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If You Owned/Operated a Golf Course


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#1 C Brown

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:06 PM

First time poster.   I'm an 10 handicap that was once a 5, mostly because I went from playing 3 rounds per week to playing 3 rounds per month.  The main reason I don't play as much is that I went from playing at a small-town country club where 18 holes could be finished in about 3 hours to living in a big city where the private clubs are too expensive and the public tracks are packed.  

Case in point, a friend and I played a public course this past weekend and were paired with two women in their mid-50's   It only took one hole to figure out that they were both pretty new to the game.   They each whiffed, topped or chunked 2-3 shots. The round took almost 6 hours, and there is no way either one of these gals broke 130.   The course played 6,405 yards from the ladies' tees.  They had no business playing a course that long.  
  
It got me thinking about how I would run a course if I were in charge.   The very first thing I would to is eliminate the connection between tee boxes and both gender and age.  Men, no matter how bad they are, will not play the "ladies'" tees. Their ego will not let them.   In fact, just get rid of red tees entirely.   No "senior" tees either.   Nobody wants to be reminded that they are old.  They know it already.  

Tee boxes should be distinguished by difficulty.   Less than 20% of golfers have handicaps and .002% understand slope and rating, so keep it simple.  I would post a sign on the way to the first tee that says "Which tees should I play?"

Black:   Experts Only.  For golfers who regularly break 80.
Copper:   Advanced.   For golfers who regularly break 90.
Silver:       Intermediate.  For golfers who regularly break 100.
Gold:     Beginners.  For those who are new to the game.

I would also put some serious distance between the tees.   The current thinking is that their needs to be a "tee box."    Nonsense.  The tees can (and should be) in the fairway for beginning and intermediate players.   A 30 handicap should never face a 450 yard par 4 simply so the all the tees can be on a mound of well-groomed dirt.   The back/championship tees can be as far back a the course wants them, but the beginner tees should cut the course down to about 5,000 yards.  

That's my rant.   What would you do to speed up play and grow the game of golf if you were in charge?


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#2 Blaiser

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:24 PM

I actually kind of like this. Almost like how they rate ski slopes. Beginners don't have any problem going down the "easy" ski slope since they are new. But I bet if those easy ski slopes were referred to as "ladies" or "little kids" then the ego would come in. So I think there is some merit to your suggestion.


What I really think they should do is make people get certified to play. Not exactly sure what the best method would be for that, but I see a few options:
1. Make each new golfer to that course watch a tutorial video, or get a briefing by a staff member on how to play at an acceptable pace. Pace of play shouldn't and isn't predicated just on skill level, but it has a lot to do with just general awareness on how to go about playing. They do this with a lot of other activities, like rock-climbing - now obviously those are more for safety precautions, but I think this could still work.




2. Get certified by proving you can play fast enough at a "qualifier" course. Since everyone has smart phone, you could probably just have people check in at certain holes to show they are at a correct pace of play. Or set up some sort of check in service. *The issue here would be how do you know it isn't the group ahead of you that is slowing you down* But there are a lot of possibilities for that too.




3. The exact idea of the OP. "Tee it forward" has some merit, and I think changing the stigma of the front tees can help.

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#3 EnglishBob

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:33 PM

Ban cell phones from the premises, leave it in the car or go home!

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#4 apprenti23

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:00 PM

So, what are you going to do to regulate it? Just playing devil's advocate, but 99% of all golfers either can't or don't read signs (cart path only, 90* rule, etc) and what're you going to do when they want to play X tee box, but  obviously aren't good enough? Kick em off the course? Give them their money back and say they're no longer welcome?

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#5 Blaiser

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 02:19 AM

View Postapprenti23, on 27 July 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

So, what are you going to do to regulate it? Just playing devil's advocate, but 99% of all golfers either can't or don't read signs (cart path only, 90* rule, etc) and what're you going to do when they want to play X tee box, but  obviously aren't good enough? Kick em off the course? Give them their money back and say they're no longer welcome?

Yep! haha

I think that slow play is a bigger deal than people are making it out to be. Its literally ruining the experience for everyone else on the course - well, at least the people behind the slow players. This isn't allowed in other places in life. Example, if I am being obnoxious at a restaurant and annoying most of the people in the place, I am kicked out! And should be. I think that the penalty for slow play should result in removal from the course. And if you are a multiple time offender, maybe be banned.

I know some people may say thats crazy and I am a jerk, but I think its reasonable. It's not discriminating against anyone. Skill has little to do with time on the course. I guess there could be an argument for people that need special accommodations and for that I don't really have an answer. I just think its unacceptable to let one slow group ruin an experience for everyone else on the course.

