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8620 Steel VS. 1020 Steel


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#1 HitTheGreen

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:22 PM

In the market for a new set of sticks and after hitting a few different brands I've found that I love the feel of forged clubs. I've been playing a set of Ping S58's and am looking to get into a set of Mizuno MP-63's or Adams a12's. I noticed that they both claim to be forged but use different types of metals. Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the steels that each of these manufacturers use?


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#2 MTNEER MAN

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 04:30 PM

The lower the first two numbers are the softer the metal is. I think........

#3 FairwayFred

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.
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#4 Nessism

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:51 PM

8620 is a stronger alloy than 1020, so it may have a harder feel but will not wear down as fast.  As already mentioned, it's typically cast, although some companies are getting inventive with their "pressing" operations after casting by claiming the club heads are "forged".  Don't misunderstand though, 8620 is a soft steel, just not as soft as some others.

Edited by Nessism, 16 April 2014 - 09:05 AM.


#5 Llortamaisey

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

Webster's gives us two definitions for the term "forged".

1. Metal shaping technique.
2. A false representation.

So even though some companies do not shape their irons by forging, they are still using the term within it's other definition. Sneaky sneaky.

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.


#6 lewis17web

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:08 PM

That is funny but true.

#7 HITMANACTUAL

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostKing Kobra, on 29 July 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

Webster's gives us two definitions for the term "forged".

1. Metal shaping technique.
2. A false representation.

So even though some companies do not shape their irons by forging, they are still using the term within it's other definition. Sneaky sneaky.

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.


that is sneaky!!  

what is the diff from form forged and a regular forging?

#8 Ace2424

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:49 PM

View PostHITMANACTUAL, on 31 July 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

View PostKing Kobra, on 29 July 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

Webster's gives us two definitions for the term "forged".

1. Metal shaping technique.
2. A false representation.

So even though some companies do not shape their irons by forging, they are still using the term within it's other definition. Sneaky sneaky.

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.


that is sneaky!!  

what is the diff from form forged and a regular forging?

I believe form forged means the clubs are cast in the shape of a club the pressed 1 or 2 times. Whereas "regular" forged begins with a single block of steel and is stamped around 7 times to form the club.........

#9 Rohlio

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 10:53 PM

View PostKing Kobra, on 29 July 2011 - 08:02 PM, said:

Webster's gives us two definitions for the term "forged".

1. Metal shaping technique.
2. A false representation.

So even though some companies do not shape their irons by forging, they are still using the term within it's other definition. Sneaky sneaky.

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.


Post of the year candidate...if either of you had written both parts of this you would have won it hands down...may have to nominate you for "Best Supporting Post"

#10 duffer888

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 12:28 AM

In older times, cold forging produced the strongest product, but it required alot of energy and force.  I think somewhere in the early ninties, hot forging started to appear in consumer products (at least in high end bicycle components) and replaced cold forging, as it required less energy and force, thus lowering production cost.  But hot forging doesn't produce as strong a product.

My guess is most, if not all 10xx forged is hot forged nowadays.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a consumer product that advertised cold forging, golf included.  Also, my guess is that Mizuno's form forged is a hot forging process, as you see the hot billet in their ads.

Does it make a noticable difference in golf?  I don't know.  It probably doesn't make a performance difference for me.  But, nothing beats the feel of a pured shot from an iron made of forged 1020 carbon steel.

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#11 CallMeStitch

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

View Postduffer888, on 01 August 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

In older times, cold forging produced the strongest product, but it required alot of energy and force.  I think somewhere in the early ninties, hot forging started to appear in consumer products (at least in high end bicycle components) and replaced cold forging, as it required less energy and force, thus lowering production cost.  But hot forging doesn't produce as strong a product.

My guess is most, if not all 10xx forged is hot forged nowadays.  I can't remember the last time I've seen a consumer product that advertised cold forging, golf included.  Also, my guess is that Mizuno's form forged is a hot forging process, as you see the hot billet in their ads.

