options – and then teamed with several of the best shaft manufactures to push the envelope on shaft design mass properties.  The net result is a shaft family that enables incredible performance gains for the entire club, and we developed the Tour shaft options also that gives great resolution in fitting options.  This type of innovation would not have taken place if we were to simply choose aftermarket shafts.  To help our customers player their beset golf, we also need to deliver the proper balance of system mass, stiffness, and feel for the entire set of clubs.  By customer engineering all of the shaft attributes on our own, we can pass along the correct progression of performance and feel for our customers who order Driver through Lob Wedge, so there is seamless transition throughout their set, and they don't need to make any conscious of sub-conscious compensations.

[PING]

pdaero, on 08 February 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

PING, thanks for answering our questions! It is much appreciated.

How does the i20 driver compare to the Rapture V2 that I'm currently playing? I'm interested in something that still has lower spin, but is a little more forgiving and still workable. I loved the G15, but would love to get one of these!

[Brad} The biggest similarities between both drivers is that they're both low spin heads. They also both share tungsten weighting technology to optimize MOI for greater forgiveness. In the i20 we've expanded the level of forgiveness versus the Rapture V2 and the i15 while at the same time producing improved launch conditions. We've optimized the aerodynamics of the head and shifted the hosel position to help increase ball speed. The center of gravity position is moved lower and further forward relative to the G20 which helps create approximately 20% lower spin.

Quote

With the irons, how does the CFS shaft compete against some of the major shafts (i.e. DG, KBS, PX, etc), and how does the increased bounce affect playability for someone with a shallower swing and point-of-entry?

[Brad] [Mike] [Marty] We conducted a big consumer study analyzing the benefits of many of the aftermarket shafts that are in the marketplace and used the knowledge gained to develop the CFS shaft line. The major benefits were focused on providing improved control, feel and stability. It has a tight feel with a great impact sensation.

Quote

Last thing, how does the i20 hybrid compare against the i15? I have been looking into an i15 hybrid because it's the best I've hit, but I would love to hear your comparison!

[Brad] [Mike] [Marty] There is some structural differences you'll notice when you look at the address position. We've squared off the face profile and shortened the heel to toe length, making it more versatile from all different types of conditions. We've moved the CG lower and more forward to provide a more penetrating ball flight.

[PING]

bogeyk, on 07 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

PING, thanks for opening up and sharing knowledge directly with the consumer.  My question is regarding the i20 wedges.  Are they designed to be laid open and playable from tight firm lies(short sided flop type shot) out of the box or should one considering ordering a WRX grind to get the job done?  If so, what grind would be recommended?  It's nice to have a set that goes from long iron to lob wedge seamlessly like the Eye2 and other sets have in the past.

[Mike] The SW and LW were designed to have a little higher bounce with regards to playability.  The TOUR-S line is very well received with better players looking for versatility around the greens but if we were fitting someone with a little less ability and not as comfortable opening the club up to increase the bounce we did not have a good option in a players style wedge. The design relative to the TOUR-S has a little more square looking toe and lead edge profile but still nicely shaped to not scare away the better players. If you want the ability to hit more shots around the green then I recommend taking 3° of bounce off the entire sole. We call it a bounce grind but you can call out the amount up to 3°. I would also recommend to "soften the heel" as this will allow you to lower your hands and play more off the heel……reducing the bounce in that area……making it easy to hit from tight lies.

[PING]

boulAAYYY, on 08 February 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

how much more to put c-taper in a set of i20?

[Chris] The MSRP is $35 per club up-charge for the KBS C-Taper iron shafts.

[PING]

Topspin2, on 07 February 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Question for Marty Jertson:

It's really a tremendous plus for PING to employ someone who uses the product on the course instead of us seeing videos of CAD screens with engineers in offices.

How do you separate the engineer and PING employee from the player Marty Jertson? Do you ever find yourself with a design epiphany after a good (or bad) shot or do you just play the game using what equipment you have and bring those ideas you learn back to the drawing board? What specific innovations have been a result of your on course work?

Keep up the good (play and) work!

