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flat left wrist at impact position


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#1 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:05 AM

How difficult is it?

I practice now 5 weeks (every day, min. 3h) = over 100h to get an forward shaft lean and flat left wrist at impact. In my 3/4 wedge swing is zero improvement. (from today)



I have forward shaft lean in my very small pitch shots but still a cuped left wrist.



The best result I achieved is with my chipshots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjzTK0XcTM&feature=related

So, my question is: how long will it takes (estimate) to have this desired position in my full swing? Do have to practice 6 month (500-600h) on chipshots and 6 more month on pitches till I get it? I'm asking because I'm afraid to waste time and energy.

cheers, Tommy


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#2 arlingtonz

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

I don't want to sound the bearer of bad news, but it is very challenging. I have been at it too for a couple months now. I have a bad habit of not driving my right arm through (or trapping it behind my body) which causes me to flip. My chip and pitch shots look very similar to yours, but my irons are still a work in progress. One of the drills I have tried (learned from this board) is the chalk drill, where you place the ball on a line of chalk and don't take a divot behind the ball. That has help me out a lot - but I have to really make sure I continue to rotate my shoulders through the swing.

Another thing to help me out, I bought the orange whip and only been using it for a week or so, and I feel like it has been helping out a good bit, but jury is still out as it is too early.

Good luck and keep at it, best advice I can give you is to think about "challenging the ball to not get up" by striking down on it so much. That was one of the last pieces of advice I got from my pro.

#3 GetmeouttaJersey

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:48 AM

Keep working at it man!  Maybe mix in a few other drills/feels to get you in the right position but in a different manner.  

I've been working in getting more shaft lean all season and I'm just NOW starting to really compress the ball the way I want and it's showing in my ball striking.  Keep at it.  It's an endless journey unfortunately.

#4 PingG10guy

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

How difficult is it?

I practice now 5 weeks (every day, min. 3h) = over 100h to get an forward shaft lean and flat left wrist at impact. In my 3/4 wedge swing is zero improvement. (from today)



I have forward shaft lean in my very small pitch shots but still a cuped left wrist.



The best result I achieved is with my chipshots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjzTK0XcTM&feature=related

So, my question is: how long will it takes (estimate) to have this desired position in my full swing? Do have to practice 6 month (500-600h) on chipshots and 6 more month on pitches till I get it? I'm asking because I'm afraid to waste time and energy.

cheers, Tommy

...Allow me to be the bearer of great news.  The term "flat left wrist" is a relative term and you are not required to have a visually flat left wrist.  What you see in the chip vids is perfect and if you got any flatter at impact you would have a hooded clubface and pull everything way way left

The reason?  You have a strong left hand grip.  You should have cup in it at address and at the top of the backswing; and slightly less at impact (but still a little cupped).  Worry about keeping the face square to the arc and not making your hands look like something they shouldnt.

The full swing video looks flippy because you have a ton of weight on your backfoot which stops your handpath and you flip.  It wont look any better until you fix the transition move.  The reason your chip vids look better is you preset the weight left already.  Make sense?

Edited by PingG10guy, 08 November 2011 - 11:00 AM.


#5 hbgpagolfpro

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:16 PM

In looking at your swing, a couple thoughts....you do not aggressively initiate the down swing with the lower body...your lower body essentially starts the down swing at the same time as the upper body.  Your thoughts seem to be purely with what the arms and hands are doing in the swing, and then you keep the head down way too long past impact.  You need to let that head release with the club after impact.  Place more emphasis on the lower body, particularly in the transition, and the lag at impact will appear on its own.  One great drill is to learn Slicefixer's 9 to 3 swing, and then learn to hit the snot out of the ball with that little half swing.  This requires you to focus on the lower body, and the proper pivot over the left foot in the down swing and follow through.  

Your swing shape is fine, so you have a leg up on a lot of golfers...learn how to engage that lower body better, and you will be on your way.


#6 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:22 PM

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 08 November 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

In looking at your swing, a couple thoughts....you do not aggressively initiate the down swing with the lower body...your lower body essentially starts the down swing at the same time as the upper body.  Your thoughts seem to be purely with what the arms and hands are doing in the swing, and then you keep the head down way too long past impact.  You need to let that head release with the club after impact.  Place more emphasis on the lower body, particularly in the transition, and the lag at impact will appear on its own.  One great drill is to learn Slicefixer's 9 to 3 swing, and then learn to hit the snot out of the ball with that little half swing.  This requires you to focus on the lower body, and the proper pivot over the left foot in the down swing and follow through.  

Your swing shape is fine, so you have a leg up on a lot of golfers...learn how to engage that lower body better, and you will be on your way.

thanks...

In this video I try the "Tiger-Squat" instead of sitting in to my left side. But it's lot harder to do as I thought.

