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PING CFS Shaft - 2 different stories from PING


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#1 hd.softail

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 02:42 PM

Hello all,

I need some help if there are any PING engineers or fitters who can help.  I emailed PING the following and received one response which I found unusual and then called them to hear another response.  PLEASE let me know what the REAL answer to my question is.  Very disappointed in their customer service/knowledge so far.

Thanks in advance for the help !!!

EMAIL/QUESTION TO PING:  "What shaft setup in the Z-Z65 would match the new CFS Stiff the closest? 1) Z-Z65 soft-stepped once? 2) Z-Z65 soft-stepped twice? Opposite that would a CFS hard-stepped twice match the z-z65 identically or is there some difference between the CFS and z-z65 that even stepping to match the step pattern still won't make them the same?"

PING RESPONDED: "The design of the CFS shaft is based off of the Z-Z65. The main difference is the CFS is a constant weight shaft instead of a descending weighted shaft. The CFS Stiff and the Z-Z65 are very close without stepping the shaft. Please let me know if you have any questions."

I CALLED PING AND WAS TOLD:  "The CFS X is a direct match to the Z-Z65.  It's not the CFS Stiff because the CFS-S and Z-Z65 have completely different step patterns.  The Z-Z65 is a Constant Weight shaft"


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#2 mikec3672

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 04:33 PM

 hd.softail, on 11 October 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

Hello all,

I need some help if there are any PING engineers or fitters who can help.  I emailed PING the following and received one response which I found unusual and then called them to hear another response.  PLEASE let me know what the REAL answer to my question is.  Very disappointed in their customer service/knowledge so far.

Thanks in advance for the help !!!

EMAIL/QUESTION TO PING:  "What shaft setup in the Z-Z65 would match the new CFS Stiff the closest? 1) Z-Z65 soft-stepped once? 2) Z-Z65 soft-stepped twice? Opposite that would a CFS hard-stepped twice match the z-z65 identically or is there some difference between the CFS and z-z65 that even stepping to match the step pattern still won't make them the same?"

PING RESPONDED: "The design of the CFS shaft is based off of the Z-Z65. The main difference is the CFS is a constant weight shaft instead of a descending weighted shaft. The CFS Stiff and the Z-Z65 are very close without stepping the shaft. Please let me know if you have any questions."

I CALLED PING AND WAS TOLD:  "The CFS X is a direct match to the Z-Z65.  It's not the CFS Stiff because the CFS-S and Z-Z65 have completely different step patterns.  The Z-Z65 is a Constant Weight shaft"
So I read that as PING saying that the ZZ-65 (which btw was not offered in different flexes like the CFS) was quite a stiff shaft, and that the CFS that comes closest is the X. What this also means for folk who thought that the ZZ-65 was too stiff, is that they can now get a similar performing shaft in flexes R, S, X, without mucking around with soft/hard stepping, which only really softens or firms up the tip feel.

Edited by mikec3672, 11 October 2011 - 04:31 PM.


#3 PING

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 04:48 PM

 hd.softail, on 11 October 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

Hello all,

I need some help if there are any PING engineers or fitters who can help.  I emailed PING the following and received one response which I found unusual and then called them to hear another response.  PLEASE let me know what the REAL answer to my question is.  Very disappointed in their customer service/knowledge so far.

Thanks in advance for the help !!!

EMAIL/QUESTION TO PING:  "What shaft setup in the Z-Z65 would match the new CFS Stiff the closest? 1) Z-Z65 soft-stepped once? 2) Z-Z65 soft-stepped twice? Opposite that would a CFS hard-stepped twice match the z-z65 identically or is there some difference between the CFS and z-z65 that even stepping to match the step pattern still won't make them the same?"

PING RESPONDED: "The design of the CFS shaft is based off of the Z-Z65. The main difference is the CFS is a constant weight shaft instead of a descending weighted shaft. The CFS Stiff and the Z-Z65 are very close without stepping the shaft. Please let me know if you have any questions."

