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Playing Hickory Golf


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#991 HoldenCornfield

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 07:51 AM

Question for the hickory experts: the shaft on my jigger split the other day. It didn't break all the way, just kind of splintered in an area about 3-4 inches long. Can I repair that with epoxy and whipping, or is it kaput?

Also, I've noticed on Woody's Gibson set and several others I've seen that whipping is often applied to the hosel/shaft connection of irons, as well as just above the bend point and various other places on the shaft. Is this for strength or to stiffen the flex? What is the method and reasoning behind it?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

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#992 Bella Woods

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 08:07 AM

You can try to repair it with epoxy - but if it splintered once it will probably do it again,
could be a dried out shaft. And I would put whipping over the repair. Where on the shaft did it
split?

I think Ralph Livingston popularized the whipping above the hosel on irons - he thought it would help
absorb the shock and strengthen the shaft at the point where he thought most broken hickory shafts
occur. A lot of people do use it on wood clubs to stiffen the shaft flex too by coating the whipping,
or increase swingweight a little.

Bob Kuntz (one of the co-founders of the Golf Collectors Society) in his book on club repair put whipping
on repairs both to strengthen them and to actually indicate that a repair had been done on the shaft and
the location of the repair.

#993 majic

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 05:29 PM

Cracked shafts can be repaired but why? If you are not playing the club for awhile replace it as one reason it cracked you probably not reset the head.
I hate the look of whipping right at the top of hosel. Ralph had several ideas that were "Ralph's". You can add some weight and possibly reduce torque with a 3 inch area about 6 inches above the hosel being whipped with pitched linen and epoxy. Not waxed.


#994 Pigems

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:33 PM

Any of you fellows know anything about this club?? I found it in a storage locker and it looks quite old, any clue what year it may be from?

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#995 Bella Woods

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:37 PM

Reading Tads post above he is right - I actually meant shaft torque as well, not shaft stiffness - typo on my part,
had no idea of the location of the whipping though - thought you could do it in the normal spot for whipping on woods.

Re: I don't think you can actually make a hickory shaft stiffer than it is - but you can make it less stiff by sanding etc.
I have also heard that using linseed oil on a hickory shaft will soften it and therefore not recommended unless that is
your intention.


#996 Woodridge

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostBella Woods, on 18 December 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Reading Tads post above he is right - I actually meant shaft torque as well, not shaft stiffness - typo on my part,
had no idea of the location of the whipping though - thought you could do it in the normal spot for whipping on woods.

Re: I don't think you can actually make a hickory shaft stiffer than it is - but you can make it less stiff by sanding etc.
I have also heard that using linseed oil on a hickory shaft will soften it and therefore not recommended unless that is
your intention.

Any basic thoughts on the care of irons and shafts....beyond keeping them clean and dry after a round?
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#997 majic

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:03 PM

Hickory shafts are best preserved by cleaning with a rag with a solvent of choice to remove oils, dirt and other contaminants. Very, very lightly sand with one of the fine sanding foam pads. You are not trying to remove wood just scuff the finish. Next use Helmsman by MinWax polyurethane finish. Your choice from satin to clear. After a cover coat let it dry one day. Very lightly scuff with the fine foam sanding pad and wipe with tack rag and apply the second coat of polyurethane.
If you want you can put a thin 3rd coat in bag wear spots. After the finish is very dry you can use the finest steel wool or foam pad to very lightly touch the surface. Use car wax to protect in spring
No linseed oil or other such things  



#998 Woodridge

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:34 PM

Thanks Tad!
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#999 ebeer

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Posted Yesterday, 12:52 AM

I just obtained my first hickory with a Maxwell hosel.  I always pull the shaft, epoxy, and re-pin any new purchase before play.  I've never tacked a Maxwell hosel though...do these holes go all the way through?  If so, how do you epoxy the shaft in without plugging up the holes?
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#1000 stixman

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Posted Yesterday, 05:54 AM

I have to say that, along with Tad and others, I didn't like Ralph's take on supportive whipping just above the hosel and I took a traditionalist view. It was ugly and gave the wicked a chance to hide defects/ add lead tape etc.
However, purely anecdotally, I found my shaft breakage rate went down dramatically when I tried it on my own and my rental sets. So, for me, +1 to Ralph!
You pays your money and you takes your chance.

As a post script, I have several spools of natural flax twine used in the shoe making business and much thinner and less obtrusive than the usual black whipping. I'm going to try out hosel whipping my clubs with this stuff and coating it with a thin layer of epoxy (runny boat builders stuff) and see how that goes.

Re. linseed oil, I have no problem with it. Raw linseed doesn't penetrate the hickory as some claim (inc. Ralph), but like linseed based paints, forms a flexible and waterproof barrier which is easily removed and replaced. Poly requires labour intensive removal, when required. Makes the product look great on the shop shelf, though.
This could be a trans-pond cultural thing, our climate is more humid so horses for courses, perhaps.