I would love a course that would guarantee me a 3.5 hour round. And if people don't like that pace - don't play there.


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#6 TheDarkOne

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

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#7 C Brown

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:36 PM

View Postapprenti23, on 27 July 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

So, what are you going to do to regulate it? Just playing devil's advocate, but 99% of all golfers either can't or don't read signs (cart path only, 90* rule, etc) and what're you going to do when they want to play X tee box, but  obviously aren't good enough? Kick em off the course? Give them their money back and say they're no longer welcome?

That's why I think a good start is to change the psychology of the tee box.   One of the dumbest things the golfing establishment ever did was to create a ladies' tee box.   No man, regardless of experience or ability, will play the red tees.  My first goal as an operator would be to start getting players to associate tees with ability level.

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#8 hef63303

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:52 PM

View PostC Brown, on 27 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

First time poster.   I'm an 10 handicap that was once a 5, mostly because I went from playing 3 rounds per week to playing 3 rounds per month.  The main reason I don't play as much is that I went from playing at a small-town country club where 18 holes could be finished in about 3 hours to living in a big city where the private clubs are too expensive and the public tracks are packed.  

Case in point, a friend and I played a public course this past weekend and were paired with two women in their mid-50's   It only took one hole to figure out that they were both pretty new to the game.   They each whiffed, topped or chunked 2-3 shots. The round took almost 6 hours, and there is no way either one of these gals broke 130.   The course played 6,405 yards from the ladies' tees.  They had no business playing a course that long.  
  
It got me thinking about how I would run a course if I were in charge.   The very first thing I would to is eliminate the connection between tee boxes and both gender and age.  Men, no matter how bad they are, will not play the "ladies'" tees. Their ego will not let them.   In fact, just get rid of red tees entirely.   No "senior" tees either.   Nobody wants to be reminded that they are old.  They know it already.  

Tee boxes should be distinguished by difficulty.   Less than 20% of golfers have handicaps and .002% understand slope and rating, so keep it simple.  I would post a sign on the way to the first tee that says "Which tees should I play?"

Black:   Experts Only.  For golfers who regularly break 80.
Copper:   Advanced.   For golfers who regularly break 90.
Silver:       Intermediate.  For golfers who regularly break 100.
Gold:     Beginners.  For those who are new to the game.

I would also put some serious distance between the tees.   The current thinking is that their needs to be a "tee box."    Nonsense.  The tees can (and should be) in the fairway for beginning and intermediate players.   A 30 handicap should never face a 450 yard par 4 simply so the all the tees can be on a mound of well-groomed dirt.   The back/championship tees can be as far back a the course wants them, but the beginner tees should cut the course down to about 5,000 yards.  

That's my rant.   What would you do to speed up play and grow the game of golf if you were in charge?
Many courses have tried this with little or no success.

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#9 larrybud

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:38 AM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You and your 3 friends I'm sure would enjoy a nice empty golf course... until the money ran out, that is!

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#10 larrybud

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:42 AM

I definitely like the idea of getting rid of naming the tee boxes the "ladies tees".   I would also get rid of the standard color scheme.  Stick the white tees at the front, and the reds at the back.   Or as my course does it, use "shapes".  The spheres are the back tees, the pyramids the next one up, the cubes the one up in front of that, and then some polygon at the very front.

I would rate all the tee boxes for both men and women, and if you really want people to move up, then stick another tee box in front of the previously named "ladies" tees.

Granted, this would take some investment to build some new tee boxes.  If they're haphazardly stuck at the start of the fairway, it's not going to cut it.


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#11 From_Parts_Unknown

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:37 AM

There are a few courses in my area that suggest tees based on your scores rather than age or gender.  In theory, it's a good way to solve a lot of problems.  

The only issue is that I know a lot of guys who shoot in the high 60's to low 70's that have no business playing a 7,000 yard course.  I also know a lot of guys who can't break 90 who have no business playing from 6,000 yards.

I guess you are damned if you do, damned if you did.

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#12 indyslongest

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:26 PM

I'm a fan of modeling it after ski ratings, and hell, why not even use the same markings?  Novice, More Difficult, Most Difficult, and my personal favorite (referring only to the signage, I'm not that great of a skier) Double Black. Maybe through some ridiculous imagery to scare them off. You know, like 250 yard forced carries, slices will assuredly result in a lost golf ball, not for the faint of heart, experts only.


(Kind of like at the Castle Rock chair lift at Sugar Bush)

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#13 magicmatt

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 10:35 PM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.
enjoy you surefire failure of a business idea




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#14 lvphil702

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:35 PM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You better open this course near Salt Lake City to have even a shot at success.  