I CALLED PING AND WAS TOLD:  "The CFS X is a direct match to the Z-Z65.  It's not the CFS Stiff because the CFS-S and Z-Z65 have completely different step patterns.  The Z-Z65 is a Constant Weight shaft"

We apologize for the confusion. If you're looking to achieve a very close match to our Z-Z65, we would suggest taking the CFS Stiff and hard stepping it twice. If you would like to achieve a slightly heavier version (5 grams), you can take the CFS X and soft step it twice.

#4 hd.softail

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 05:04 PM

Love it, thanks so much PING !  

Another thing that confused me was the descending weight comment.  Is the Z-Z65 constant or descending weight?

#5 PING

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 05:39 PM

 hd.softail, on 11 October 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

Love it, thanks so much PING !  

Another thing that confused me was the descending weight comment.  Is the Z-Z65 constant or descending weight?

No problem! The Z-Z65 shaft is constant weight.


#6 bell812

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 05:51 PM

Another reason to play Ping, they answer your questions wherever you are!

#7 serveitup911

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 05:57 PM

 bell812, on 11 October 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Another reason to play Ping, they answer your questions wherever you are!

I know, how awesome is that!  I'm slowly working toward an all-Ping bag - just bought an original Rapture 5 wood.  I'm only 2 clubs away (hybrid - want to see i20 & putter - putting too well to switch).

PS: I love the Z-Z65 shaft, especially with Cushin!  I have it in my 4 iron.

#8 zm231

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:21 PM

 bell812, on 11 October 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Another reason to play Ping, they answer your questions wherever you are!

I was thinking the same thing. It's really nice to see a company directly reply to a thread on here.
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#9 PingDrv00

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:48 PM

That type of customer service and support alone may sway me towards the S56.  I have been waivering back and forth between them and the AP2's for a while, and also contemplating waiting for the I20's.  If Ping wouldn't make such high quality options it would be an easy decision.
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#10 dpb5031

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 06:46 PM

Anyone try the S56 with CFS shaft yet?


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#11 Asleep

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 06:54 PM

 PING, on 11 October 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

We apologize for the confusion. If you're looking to achieve a very close match to our Z-Z65, we would suggest taking the CFS Stiff and hard stepping it twice. If you would like to achieve a slightly heavier version (5 grams), you can take the CFS X and soft step it twice.

Thanks, guys.
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#12 hd.softail

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:08 PM

Just thought I'd share...after getting the response to my post I ordered my new set of G10s with Z-Z65 soft-stepped once.  Should be here any day...

#13 dpb5031

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:13 PM

 PING, on 11 October 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

 hd.softail, on 11 October 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

Love it, thanks so much PING !  

Another thing that confused me was the descending weight comment.  Is the Z-Z65 constant or descending weight?

No problem! The Z-Z65 shaft is constant weight.

I know it is lighter in static weight, but is the CFS "stiff" similar in flex to DG S300 or would I need to have the CFS stiff hard stepped?  Flex/frequency  wise, how does the CFS stiff measure up to DG, Project X and KBS?

#14 TMBob

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:52 PM

 zm231, on 12 October 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

 bell812, on 11 October 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Another reason to play Ping, they answer your questions wherever you are!

I was thinking the same thing. It's really nice to see a company directly reply to a thread on here.

+1  looking to hear more on this shaft as the i20's have my attention and I prefer a lighter weight shaft.

#15 hd.softail

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:38 PM

I hit the Z-Z65 and the CFS Stiff side by side and switched back and forth several times at the range just before ordering the G10's with Z-Z65 soft-stepped once.

PING's suggestion combined with my range session seem to match up that the CFS-Stiff plays a bit softer than the Z-Z65.  Feel otherwise is the same and looking at them I think they are the same shaft with just a bit of adjustment in the tip.  For me, I felt the CFS-Stiff played a little loose and the Z-Z65 a little too stiff so, my best option was CFS-Stiff hard-stepped once or Z-Z65 soft-stepped once which in the end I believe are very close to identical.  I ordered the ZZ because the CFS wasn't offered with the G10.  I went through the Mizuno deal a little while back and my 6i swing speed was about 84 mph.

I think the Z-Z65 gets rated often as a lightweight shaft but I think it's a little above that.  PING lists the CFS and ZZ at something like 109g but that's for a cut 6 iron.  I have to believe the weight and raw length would be around 115g.