Edited by stixman, Yesterday, 05:58 AM.

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Apex II,or 1968 Dynas, or Nicoll Cottons
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#1001 HoldenCornfield

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Posted Yesterday, 08:47 AM

View Postmajic, on 18 December 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

Cracked shafts can be repaired but why? If you are not playing the club for awhile replace it as one reason it cracked you probably not reset the head.
I hate the look of whipping right at the top of hosel. Ralph had several ideas that were "Ralph's". You can add some weight and possibly reduce torque with a 3 inch area about 6 inches above the hosel being whipped with pitched linen and epoxy. Not waxed.

I did not reset the head on this one as it seemed nice and tight. The shaft broke the first time I swung it. I guess this means its pretty dried out and probably not worth the time and effort to repair as it will probably happen again.
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been dead for ages... Still, I could
go and jump on his grave." - PGW

#1002 majic

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Posted Yesterday, 09:57 AM

Maxwell hosels are like any. Clean the inside the best you can as well as the shaft. When putting the shaft back use lots of epoxy to allow it to come out the holes. I like to fill the holes as much as I can so I always have a new pin ready and put the pin back in ( aluminum welding rod) and then put epoxy in jokes and wrap hosel with masking tape.  The holes don't have to end up totally full but you do want the hole closed off to keep moisture out of the shaft. I used clear epoxy.
This is how I did mine. Seemed to work good.
Stix it might be good on rental to protect from abuse but I hate the look. I have never had a shaft break when it was properly set in my personal clubs. I did have my favorite Danga Wood Gibson Albatross 2 iron break at the Road Hole in 2003. It had 2 inches of whipping at shaft/hosel joint. Sad day. Took a few pints at the Dunvegan to get over it.

#1003 stixman

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Posted Yesterday, 10:55 AM

Tad,
Sad indeed, however you would have to deduct the number of pints you would normally have had in the aforementioned pub from the number which you actually sank in order to determine the 'sadness quotient'!    :beruo:


+1 on the appearance..
But I did break a few shafts at the top of the hosel for no apparent good reason,or at least the autopsies revealed nothing. Probably just my technique. Diagonal fractures and splits I believed were due to either poor timber or, often, using too hard a ball.
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#1004 ebeer

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Posted Yesterday, 12:51 PM

Thanks for the tips on Maxwell hosel Tad, and good call on the clear epoxy...honestly that was one of my concerns - having black epoxy showing.  I hadn't even considered the moisture thing, so I'll be sure the holes have adequate coverage to protect the shaft cone.
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#1005 Woodridge

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Posted Yesterday, 10:38 PM

View Poststixman, on 19 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Tad,
Sad indeed, however you would have to deduct the number of pints you would normally have had in the aforementioned pub from the number which you actually sank in order to determine the 'sadness quotient'! :beruo:


+1 on the appearance..
But I did break a few shafts at the top of the hosel for no apparent good reason,or at least the autopsies revealed nothing. Probably just my technique. Diagonal fractures and splits I believed were due to either poor timber or, often, using too hard a ball.

Regarding the ball...The ones listed below seem to among the favorites. If there are some listed that should not be, please let me know that as well as those that should be included. For the record, I already play the Wilson Duo and was going to play that during casual rounds.

Wilson Duo
Wilson Zip
Wilson 50
Titleist Pro V1
Callaway Super Soft
McIntyre Ouimet and RTR


Thanks,

jim

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#1006 stixman

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Posted Today, 03:24 AM

View PostWoodridge, on 19 December 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

View Poststixman, on 19 December 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Tad,
Sad indeed, however you would have to deduct the number of pints you would normally have had in the aforementioned pub from the number which you actually sank in order to determine the 'sadness quotient'! :beruo:


+1 on the appearance..
But I did break a few shafts at the top of the hosel for no apparent good reason,or at least the autopsies revealed nothing. Probably just my technique. Diagonal fractures and splits I believed were due to either poor timber or, often, using too hard a ball.

Regarding the ball...The ones listed below seem to among the favorites. If there are some listed that should not be, please let me know that as well as those that should be included. For the record, I already play the Wilson Duo and was going to play that during casual rounds.

Wilson Duo
Wilson Zip
Wilson 50
Titleist Pro V1
Callaway Super Soft
McIntyre Ouimet and RTR


Thanks,

jim

I am going back 20 years before 'soft' golf balls were around. The softest ball then was the Lady Pinnacle. I was using 90 comp semi wound Titleist PTS which turned out not to be good. Others were finding out the 'Hard' way using Gen. 1 Rockflites and Molitors etc.

Any of the balls in your selection should be fine with a reservation on the Pro V1. My swing speed is now slow enough and shaft loading sufficiently incremental that it's OK for me. Last I saw the Pro V1 was 87.5 comp.
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3 + 5 Mac. Custom Persimmon
Apex II,or 1968 Dynas, or Nicoll Cottons
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#1007 Bella Woods

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Posted Today, 08:35 AM

I usually play the Wilson Duo, now especially in the cooler/cold weather.
Tried the Wilson Zip for a while but the Duo is longer off the tee and
longer irons for me.

