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Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...


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#1 golfbulldog1

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 06:44 AM

For a guy that basically said Hogan had no secret he gave an interesting opinion in the LIfe Magazine article which preceded Hogan's publication....

Posted Image

Does his photo show more than his words??

The words which accompanied this image were:

'Hands never cross.

Sam Snead, who over the years has been Hogan's top rival, is not absolutely sure that Hogan has a secret: "Anybody can say he's got a seret if he won't tell what it is." But if Hogan has a secret, Snead says it could only be one thing: he won't let his right hand cross over his left until long after hitting the ball.

Snead shows the vertical position of Hogan's right hand as it sweeps through the hitting area ..."hand action like this," Snead says,"prevents that hook that bothered old Ben." '

Is the body position which accompanied his hand position a key move? ie. what the photo shows but is not discussed in the image.


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#2 TeeAce

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 06:58 AM

LOL.... Can't believe this happened.

I just wrote my thoughts about secret and meant to open new thread for that when this popped up.

Here is what I wrote yesterday evening:

What happened in those two weeks?

I have been reading and watching hundereds of videos and posts about Hogan secret and more I spend time with that, more sure I am what was his finding. It wasn't one specific move, I rather think it was new way to think whole swing.

First of all we have to go back about 60 years and thik what most of the players tryed to do on those times. It was hitting inside out with quick cross over release. Coming to ball quite steeply etc.  And what was Hogans problem before that secret? Low hooks as he described that they didn't even get in the air at the end. So what about to see things different way and why it's so hard to see from videos before and after secret?

So about everyone at that era was swinging hands to the right and closing club face by rotation. What will happen if You do something really opposite, so take hands in and open the face? Keep the arms triangle open and twist it that way all the time during downswing. Just let the hands follow the rotation of the body and keep the club head behind of hands all the way through and never release it.  Put the maximum speed to the hands instead of the club head, because that (confirmed by Our measurements wit 4DSwing) is the only thing that matters. So simply... rotate the face open instead of closing it!

And why we havn't seen that?  Because all of the videos from his swings are only about 25 fps, so no one can really see what happens in that area what really matters.. about 10 inces before and after the ball. After that other forces makes release happen and it seems like hands are crossing, because they have to, but that just happens later. Just later enough that face can be still slightly open at impact and also at separation point.

That explains also why he said that it will destroy weekend players game, because they don't got pivot good enough to produce power and close the face.

#3 moehogan

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:03 AM

Sam got it right!

#4 tembolo1284

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:08 AM

I think Sam is right....but he's wrong in that it was the main cause.  I think this hands not rolling over was just a result of something else.  What that thing was is anyone's guess.  No way a person, even as talented as Hogan, could play and compete day in day out with an overly handsy move.  The dude had a body pivot driven motion.

Wow...I just called Hogan 'dude'.  Nice.
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#5 Zico Martin

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:37 PM

Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...never let the toe overtake the heel etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.





#6 TeeAce

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 02:00 PM

 Zico Martin, on 30 August 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...never let the toe overtake the heel etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.

For sure they had great pivot and they also kept rotation on through impact.

But Hogan had great pivot also before hi found his secret! And I think it was greatest just before that and he had to find something else made by his hands and arms.

It's also true that those word about keeping the face open has said many times and by many persons, but when?  If Sam says it was Hogans secret, I feel he also says all other players at that time did something else. So what was secret at those years, is not secret any more.

Just my thoughts..

#7 grahler

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 10:47 PM

Hogan's secret was the mental game he was trying to play on his competition LOL :man_in_love:

#8 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:54 AM

 grahler, on 30 August 2011 - 10:47 PM, said:

Hogan's secret was the mental game he was trying to play on his competition LOL :man_in_love:

And that changed that terrible hook for fade in two weeks?

#9 golfbulldog1

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 01:48 AM

Teeace, Hogan's pivot was not so great in the late 1930's...



#10 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 02:19 AM

 golfbulldog1, on 31 August 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

Teeace, Hogan's pivot was not so great in the late 1930's...



I think You just proved my theory.  Look at the right elbow there. That's huge difference!

And I guess we all are talking about that



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#11 dap

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:19 AM

TeeAce,I don't think the opening of the arm/shoulder triangle was his secret.He was doing that in the 1930's already.

The main secret to him learning how to hit a high fade on demand was a weakened grip and what he felt was more cupping in the left wrist at the top.I know it's boring but it's the obvious.He could still rotate and hit as hard as he wanted without worrying about a closed face.

He already had a fantastic swing before 1946.

#12 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:44 AM

 dap, on 31 August 2011 - 04:19 AM, said:

TeeAce,I don't think the opening of the arm/shoulder triangle was his secret.He was doing that in the 1930's already.

The main secret to him learning how to hit a high fade on demand was a weakened grip and what he felt was more cupping in the left wrist at the top.I know it's boring but it's the obvious.He could still rotate and hit as hard as he wanted without worrying about a closed face.

He already had a fantastic swing before 1946.

At least we can see huge difference of that right elbow in golfbulldogs1 video just before impact. Also it's totally different way of thinking at that era and we got Sams words for that.

#13 dap

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 04:54 AM

Those two pics show the swing at different locations.The first one show the ball just about to be hit but the second one show the clubhead still 3 feet away from the ball.I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that comparison.

#14 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:02 AM

 dap, on 31 August 2011 - 04:54 AM, said:

Those two pics show the swing at different locations.The first one show the ball just about to be hit but the second one show the clubhead still 3 feet away from the ball.I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that comparison.

Not only that moment or that video. It works totally differently also after impact.

#15 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:06 AM

teeace where you getting the idea that everyone was agreeing and doing the same swing theory before the 60's, they all argued more back then than they do here, lol.