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#15 reywalwen

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 06:26 PM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

LOVE IT!  Posted Image  many courses in the UK do not have carts - but they have forecaddies which really speeds play, e.g. Old Course @ St. Andrews.


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#16 rvgolfer

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 07:27 PM

I am a bit confused why the round actually took 6 hours.  If in fact it was the two women who were playing slow, why didnt you just break into a two some and leave them behind? There had to be open holes in front of you that would have allowed you to play at your normal pace.  Or was the course actually packed, and even though they were beginning golfers and playing slow, and there wasnt open holes in front of you?  

As long as the green fee rate is the same for the various tees, you will have some groups that wont willingly play shorter yardages that match their skill level, however, if the rates were actually different, more groups would play shorter yardages to get a lower rate.  The problem is that golf courses dont want to offer a lower fee as an incentive, they'd rather have the revenue.

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#17 andef

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 07:28 PM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.


Mostly agree with this post although I would make a couple of changes:
1. Carts allowed for those who can't walk the round. Don't want to walk? Fine, go play somewhere else. Medical reason, perfectly okay then.
2. Allow smoking to start off, but make sure everyone knows that if I find butts on the course, smoking is banned.
3. Alcohol sold in the clubhouse only after the round. Pace of play is slow enough, I don't want drunk golfers taking even more time...
Unfortunately, there's no way your 3 rules would work here in Italy. People smoke too much, always have a drink after their round and there are too many lazy bums that use carts.

But then again, if I had enough money to own a golf course, it would only be a non-work related business. So I would be okay with making some losses and have an entire course to myself and those who want to enjoy a good round of golf. The losses would be covered by profits in my work related firms, so it would all work out. By the time the news has spread, the course will become and success and those initial losses will turn into profits. It's all about having enough financial resources / backing to support the losses which will accompany the first few years.


Edited by andef, 17 December 2011 - 07:34 PM.


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#18 TxFrog

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 07:33 PM

I like the Idea of getting rid of tee names such as "tips", "seniors", "ladies". I also would like to see courses requiring to see a handicap, and be at least under 10 to play any tees over 7000 yards.

No carts could work in some areas, but in Texas in 100F+ heat you will probably only get 2 groups all day.

I agree with the no smoking, since it can cause damage to course. But no alcohol would be a killer, a better idea would be to limit amount of beer purchased.

The best Idea would have all groups teeing off from sunrise till 9 play in 3:30 and enforce it stricter than the rest of the day. Also let everyone making a tee time aware that there is a 3:30 pace of play.

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#19 Bad9

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:23 AM

View PostBlaiser, on 28 July 2011 - 02:19 AM, said:

View Postapprenti23, on 27 July 2011 - 09:00 PM, said:

So, what are you going to do to regulate it? Just playing devil's advocate, but 99% of all golfers either can't or don't read signs (cart path only, 90* rule, etc) and what're you going to do when they want to play X tee box, but  obviously aren't good enough? Kick em off the course? Give them their money back and say they're no longer welcome?

Yep! haha

I think that slow play is a bigger deal than people are making it out to be. Its literally ruining the experience for everyone else on the course - well, at least the people behind the slow players. This isn't allowed in other places in life. Example, if I am being obnoxious at a restaurant and annoying most of the people in the place, I am kicked out! And should be. I think that the penalty for slow play should result in removal from the course. And if you are a multiple time offender, maybe be banned.

I know some people may say thats crazy and I am a jerk, but I think its reasonable. It's not discriminating against anyone. Skill has little to do with time on the course. I guess there could be an argument for people that need special accommodations and for that I don't really have an answer. I just think its unacceptable to let one slow group ruin an experience for everyone else on the course.

I would love a course that would guarantee me a 3.5 hour round. And if people don't like that pace - don't play there.

I agree with you 100%. The slowest players I know are not the unskilled golfers. It is generally the pretty good players who are the slowest.
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#20 5 O'Clock Charlie

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:36 AM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You wouldn't be able to pay the bills after a few months and would be broke.  # 1 and #3 are your two biggest sources of revenue.  Why do you think they make people ride at certain courses?  It's not to speed up play.  I worked at a course that was in a "Dry County" that worked hard to get resort status, just so it could sell alcohol.  It's huge on the bottom line.
I agree with #2, as it has no bearing on revenue.

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#21 Dlondon

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 08:48 AM

Make sure my rangers were well trained and same with my starter.

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#22 statepgm

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 09:23 AM

View Post5 O, on 20 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You wouldn't be able to pay the bills after a few months and would be broke.  # 1 and #3 are your two biggest sources of revenue.  Why do you think they make people ride at certain courses?  It's not to speed up play.  I worked at a course that was in a "Dry County" that worked hard to get resort status, just so it could sell alcohol.  It's huge on the bottom line.
I agree with #2, as it has no bearing on revenue.