Does it make a noticable difference in golf?  I don't know.  It probably doesn't make a performance difference for me.  But, nothing beats the feel of a pured shot from an iron made of forged 1020 carbon steel.

You've probably obtained your answer by now but I did some research and a Youtube video conducted by a big-wig from Mizuno who describes their process used at the Hiroshima production plant; although I can't shed light upon the difference between "cold forged", "form forged", etc. It did offer an excellent explanation of the benefit of forged irons vs. cast irons: Casting is the process of taking metal in liquid form and setting/pressing/mashing/molding it into a solid, whereas forging begins with solid metal that is super-heated to make it pliable. The difference is that casting produces 2 potential flaws that translate into the (lack of) feel they produce: 1. Shrinkage is inevitable (insert puns here as desired); 2. It produces miniscule pockets of trapped air, "bubbles" and/or other imperfections on account.

#12 RogerinNewZealand

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:08 PM

The Key thing is how they Feel at Impact to YOU......
Both can feel great to different people.
I currently use Vokey Wedges......
I found Titleist 710 MB forged irons mid winter to lack feel vs Mizuno etc.
8620 will last longer if you play Every Day !!
Been through the Mizuno is softest thing..no Mizuno in my bag right now !
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#13 CallawayKid86

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:14 PM

I play 8620 wedges from Scratch and have been playing forged irons for years. To me, the best feeling clubs in my bag are my wedges. One of the main reasons I have not switched to the 1018 model from Scratch as of yet. The 8620 are just that darn good for me.
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#14 Swingingk

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:44 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.

Steel is the word used for material made mostly from the element Iron.  "Mild Steel" is the term for Steel that has very few other alloying elements and it's designation number typically begins with 10.  The second two numbers show how much carbon is in the metal - the higher the number, the more carbon and the more carbon there is the harder it can be made.  Steels can be either Hardened or Annealed.  If a steel such as 1040 is heated to a particular temperature and then cooled quickly, it will become hard.  If that same steel is heated and then cooled very slowly it will be as soft as it can be, or "annealed".  Even 1080 steel is quite soft annealed but has a high hardenability - not a high hardness.  A knife blade is easy to work until hardened.
Now if we add some more elements to the mix (such as chromium or vanadium) we get "Alloy Steel".  Various elements are added for different reasons, but typically it is for strength or hardenability.  The steel alloy 8620 is very much a real thing and not some kind of golf industry fabrication.   8620 is much like 1020 but does have a smidgeon of Nickel and a dolop of Chromium to make it slightly stronger.  It is real and does exist.  Also, any steel may be melted and poured into a mold or "cast".

Forging is the act of "hot working" material into a shape and usually allows a nice flow of grain through the material.  "Cold forging" or cold-working a material will promote work-hardening and usually increases the hardness as well as the strength.  Casting steels does not promote more or less flaws in it than forging does.  I've seen just as many inclusions and flaws in forgings as I have castings - maybe more.  What casting DOES do is turn steel into a particular shape much faster than forging does and is therefore much less expensive to produce.  Also, castings may be somewhat weaker due to the lack or organized grain in the material.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion.  


#15 CallMeStitch

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:45 PM

View PostSwingingk, on 16 April 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 29 July 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

1020 is a true carbon steel while 8620 is a steel alloy that is not carbon steel but shares some properties (like rusting) of real carbon steel.  "8620 Carbon Steel" does not really exist and is a marketing term coined by the golf industry.  Any steel with 4 numbers that starts with 10 is a true carbon steel.  For example 1018, 1020, 1025, 1030 are all used in forgings and cannot be cast.  Clubs that are made from 8620 steel are typically cast (like our Scratch 8620 wedge or a Vokey wedge) or "form forged" (like some Cleveland wedges or any club made from 8620 steel that says its Forged).  I do not know of any golf clubs made from 8620 that are truly forged like a 10 series true carbon steel.  The second 2 numbers are the carbon content of the steel and the lower that number the softer the steel.  So 1020 and 8620 have similar carbon content but otherwise are very different and 1020 carbon steel is softer than 1025 or 1030 etc.