#16 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 05:25 AM

 JOEGOLFWRX, on 31 August 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

teeace where you getting the idea that everyone was agreeing and doing the same swing theory before the 60's, they all argued more back then than they do here, lol.

From many places. One of the most interesting was personal discussion with John Jacobs about those times few years ago. And You can also see it from swings from 50's and 60's. Mostly upright and with cross over release.

How You think Hogan created that duck hook some other way?

#17 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 07:49 AM

english jacobs or american jacobs ?

re: his hook, ...fundamentally very strong grip and left wrist breakdown imo

#18 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:02 AM

 JOEGOLFWRX, on 31 August 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

english jacobs or american jacobs ?

re: his hook, ...fundamentally very strong grip and left wrist breakdown imo

English. And his books got nothing to do with this. He told about thoughts that players had at that time and I think he met few of those. I remember some great parts of that meeting.

"When I was coaching  Jack (Niklaus) everybody tried to swing inside out. It took me 20 years to get them understand that they were wrong. I knew it because I went so often to see tee boxes after tournaments and all divots except 2 or three were pointing left. So it had to be in to in.

Yes... there was two or three lefties on tour those days ;)

Joegolfwrx: why I can't ever read something like "that might be possible" or "that makes sense "  from Your postings. Or straight arguments followed by justification?

#19 dasbill

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:24 AM

I agree with the OP. A Torso based rotational swing with no hand manipulation will result in the right hand not crossing over the left until later in the follow through. Simple biomechanics and physics.

#20 dap

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 08:57 AM

 dasbill, on 31 August 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

I agree with the OP. A Torso based rotational swing with no hand manipulation will result in the right hand not crossing over the left until later in the follow through. Simple biomechanics and physics.
Agree also but Hogan did that his whole career,not just post secret.

Edited by dap, 31 August 2011 - 08:59 AM.


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#21 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:29 AM

lol, i guess im cantankerous.

#22 markponi

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 09:50 AM

I think they have medicine for that

#23 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 10:26 AM

 JOEGOLFWRX, on 31 August 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

lol, i guess im cantankerous.

Maybe. It's sad, because so many good members has stopped writing by that kind of behave.  Not only You, but generally it's something I don't want to read and at least not to be part of conversations.

#24 MizunoJoe

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:02 AM

 Zico Martin, on 30 August 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...never let the toe overtake the heel etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L.  He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone.  Why is this in the book?  In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings.  Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.



#25 Zico Martin

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:41 AM

 MizunoJoe, on 31 August 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

 Zico Martin, on 30 August 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...never let the toe overtake the heel etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L.  He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone.  Why is this in the book?  In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings.  Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.


It is happening, it's an inevitable outcome IMO...whether it's you intention or otherwise.

I simply suggest that great ballstrikers 'try' to prevent the toe from overtaking the heel, but they don't do it with their arms/hands, they do it with their pivot. That's my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Those diagrams are there in 5L for 'other' reasons, but again...that's only my opinion.

ZM.


#26 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 11:44 AM

 markponi, on 31 August 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

I think they have medicine for that
no the dont, why do you think that, who's they,  LOL.



 TeeAce, on 29 August 2011 - 06:58 AM, said:


So about everyone at that era was swinging hands to the right and closing club face by rotation.

yeah, i just don't believe this statement,

sure there were trends for any given period, but there was constant debate and information passed around on different methods, the english/scotish way vs american way, swinging vs hitting, closed face players vs open face players, shut vs open, and for each way, ways to shape it. so i just dont buy the what's old now was new then stuff.

hogan pre-secret, multiple leading money winner, never had trouble fading it, he had trouble with distance while fading, and his whole game improved fixing it.

#27 MizunoJoe

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:05 PM

 Zico Martin, on 31 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

 MizunoJoe, on 31 August 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

 Zico Martin, on 30 August 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...never let the toe overtake the heel etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L.  He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone.  Why is this in the book?  In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings.  Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.


It is happening, it's an inevitable outcome IMO...whether it's you intention or otherwise.

I simply suggest that great ballstrikers 'try' to prevent the toe from overtaking the heel, but they don't do it with their arms/hands, they do it with their pivot. That's my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Those diagrams are there in 5L for 'other' reasons, but again...that's only my opinion.

ZM.

OK, I can buy that.  I'd like to hear what you think those 'other' reasons are.  Thanks.

#28 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:08 PM

 JOEGOLFWRX, on 31 August 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:



hogan pre-secret, multiple leading money winner, never had trouble fading it, he had trouble with distance while fading, and his whole game improved fixing it.

So You didn't even watch the interview? " I was hooking so badly I couldn't get ...."

This is getting crazy...

#29 TeeAce

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:15 PM

 Zico Martin, on 31 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:


It is happening, it's an inevitable outcome IMO...whether it's you intention or otherwise.

I simply suggest that great ballstrikers 'try' to prevent the toe from overtaking the heel, but they don't do it with their arms/hands, they do it with their pivot. That's my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Those diagrams are there in 5L for 'other' reasons, but again...that's only my opinion.

ZM.

Exactly. Only thing player can do is to delay it, but it happens anyway. It will close more by passive hands, too much I think, and to keep it open / straight they have to rotate opposite way like "prevent the toe from overtaking the heel"  

Without hi-speed cameras and devices we got today, it was impossible to see the difference by naked eye or from videos. When You find it, it's easy to find common positions for that movement also from other parts of the body. For example with our device together with flightscope it has been very obvious

#30 JOEGOLFWRX

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:49 PM

do you think the no1 player in the world didnt know how to fade it ?

"i tried all the conventional cures" ..."they all worked" ..."but in the process they cut down my distance"


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