For me, the Dynamic Gold S-300 always played a little stiff, felt a little heavy and had a little too low of a flight.  I think the CFS or ZZ stepped correctly gives me exactly what I want in comparison to a DG S-300: slightly softer, lighter but not ultralight and a slightly higher ball flight.


#16 dpb5031

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:36 AM

 hd.softail, on 28 October 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

I hit the Z-Z65 and the CFS Stiff side by side and switched back and forth several times at the range just before ordering the G10's with Z-Z65 soft-stepped once.

PING's suggestion combined with my range session seem to match up that the CFS-Stiff plays a bit softer than the Z-Z65.  Feel otherwise is the same and looking at them I think they are the same shaft with just a bit of adjustment in the tip.  For me, I felt the CFS-Stiff played a little loose and the Z-Z65 a little too stiff so, my best option was CFS-Stiff hard-stepped once or Z-Z65 soft-stepped once which in the end I believe are very close to identical.  I ordered the ZZ because the CFS wasn't offered with the G10.  I went through the Mizuno deal a little while back and my 6i swing speed was about 84 mph.

I think the Z-Z65 gets rated often as a lightweight shaft but I think it's a little above that.  PING lists the CFS and ZZ at something like 109g but that's for a cut 6 iron.  I have to believe the weight and raw length would be around 115g.

For me, the Dynamic Gold S-300 always played a little stiff, felt a little heavy and had a little too low of a flight.  I think the CFS or ZZ stepped correctly gives me exactly what I want in comparison to a DG S-300: slightly softer, lighter but not ultralight and a slightly higher ball flight.

Great response...thank you for sharing your experience.   Just curious, what recommendations did the Mizuno shaft optimizer suggest for you?

#17 hd.softail

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:19 AM

Mizuno recommended DG-S300, KBS Stiff and PX 5.5.  In my opinion all of those playe slightly too stiff for me (I'm coming from Dynalite Gold S-300 which I always felt played a little loose).  If I were to go with any of those options I was going to soft-step once.  

I REALLY liked the KBS but with the balance profile of the shaft causing swingweight issues I had to pass.  I'd really like KBS to come out with an updated version of the KBS that when swapped with DG retains the swingweight.  Otherwise when you take a 120g shaft, lose 2 SWT points and have to add 4g in the tip to get back to D2 what are you really gaining in weight savings, 6 grams?  And beyond that a club that isn't as well balanced as the same shafted with Dynamic Gold.  I agree 1 SWT point makes no difference but putting 4 grams extra purely into the club does change the feel.

KBS clearly saw this fault and fixed it with their new C-Taper though as a low spin player, I liked/needed the extra spin and flight the regular KBS had.

Anyway, I don't change irons ever, the G10s replaced MX-23s so I don't suspect I'll have to worry about irons for at least 5+ years.

Cheers!

#18 dpb5031

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:24 AM

 hd.softail, on 29 October 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Mizuno recommended DG-S300, KBS Stiff and PX 5.5.  In my opinion all of those playe slightly too stiff for me (I'm coming from Dynalite Gold S-300 which I always felt played a little loose).  If I were to go with any of those options I was going to soft-step once.  

I REALLY liked the KBS but with the balance profile of the shaft causing swingweight issues I had to pass.  I'd really like KBS to come out with an updated version of the KBS that when swapped with DG retains the swingweight.  Otherwise when you take a 120g shaft, lose 2 SWT points and have to add 4g in the tip to get back to D2 what are you really gaining in weight savings, 6 grams?  And beyond that a club that isn't as well balanced as the same shafted with Dynamic Gold.  I agree 1 SWT point makes no difference but putting 4 grams extra purely into the club does change the feel.

KBS clearly saw this fault and fixed it with their new C-Taper though as a low spin player, I liked/needed the extra spin and flight the regular KBS had.

Anyway, I don't change irons ever, the G10s replaced MX-23s so I don't suspect I'll have to worry about irons for at least 5+ years.

Cheers!