I still play the Pro V-1 in the summer, and actually for a few years played
it exclusively and have never had a problem with it (being to hard for the
clubs).

But I could see where you could run into a problem if you hit a lot of shots
(or consistently do) on the toe or heel, especially the longer the club.

Edit:

The old balls stixman is referring to were probably more in the 100 to 110
compression category with a harder cover too.

Edited by Bella Woods, Today, 08:38 AM.


#1008 stixman

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Posted Today, 09:13 AM

View PostBella Woods, on 20 December 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

I usually play the Wilson Duo, now especially in the cooler/cold weather.
Tried the Wilson Zip for a while but the Duo is longer off the tee and
longer irons for me.

I still play the Pro V-1 in the summer, and actually for a few years played
it exclusively and have never had a problem with it (being to hard for the
clubs).

But I could see where you could run into a problem if you hit a lot of shots
(or consistently do) on the toe or heel, especially the longer the club.

Edit:

The old balls stixman is referring to were probably more in the 100 to 110
compression category with a harder cover too.

I specifically referred to the Titleist PTS 90 Comp as the ball I was using, 90 compression.
Topflites etc, which others used, were offered in 90 and 100 compressions but as with all these balls they did not have this layered ;engine' of todays balls.
They were essentially one piece balls with a surlyn cover, I'm not talking here about the wound balls with a balata cover. The one piece ball lacked the progressive resilience that todays ball has, and thus there was an element of 'shock' which hickory shafts did not respond well to.
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Apex II,or 1968 Dynas, or Nicoll Cottons
Wilson PW
1935 Wilson R90, real deal
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#1009 Bella Woods

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Posted Today, 10:56 AM

I agree stixman about the element of shock you speak about (even with the
modern clubs of the day let alone hickory), and I did see your reference to
the specific ball.

Just making a comment in general about how much harder the old balls
were (especially a ball like the Molitor) because of their make up.

Speaking of the old balatas, the compression of them was not all that precise
really - Titleist would call a ball 90 compression if it measured between 85 and
95, and would call a ball 100 compression if it measured between 95 and 105 compression.

I never measured them - but I would bet some of the harder balls of the day were in
the 110 compression area.

#1010 hollabachgt

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Posted Today, 03:37 PM

I'm one that whips my shafts at the hosel. I broke a shaft or two there prior to implementing this practice and have not sense. Whether or not there is any correlation, I will continue to do so as I like the look of the club better with the whipping.


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#1011 Bella Woods

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Posted Today, 05:06 PM

I put whipping on almost all my iron hosels too unless the swingweight is
already on the high side (rare).

I also don't have any facts as to whether it actually reduces breakage/shock
to the shaft - but I figure it can't hurt either. I have had only one club
break at the hosel in 12 years of hickory golf, the other two were under the
grip and in the middle of the shaft.

I am very comfortable with the look now, but it took a while to get to that point.

Adds about 1 swingweight point in my experience depending on how much whipping
you actually put on and where (multiple or not).

Edited by Bella Woods, Today, 05:09 PM.


#1012 Bella Woods

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Posted Today, 05:22 PM

I should add a couple of things to my previous post.

When I first started playing hickory golf in 2002 (with a short set that I
bought from Chuck Furjanic) my go to book for hickory club maintenance/repairs
was the Bob Kuntz book called Antique Golf Clubs - Restoration and Repairs.

As I recall he only used it to strengthen a repair and/or indicate that one had been
done and where. It was not until I met Ralph Livingston did I do what he was doing.

Still only one hosel break in all those years - whipping at the hosel or not.

#1013 ebeer

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Posted Today, 07:26 PM

Well I got the new to me niblick epoxied.  Made sure I used the clear epoxy and that it pooled a bit in the holes to protect the shaft from moisture, per Tad's instruction (thanks again for the help).  It certainly was a lot messier than normal with epoxy oozing everywhere, but turned out just fine.  I pin with brass, it's pretty easy to cut and file plus I like the look.  I've looked all over for the aluminum rod, but can only find it in massive quantities at welding supply stores.

Hoping to get this club on the course over the holidays.  Fred Bell was a club professional in Colorado.  No manufacturer labeled, but I assume from the lion on top of six circles that it's a Burke.  It's heavy at E8, and long for a niblick at 37"....think I'll just choke up a bit, hate to cut a shaft down.

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#1014 majic

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Posted 48 minutes ago

You should be able to find the aluminum rod. Look up in yellow pages for a company that supplies welding supplies and equipment. It will come in a clear tube about 1.5 inches in diameter and 36 inches long.
Brass looks nice I admit. Aluminum works just fine and is easier.
I like your glue work. Yes a little messy but worth it.
I hope it hits as good as it looks.




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