[Marty] First of all, thank you for the compliment – I am very fortunate to work for such a great company that is supportive of my part-time playing career.  I see my role as a player and an engineer as being pretty similar in the big picture – it is the continuous, and never ending, pursuit of knowledge that will help lower scores.  Knowledge can lead to better equipment (Engineer) or better technique, preparation, and strategy (Golfer).  We are proud that we have some highly skilled golfers on our product development team, and it greatly help us design and test products efficiently.  Most importantly, however is that everyone is passionate about golf and helping to make the game more enjoyable through developing the best products and fitting tools by thoroughly knowing the challenges of our customers.  My personal experience on the course has indeed had a big influence on my design work and problem solving when I'm in the office.  One example, having played in some PGA Tour events recently and experiencing the aggressive hole locations and course setup, is the extreme importance of distance control and distance gapping.  We emphasize these attributes in all of our iron designs, but even the G20 game enjoyment irons that do give substantial distance.  The G20 irons are pretty big, fun, and forgiving, but they are still great at distance control and have a high performance groove design that reduces fliers.

[DFinch]

Beautiful irons and I'm looking forward to hitting them. Great explanation on the design decision concerning bounce.

I wish the stock loft setup created a ten iron setup from 21-60* instead of eleven.

Would a stock x100 player choose a stock CFS X or does the CFS play a bit stiffer or softer?

Is the lower iron spin being reported by people a function of the head design, shaft, both, or are the reports inaccurate? (I fight high spin in irons)

[J13]

Do you ever see a Ping Golf ball in the market?

[clubchamp08]

what if any are custom options in the  i20 irons . thanks

[Asleep]

stuart.f.cohen, on 08 February 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

is there a dial in number for the webcast or is it just online q and a chat on this forum?  Thanks again for doing this.

Just on the forum.

[PING]

WVP, on 08 February 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Thanks for doing this, Ping dudes and WRX. A few quick questions:

- is the i20 driver designed to be used by a larger range of players? The knock on the i15 driver was that it was the holy grail for 1% of golfers but a difficult club to hit for the majority.

[Brad] We've really tried to focus on meeting the needs of a much wider range of golfers with the design of the i20 driver while still offering a differentiated set of characteristics from the G20. The i20 is going to offer players an extremely low spinning head while still providing a high level of forgiveness. The G20 designed with the CG very low and back to provide the golfer with a high launch and mid to low-spin trajectory.

[PING]

lsfird13, on 08 February 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Want to repeat some common questions in the hope they will be covered.

- Shaft profile of CFS and ballpark estimate compared to other common proprietary shafts on the market, aka, DG, KBS, PX, etc. Currently play KBS Stiff - work well for me but probably could use a little less spin particularly playing in the wind.

- Can you talk about the relatively high bounce of the clubs in more detail. Should I be concerned about playing on firm and fast conditions with them? I do tend to lean towards being more of a sweeper.

- If I was to get a custom grind to lower the bounce on the I20's because of the concerns given above, what would you recommend?

Thanks. You guys have done a great job marketing this line. Driving everyone crazy with the waiting but I guess that is the point . . .

[Mike] We have had great feedback from our tour staff that the i20s go through the ground as well as any club they have ever hit. With that being said, if you would like to do a bounce grind, we can take up to 3 degrees of the bounce off the entire set.

[mdgboxx]

Is there a hint of a S-55 for 2012?

[dlynch]

Hi, Was just wondering if I  wanted a 52 degree in the i20 is it better to order the U wedge bent weaker or the SW bent stronger?

[jaskanski]

How about a no-frills true muscle back blade? No cavity, no tuning port, no tungsten weighting. Just an honest, precision cast design with clean lines, a thin top line, a thin sole and minimal offset. Maybe hard to produce in a cast variation (?), but if anyone could pull it off, Ping would be top of the list. Maybe it doesn't fit with your current demographic, but any chance of it in the future? You'd certainly have my attention for a durable blade.

[Hokie2k5]

How does the face angle on the new i20 driver sit.  I know in the past the i15 driver sat very open and some good players I know (myself somewhat included 1.1 index) had trouble squaring it up at impact.  I loved the head but just need something a little more square.  

Also, with the Ping driver family not being adjustable how would you fit someone like me that needs a square drive face on a driver?

[Lobber]

I am looking hard at the I20 driver and need advice on the stock shafts.  Is the TFC model a better choice for high swing speed, high spin player compared to the PX Black?  Thanks

[chamgel2]

Thanks for your time in doing this. I play almost an entire Ping bag, and played the i15 driver with great success  It was one of my favorite drivers of the past decade, as many have mentioned, the forgiveness was the only part of it that was lacking.  That being said, while I know the i20 is designed to be more forgiving, does it still have the same launch/spin characteristics of the i15?  Are you finding most stick with the same shaft they had in the i15 or go with shaft with different characteristics (lower launch etc) And finally, how is the launch of the TFC 707D compared to the Axivcore Red that was used in the i15, and is it counterbalanced?