Interesting...the Mizuno shaft optimizer gave me the same recommendations and we share the same opinion on KBS shafts.  Last year I tried some G15s with KBS stiff, but really did not care for the SGI iron head or the balance of the KBS shafts, so I went back to my i10s.  My SS with the 6 iron is ~85 mph.  I am a 4 handicap and have played i10s with S300s for the past 5 seasons.  I have $1000 pro shop credit to burn, so figured I'd get some new irons.  Also want to try a little lighter shaft with Cushin inserts, both to help with elbow tendonitis.  I'm pretty much settled on S56 irons (after comparing to some other player's irons) and leaning toward CFS stiff flex, hard stepped one time.  I emailed Ping several days ago to try to get some comparative info of the CFS versus PX, DG and KBS, but I have not heard back from them yet.



#19 hd.softail

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 01:42 PM

From what I've been able to gather since the CFS-S and ZZ are the same weight (and seemingly identical step patterns when adjusting the tip length) it seems the following can be suggested:

CFS Stiff = Z-Z65 soft-stepped twice
CFS Stiff hard-stepped once = Z-Z65 soft-stepped once
CFS Stiff hard-stepped twice = Z-Z65

With this information I'd research all of the discussion on the ZZ and figure where to start.  In the end it seems CFS-Stiff hard-stepped once or even twice might be the ticket. That said if you wanted a little more weight you could consider the CFS-X soft-stepped twice.

The beauty in PING for current models is you can order one club and change out the shaft until you get it right.  Once you have the right mix, just tell PING to build the rest of the set to match that serial number.

Good luck, curious to hear what PING says also.

#20 StuartRS

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:15 PM

I had a fitting tonight, hit both the G10 and G20.  Feel and weight (felt heavier) of the G20 was much better than the G10 for me and I hit the centre of the face more often with the G20.

Hit the G20 with both CFS R & S and liked both.  S on the monitor seemed a little more consistent in flight/dispersion and felt a little tighter during the swing.

G20 7 iron stats: Swing speed was 80, Ball speed was 100, launch was 16* (from what I can gather that is pretty good)

I also used the shaft optimiser again.  Last time I clocked around 82/83 mph.  This time clocked 80/81 mph but had a shorter swing, better load, again I was bang in the middle of R&S and again recommendation was Dynalite gold XP S300

Anyone have any idea how the CFS Stiff compare to Dynalite Gold XP S300?

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#21 PBrowne3

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 10:00 PM

Could y'all please explain what all of this "hard stepping" and "soft stepping" "once" and "twice" actually means??   I am totally lost, but would love to learn more about this.  

Love PING by the way.

Thanks

#22 hd.softail

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:20 PM

When dealing with a taper tip iron set, each iron shaft is made to order against a specific iron #.  For example, if you ordered a set of taper tip shafts, you'd receive 8 shafts each assigned to PW, 9i, etc.  When installing, the 9i shaft goes in the 9i club head and is cut to length from the butt end of the shaft.  Taper tip shafts are never trimmed at the tip so you can't "tip" taper tip shafts (well not "never" but that's a whole different can of worms).

So, to soft-step once, take the iron shaft labeled 8i and install it in the 9i.  To soft-step twice, take the 7i shaft and install it in the 9i.  To hard-step once, take the PW and install it in the 9i.  Depending how far down on the wedge end or how high on the 2i/1i end specific shafts are manufactured, determines how many times you can soft/hard step.

The idea is a soft-step makes the tip play a little softer which should increase launch and spin.  Hard-stepping has opposite results: lower launch and lower spin.

#23 Gogs

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 02:15 PM

If I ordered PING irons 4-SW could PING hardstep the UW and SW or would they run out of shafts?

#24 nova6868

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

 Gogs, on 27 November 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

If I ordered PING irons 4-SW could PING hardstep the UW and SW or would they run out of shafts?

Good question. Anyone?

I'm guessing they could hard-step everything but the lob wedge, right?

#25 NPVWhiz

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 08:53 PM

 nova6868, on 02 January 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

 Gogs, on 27 November 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

If I ordered PING irons 4-SW could PING hardstep the UW and SW or would they run out of shafts?

Good question. Anyone?

I'm guessing they could hard-step everything but the lob wedge, right?