You are right, shifting my weight to the left and at the same time drop of my hands should be the first move. My biggest issue in the transition is I keep my arms at the top instead of let them drop.

[attachment=909263:Bildschirmfoto 2011-11-08 um 19.18.33.png]  [attachment=909265:Bildschirmfoto 2011-11-08 um 19.18.23.png]


cheers, Tommy

Edited by tommykrebs, 08 November 2011 - 01:22 PM.


#7 dukeman

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:23 PM

Tkrebs...I think you will find this helpful.



#8 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:00 PM

it's easier to practice if I start from the impact position.



#9 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:06 PM

View Postdukeman, on 08 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Tkrebs...I think you will find this helpful.



thank you. I've watched this already. I'm want square shoulders and my hips 45 open at impact. His swing concept is different.

#10 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:19 PM

With my driver I have the issue that in my transition I shift my whole body to the left and I have not enough spin tilt left to hit my ball on the upswing. Shifting my hips only is impossible to feel. Any ideas?




cheers, Tommy


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#11 CHRIS509

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 02:38 PM

Looking at your swing vid's,( it could be just those swings) they are all very arm oriantated with very little body rotation or use of the lower body.
Introduce more rotation into your whole swing back and forward, this in turn will create more rotational/centrefugul force, which in turn creates
and easy natrual release. Stop thinking about trying to recreate a flat wrist or shaft tilt, better mechanic's will create a better impact position and so on.

#12 SuaSponteMn

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:01 PM

View PostCHRIS509, on 08 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

Looking at your swing vid's,( it could be just those swings) they are all very arm oriantated with very little body rotation or use of the lower body.
Introduce more rotation into your whole swing back and forward, this in turn will create more rotational/centrefugul force, which in turn creates
and easy natrual release. Stop thinking about trying to recreate a flat wrist or shaft tilt, better mechanic's will create a better impact position and so on.

Agreed, I spent almost half of this season literally with the impact zone book on my brain. It's a great book, but it focused so much on moving that swing bottom forward, and the hands ahead of the club head, that I literally stopped rotating. Was frustrated as my distance got worse even as ballstriking got better. I took a week off, came back, and all of the sudden the rotation was back and I because of the repetition, I kept the forward leaning club shaft.

Personally, I think that while drills are great, there's a time when you need to put them aside and just play golf, focusing on targets and tempo...

#13 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:09 PM

View PostCHRIS509, on 08 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

Looking at your swing vid's,( it could be just those swings) they are all very arm oriantated with very little body rotation or use of the lower body.
Introduce more rotation into your whole swing back and forward, this in turn will create more rotational/centrefugul force, which in turn creates
and easy natrual release. Stop thinking about trying to recreate a flat wrist or shaft tilt, better mechanic's will create a better impact position and so on.

I know what you mean. But this is not the way I want to swing. If you fire your hips from the top you can cast the club (due to centrefugal force), swing OTT, have back issues, getting stuck, early release... etc.

Firing my hips? Yes, but only when my right arm is in front of my body. That's not the impact position I'm looking for:

[attachment=909365:Bildschirmfoto 2011-11-08 um 21.03.42.png]



cheers, Tommy






#14 The Duck

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:14 PM

Been a season long improvement for me too.

Try this to get the weight to the front foot to slow the flip.

Instead of the shoulders square to the ground, tip the left up/right down and look down the target line with the rear eye.
This allows the body head to follow the sightline to the target .
Focus to a spot beyond the ball to watch the ball release off the club.
A slightly open stance helps the path to keep the club face square to the target line and the path on line to the target.

If you get less flip in the swing  the power will come because your will always be on path and can swiing faster without fear of yanks or pulls.

YMMV

#15 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 03:51 PM

View PostSuaSponteMn, on 08 November 2011 - 03:01 PM, said:

but it focused so much on moving that swing bottom forward, and the hands ahead of the club head, that I literally stopped rotating.
That's exactly what I noticed today. The rest of the week I will work more on my transition move.


#16 CHRIS509

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:36 PM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

View PostCHRIS509, on 08 November 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

Looking at your swing vid's,( it could be just those swings) they are all very arm oriantated with very little body rotation or use of the lower body.
Introduce more rotation into your whole swing back and forward, this in turn will create more rotational/centrefugul force, which in turn creates
and easy natrual release. Stop thinking about trying to recreate a flat wrist or shaft tilt, better mechanic's will create a better impact position and so on.

I know what you mean. But this is not the way I want to swing. If you fire your hips from the top you can cast the club (due to centrefugal force), swing OTT, have back issues, getting stuck, early release... etc.