Alcohol is small potato's in total revenue.  It might be the catalyst that makes F&B come close to breaking even, but its a small contributor to revenue.

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#23 swbyps

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:32 AM

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

1. Do serious golfers not use carts? Was the game intended to be played while walking? Yea it sure was...back when the technology didnt exist to make carts..or metal woods..and they used mounds of dirt as tees. Football was intended to be played without helmets too.
2. Do serious golfers not smoke? I would agree that butts and cigar remnants shouldnt be all over the course, but neither should candy wrappers, discarded gloves, packaging from balls, receipts, scorecards, etc. Isnt there a pic of Hogan and Arnie chillin on the tee box smokin it up? Those guys were pretty serious golfers. I wonder if they ran back to the clubhouse to put those butts in an ashtray.
3. Do serious golfers not drink? I could actually see something like this but more like having established limits to the amount sold to an individual while on the course. Eliminating it all together...thats not going to work and you know it.

Rather than a course, I think I would like to have a golf practice center. Not just some range, but a top notch first class facility dedicated to practice. The range itself would include the regular grass hitting area and a covered area where your hit off mats. Protected bunkers along the side of the full range where you can practice fairway bunker shots. Indoor hitting into nets. Would have different sets of practice greens. One green dedicated to greenside bunker shots. A couple greens where you can practice greenside shots and others where you can hit 20-30-40 yard shots in. A huge practice putting green and possibly another 18 hole putting course. Along with that, maybe have 3 to 6 practice holes of no longer than 130yds. Premium practice balls. Try to come in at like $75 a month for all you can hit.

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#24 TheDarkOne

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:32 AM

View Post5 O, on 20 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You wouldn't be able to pay the bills after a few months and would be broke.  # 1 and #3 are your two biggest sources of revenue.  Why do you think they make people ride at certain courses?  It's not to speed up play.  I worked at a course that was in a "Dry County" that worked hard to get resort status, just so it could sell alcohol.  It's huge on the bottom line.
I agree with #2, as it has no bearing on revenue.

I disagree. I think that the course you would be offering to people would be so unique you could charge more and have a much better clientèle that would be willing to frequent your course to be away from the non sense that happens on most courses now. It would be a mecca for serious golfers who don't want to have to tolerate the drunks, disgusting filthy smokers, and other distractions that take away from the game itself.

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#25 hef63303

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:53 AM

View Poststatepgm, on 20 December 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

View Post5 O, on 20 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

You wouldn't be able to pay the bills after a few months and would be broke.  # 1 and #3 are your two biggest sources of revenue.  Why do you think they make people ride at certain courses?  It's not to speed up play.  I worked at a course that was in a "Dry County" that worked hard to get resort status, just so it could sell alcohol.  It's huge on the bottom line.
I agree with #2, as it has no bearing on revenue.

Alcohol is small potato's in total revenue.  It might be the catalyst that makes F&B come close to breaking even, but its a small contributor to revenue.
Not at the courses I play. Many players spend more on alcohol than on greens fees. Especially if the cute cart girl is working.

Edited by hef63303, 20 December 2011 - 10:54 AM.


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#26 hef63303

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 10:56 AM

View Postswbyps, on 20 December 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

1. Do serious golfers not use carts? Was the game intended to be played while walking? Yea it sure was...back when the technology didnt exist to make carts..or metal woods..and they used mounds of dirt as tees. Football was intended to be played without helmets too.
2. Do serious golfers not smoke? I would agree that butts and cigar remnants shouldnt be all over the course, but neither should candy wrappers, discarded gloves, packaging from balls, receipts, scorecards, etc. Isnt there a pic of Hogan and Arnie chillin on the tee box smokin it up? Those guys were pretty serious golfers. I wonder if they ran back to the clubhouse to put those butts in an ashtray.
3. Do serious golfers not drink? I could actually see something like this but more like having established limits to the amount sold to an individual while on the course. Eliminating it all together...thats not going to work and you know it.

Rather than a course, I think I would like to have a golf practice center. Not just some range, but a top notch first class facility dedicated to practice. The range itself would include the regular grass hitting area and a covered area where your hit off mats. Protected bunkers along the side of the full range where you can practice fairway bunker shots. Indoor hitting into nets. Would have different sets of practice greens. One green dedicated to greenside bunker shots. A couple greens where you can practice greenside shots and others where you can hit 20-30-40 yard shots in. A huge practice putting green and possibly another 18 hole putting course. Along with that, maybe have 3 to 6 practice holes of no longer than 130yds. Premium practice balls. Try to come in at like $75 a month for all you can hit.
A range like this would need 400 members at $200 a month to just cover costs.