It's hard to say without getting the story from Ping.  The CFS is a proprietary shaft, and if Ping had some design input into the shaft and chose to have the manufacturer make and deliver the subflex shafts, then they can hard step one or two times.  But my sense is that the weight difference between the X  and the S doesn't produce the same type of subflexes that DG does between S and X with stepped installations.  I would expect there to be a gap between the two hard S and two soft X installations, because I suspect that the extra weight in the X is related to slightly thicker walls, where DG S and X are virtually identical except for the tip to first step and maybe the additional step at the butt.    

It also depends on the design characteristics of the shaft...what the increment is between the shafts from tip to first step (and even then there is the traditional step/flex characteristic.

Ping seems to be fine with hard and soft installations, but they may take the approach of only going one hard on the S, then sort of meeting in the middle by going two soft from the X...but again, that depends on there being four "steps" (in the taper example for DG) in the subflex range.

Many years ago, you could actually order the shorter shafts from True Temper to do hard steps all the way through the wedges.  When the old standard DG was 35" for the wedges, I think Joe Kwok once mentioned that the 34.5" and the 34" used to be available special order for hard stepping.    I think better players are always better off coming down soft from the X.  

For what it's worth, I've hit the X CFS in the S56, i15, G20 and K15 and I thought it was a pretty solid shaft.  I've been looking for a lighter shaft for several years, but the GS 95 and the 950 Nippon are just too soft in S. I haven't ever had the chance to hit the 950 or 1050 in X, but I have 1150s in S and disliked them.   I've been using 2x soft X100 sensicores at D5 for many, many years and have had trouble finding a lighter weight shaft that behaves like I want at D3 to D5.  

The CFS X was very tight for me...very consistent feeling and the dispersion was excellent when I went after the ball.  I think this could be the right light(er) weight shaft for me, although when I looked at the specs it was slightly heavier than I expected.  Maybe the trimmed weights are in the just sub-110 range.

Edited by NPVWhiz, 02 January 2012 - 08:59 PM.


#26 gripz

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 09:04 PM

FWIW, I was fit on the Mizzy shaft optimizer and play DGS300s in Mizuno JPX 800 Pros. I like the ball flight.  At the PING  factory, I was fit into ZZ-65s 1 degree strong on i15s or G20s. On nFlight 7 iron swing speed was between 90-93 mph. They were meaningfully longer with a slight increase in dispersion vs. CFS.

#27 Nessism

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Posted 02 January 2012 - 09:22 PM

I weighed a few G20 clubs (CFS stiff) and compared them to my G10's (AWT stiff) and the G20's are roughly 5 grams lighter.  The swingweight is same which means the CFS shaft is lighter than AWT.  I don't have a frequency analyzer but the CFS felt softer to me.

Edited by Nessism, 16 January 2013 - 08:19 AM.


#28 realitycheck

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:50 PM

 TMBob, on 28 October 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

 zm231, on 12 October 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

 bell812, on 11 October 2011 - 05:51 PM, said:

Another reason to play Ping, they answer your questions wherever you are!

I was thinking the same thing. It's really nice to see a company directly reply to a thread on here.

+1  looking to hear more on this shaft as the i20's have my attention and I prefer a lighter weight shaft.
I'm in the Same boat Bob.  I need a lightweight, firm shaft.  For someone who hits a 7, 150ish, it's why the "uniflex" shafts work really well for me.  I wish i could zero in on the CFS, (where I would fall in this shaft).

#29 Alexxx

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 08:54 PM

I've fit about 5-6 people this week for new Ping irons who were all previous ping iron players, everyone loved the feel of the cfs especially in the x-stiff.

#30 Tinuke

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

Guys I just picked up an old set of ISI nickels. They have stiff ZZ65s. I have been playing Apex 50s with Stiff Nippon 950GHs. That said I have been playing light shafts and my previous feather weights have been S300 SL, CS life's (in S59s).

Please understand that I believe that there is no consistency in flex determination. It is all feel baby....

So.... To me or IMO the zzs are very stiff, CS Lites and S300 SLs are stiff and the 950s are the least stiff but very very fast snappy.

Tinuke
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