Firing my hips? Yes, but only when my right arm is in front of my body. That's not the impact position I'm looking for:

[attachment=909365:Bildschirmfoto 2011-11-08 um 21.03.42.png]



cheers, Tommy


Tommy, Personally i think it's the other way around or ive miss read your post.

Firing your hips starts the down swing chain reaction that in turn opens the gate for your arms to swing through, allowing your arms to always be in front of you, allowing a natual release.

Arm swinging as i mention before can induce OTT move and a latrel slide of the hips in an atempt to "get you out of the way"

Cheers Chris

#17 arlingtonz

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:47 PM

Looking at the driver swing, the thing I would immediately try to correct is the posting on the right leg which causing your hips to tilt down. Additionally, you allow your hands to continue backwards, even though your shoulders have stopped rotating. This then causing you to restart your swing at the top with your hands before you can move your shoulders. Allowing your hands to initiate the downward movement, killing lag and encouraging the flip.

With a high back hip angle, you are forcing yourself to then drop back onto the right leg, slowing the transition.

My suggestion (again, only for what it is worth) is to really focus on keeping a consistent knee bend, stop taking the hands back when the shoulders are done rotating, and begin the swing by releasing the hips. A bent right knee will aid in the transition onto the front foot, and by not allowing the hands to drift behind the head you will not have to feel your hands back into a normal position with the shoulders.

#18 PaddyK

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:02 PM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

How difficult is it?

I practice now 5 weeks (every day, min. 3h) = over 100h to get an forward shaft lean and flat left wrist at impact. In my 3/4 wedge swing is zero improvement. (from today)



I have forward shaft lean in my very small pitch shots but still a cuped left wrist.



The best result I achieved is with my chipshots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjzTK0XcTM&feature=related

So, my question is: how long will it takes (estimate) to have this desired position in my full swing? Do have to practice 6 month (500-600h) on chipshots and 6 more month on pitches till I get it? I'm asking because I'm afraid to waste time and energy.

cheers, Tommy


What is the ball doing, Does it not go where you want it to?

#19 whatwhatwhat

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:39 PM

You shouldnt strive for a FLW at impact nor to hold it, have a look at the Brian manzella release thread over on his site, hes releasing a show on it soon.

#20 dairic

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:47 PM

View Postdukeman, on 08 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Tkrebs...I think you will find this helpful.



This stuff is Gold. Similar to Dan Whittaker and Slicefixer. I've been playing for about 1.5 years and I've just recently started to appreciate the value of this type of swing where the pivot squares the club at Impact with the arms very much connected to the body which removes the risk of flipping. I've been trying to model my swing based on this approach for the last couple months and so far I noticed that I rarely hit fat shots anymore, and I'm having a lot more success hitting my longer clubs consistently.


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#21 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 05:51 PM

View PostPaddyK, on 08 November 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

What is the ball doing, Does it not go where you want it to?
No, not at all. That's the reason I start over. (chips + small pitches)

@all
thank you guy's... but I will never ever swing with "firing my hips" again. I know most of you are Hogan and Slicefixer fans but it doesn't work for me. I learn the RST.



There is more than one way to swing the club and I have seen (here in the forum) many issues caused by firing the hips. Like casting and getting stuck.

cheers, Tommy









#22 dairic

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:13 PM

[/quote]

There is more than one way to swing the club and I have seen (here in the forum) many issues caused by firing the hips. Like casting and getting stuck.

cheers, Tommy


[/quote]

Casting and getting stuck are a result of arms and body being out of sync. This is not the result of a proper pivot drivin swing.

#23 tommykrebs

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:22 PM

View Postdairic, on 08 November 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

This is not the result of a proper pivot drivin swing.

Never said that.

#24 dairic

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:49 PM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

View Postdairic, on 08 November 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

This is not the result of a proper pivot drivin swing.

Never said that.

my bad.

If you're finding success with RST then stick with it. I gave it a try and it fixed a lot of issues I was having when I first started playing golf. I built my backswing using RST, but didn't get much success trying to incorporate what they had to offer when it came to the downswing because there was just too much stuff going on. I liked the progressive step by step approach to their system, and they are very good at answering any questions you might have quickly. Overall a good site I think.

#25 russc

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:17 PM

View Postdairic, on 08 November 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

View Postdukeman, on 08 November 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Tkrebs...I think you will find this helpful.



This stuff is Gold. Similar to Dan Whittaker and Slicefixer. I've been playing for about 1.5 years and I've just recently started to appreciate the value of this type of swing where the pivot squares the club at Impact with the arms very much connected to the body which removes the risk of flipping. I've been trying to model my swing based on this approach for the last couple months and so far I noticed that I rarely hit fat shots anymore, and I'm having a lot more success hitting my longer clubs consistently.