Steel is the word used for material made mostly from the element Iron.  "Mild Steel" is the term for Steel that has very few other alloying elements and it's designation number typically begins with 10.  The second two numbers show how much carbon is in the metal - the higher the number, the more carbon and the more carbon there is the harder it can be made.  Steels can be either Hardened or Annealed.  If a steel such as 1040 is heated to a particular temperature and then cooled quickly, it will become hard.  If that same steel is heated and then cooled very slowly it will be as soft as it can be, or "annealed".  Even 1080 steel is quite soft annealed but has a high hardenability - not a high hardness.  A knife blade is easy to work until hardened.
Now if we add some more elements to the mix (such as chromium or vanadium) we get "Alloy Steel".  Various elements are added for different reasons, but typically it is for strength or hardenability.  The steel alloy 8620 is very much a real thing and not some kind of golf industry fabrication.   8620 is much like 1020 but does have a smidgeon of Nickel and a dolop of Chromium to make it slightly stronger.  It is real and does exist.  Also, any steel may be melted and poured into a mold or "cast".

Forging is the act of "hot working" material into a shape and usually allows a nice flow of grain through the material.  "Cold forging" or cold-working a material will promote work-hardening and usually increases the hardness as well as the strength.  Casting steels does not promote more or less flaws in it than forging does.  I've seen just as many inclusions and flaws in forgings as I have castings - maybe more.  What casting DOES do is turn steel into a particular shape much faster than forging does and is therefore much less expensive to produce.  Also, castings may be somewhat weaker due to the lack or organized grain in the material.

Hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion.  

Great information, thank you! I've heard it said the same as you did that there is no difference in imperfections between forged vs. cast clubs. My opinion/writing above was strongly compelled by a video I watched MC'd by a high ranking (CEO? ExO?) of Mizuno, complete with electon-microscopic cross-sections of cast steel. I'm sure you'll agree, much of what we hear and learn is vastly influenced by the vested interests of the presenter(s).

Still, it is impossible for me to ignore, in my admittedly short-but-deeply-immersed time in the golf world, that forged irons clearly have a different feel than the great vast majority of cast irons, to me.

I will say there have been some stand-outs that have proven themselves to have feel incredibly similar to forged irons, notably the Cleveland CG-16 Tour 7-Iron that I demo'd earlier today. In a way it did seem like the best of "both worlds", meaning a marriage of GI Iron-type forgiveness (like those that tout multi-compounds, dampeners, perimeter weighting, inserts, etc.) with "player/forged-iron" feel and feedback. In short, well-stuck shots had tremendous, warm and gratifying feel (with results to equal: a penetrating ball flight), whereas mishits at the toe or some such let me feel the mistake like a forging, but did not make me pay for it (meaning they barely left target laterally or by yardage).

Still, it's the first time so far in my memory that I can say I had such an experience, which renews the question of why forged irons feel so different (and good, in my estimation...or bad, depending on how well the strike is made) vs. even the most popular, high-end cast irons of the world touting more cavities than a sugar-crazed adolescent and polymers than a NASA vehicle??


#16 CallMeStitch

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:55 PM

...and a point of note: IMHO the most buttery, beautiful-feeling irons on the "new" market today are the Wilson Staff FG Tour v2, which happen to be 8620 steel forgings. Before them I thought the Callaway X-Forged 2013 irons were the bee's knees, and I chalked up the difference to the use of KBS Tour shafts stock in the FG Tours...until I A/B compared the stock Wilson Staff against the X-forged but with a KBS Tour shaft...result = advantage Wilson Staff.

#17 Swoosh-Thud

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

On paper and especially on golf forums there is a huge difference between the two.

In reality- no difference whatsoever.

Club head design has more of an effect on feel. As does hitting the sweet spot on a regular basis.

And if you're truly a good golfer for real (on the course and not in a forum) and you hit the sweet spot on a regular basis, any difference in feel (both real and imagined) between forged v cast comes secondary to club performance- again design takes top billing.

Edited by Swoosh-Thud, 17 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.

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