Bradley's release is superb and the same that  Slicefixer and Dan recommend.With both Slicefixer  and Bradley it is important to attack from shallow angles.Slicefixer suggests shallowing  out the club gradually on the the backswing starting at 8:00,while Bradley shallows out the shaft during transition.You can do it either way,but Slicefixer's idea seems to me simpler to accomplish IMOP.


#26 russc

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:42 PM

Hi Tommy

Try this drill to help you feel the forward leaning shaft that you so desire.Martin chuck's "pro impact drill".At first practice only the 9-3 version of the drill.

I am a huge fan of Slicefixer and want to correct some negative ideas that you have about his swing  in addition to  helping you towards your goal.He does NOT suggest firing the hips..In transition he suggests really pressuring your left heel.This is a combo move combining  first a lateral move to establish your left pivot point over your left ankle/heel and then the subsequent rotational move around this left pivot point for the rest of the downswing. Of course the hips will be brought into the equation but this does not happen in isolation and does not happen first in transition.Wayne Francisco talks about the exact same thing in describing his 45 degree move .  At the top in his backswing  a golfer should feel a "ton'; of weight on the inside  of the right heel.From this position a golfer can perform the combo move and have NO worry about casting or an OTT move.If a golfer just thinks" firing the hips" as his first move in transition he does risk an OTT move because he has not established his left pivot point and  is rotating around his right pivot  point

A flat left wrist or forward leaning shaft  are not goals in themselves;they result from a proper pivot on the downswing.

Edited by russc, 08 November 2011 - 07:54 PM.


#27 SpeedyPro

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:51 PM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

How difficult is it?

I practice now 5 weeks (every day, min. 3h) = over 100h to get an forward shaft lean and flat left wrist at impact. In my 3/4 wedge swing is zero improvement. (from today)



I have forward shaft lean in my very small pitch shots but still a cuped left wrist.



The best result I achieved is with my chipshots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvjzTK0XcTM&feature=related

So, my question is: how long will it takes (estimate) to have this desired position in my full swing? Do have to practice 6 month (500-600h) on chipshots and 6 more month on pitches till I get it? I'm asking because I'm afraid to waste time and energy.

cheers, Tommy

There are some pros who has winning streaks using your swing (flipping hands) in the first video.
For example, Na-Yeon Choi is my favorite LPGA player and see her impact at 0:13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWWWBV2kMxM

My friend also uses this flipping-hands swing and he beats me in distance and consistency all the time.

I think it's the matter of your choice: which swing style you want to have as a automatic habit.

#28 danattherock

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:01 PM

Not a big fan of training aids. However, two things I have used worked very well.

I suspect if you read up on them a bit, you may find them useful for what you are working on.

Bobby Clampett's book, "The Impact Zone" would be helpful as well I suspect.

Working on the flat left wrist and hands ahead of the club head at impact have helped me tremendously.



The Tour Striker training club.

The Sklz training glove.




-Dan

#29 Lefthook

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 11:59 PM

View Posttommykrebs, on 08 November 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:



The best result I achieved is with my chipshots:


I agree. You are close there, but not quite there yet. You could work a bit more on that, then work your way backwards from impact.

A couple of pointers:

In your videos there are signs that your left arm moves too fast compared to your shoulder turn through impact. You are pulling with your left shoulder for a while, but before impact the shoulder turn is outraced by the arms swing.  Try to swing the arms more with the shoulders and as little as possible with the arms.

You seem to set your wrists up for an early flip. There are signs of this also in the chipping video even though you manage to hold it off, somehow. You are wrist cocking artificially with your left and right hand right after the takeaway.  You are basically flipping the club after the takeaway. When you come down the same way, the club head will catch up with the hands before impact.

If you start with impact hands you can freeze your right hand at address and keep it frozen until the ball is gone if you're doing anything that doesn't require a late release. This is gold around the greens, and it is a great way to start learning how to hit the ball with the hands leading the club head and the left shoulder pulling the left hand & the club head. Heck, it can even be gold from 100 yards and maybe further out as well. But at the same time you should rotate the club so much going back that you you can start the down swing by dragging the hands and create enough club head momentum to throw it out to the ball without steering.

In a full swing the left wrist will be automatically cocked as the right elbow folds so there's no need for the double wrist **** that you're doing now in the back swing.  When you do a back swing with a frozen, or at least a very quiet right bent wrist, you have also set yourself up for a down swing sequencing where the club head doesn't catch up with the hands before impact.

#30 tommykrebs

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:57 AM

View PostLefthook, on 08 November 2011 - 11:59 PM, said:

When you do a back swing with a frozen, or at least a very quiet right bent wrist, you have also set yourself up for a down swing sequencing where the club head doesn't catch up with the hands before impact.
good advice. Posted Image


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