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#27 armydiver

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:21 AM

Its a tough nut to crack. People on both sides of the slow play issue both have a legitimate claim to their perspective. One side thinks they should not be rushed and by virtue of paying the green fee, they have the right to play the course however they see fit. On some level they are right to think that. Who am I to say what anyone else should do or what tees I think they should play from? On the other side of the issue is the pace of play crowd (the group I am most empathetic with) who feels that it is wrong for others take an excessive (subjective) amount of time to play the game because it affects everyone on the course and not just your group. Of course this point of  view is just as legitimate. Every golf course has to do some cost / benifit analysis to determine which course of action will have the best results for them. If enforcing a pace of play is likely to drive away more customers than it retains, then the answer is pretty clear on what should be done. However, when a round takes more than five hours and a marshall or ranger is not doing anything about it or better yet preventing it, I fail to see how that makes sense in any way. Even if you have people lined up and every tee time is always booked; the course is doing itself a disservice. They simply earn less money that way, unless I am missing something.

If i were an owner I would conduct a study to determine the effect that rigid enforcement of pace of play would have on the bottom line. If it equals bigger profits then that is course of action I would take. I would spot check rangers, starters, etc. to ensure they are enforcing pace of play as well. If it was determined that I would lose business with this model then I would back off of the pace of play and look for ways to to keep the pace of play crowd satisfied and not so focused on the face that they are spending five plus hours to play a round of golf. multiple drink carts with unabashedly good looking cart girls a la Hooters comes to mind. Maybe some kind of game at each tee box like trivia or something that each group can play and takes their mind off the wait. Of course if this were the case I would not play my own course and would probably be found a private club.



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#28 CallawayLefty

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 11:38 AM

View Posthef63303, on 20 December 2011 - 10:56 AM, said:

View Postswbyps, on 20 December 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostTheDarkOne, on 28 July 2011 - 02:44 AM, said:

If I owned a course, it would be amazing but a few things would make it unique in this day in age....

1. No carts allowed. No exceptions, point blank no carts allowed.

2. Absolutely no smoking. I don't care if it's cigarettes, cigars, weed whatever, no smoking. I'm sick of you goofs starting fires in the trash cans and leaving butts and gross chewed up cigars around the course. It's sickening.  

3. No alcohol would be sold or consumed.

My course would be for people who wanted to play golf seriously and not be bothered by constant buffoonery. There will always be a million other courses for that. Just having one place to go that was walkers only and smoke and booze free would be like paradise. I can guarantee that if you could make it work financially, it would attract the best golfers for hundreds of miles.

1. Do serious golfers not use carts? Was the game intended to be played while walking? Yea it sure was...back when the technology didnt exist to make carts..or metal woods..and they used mounds of dirt as tees. Football was intended to be played without helmets too.
2. Do serious golfers not smoke? I would agree that butts and cigar remnants shouldnt be all over the course, but neither should candy wrappers, discarded gloves, packaging from balls, receipts, scorecards, etc. Isnt there a pic of Hogan and Arnie chillin on the tee box smokin it up? Those guys were pretty serious golfers. I wonder if they ran back to the clubhouse to put those butts in an ashtray.
3. Do serious golfers not drink? I could actually see something like this but more like having established limits to the amount sold to an individual while on the course. Eliminating it all together...thats not going to work and you know it.

Rather than a course, I think I would like to have a golf practice center. Not just some range, but a top notch first class facility dedicated to practice. The range itself would include the regular grass hitting area and a covered area where your hit off mats. Protected bunkers along the side of the full range where you can practice fairway bunker shots. Indoor hitting into nets. Would have different sets of practice greens. One green dedicated to greenside bunker shots. A couple greens where you can practice greenside shots and others where you can hit 20-30-40 yard shots in. A huge practice putting green and possibly another 18 hole putting course. Along with that, maybe have 3 to 6 practice holes of no longer than 130yds. Premium practice balls. Try to come in at like $75 a month for all you can hit.
A range like this would need 400 members at $200 a month to just cover costs.


Ahh, but in fact it does exist in my old hometown.  Look up Fairways and Greens in Knoxville, Tennessee on the internet.  It's a spectacular place that is exactly what the poster described.  On things he missed were that it includes a gym, a restaurant, a 3 hole golf course, and an indoor putting green (maybe 2 actually now that I think about it).  And their indoor greens were some really high end type that putting like perfection.  Don't remember it costing $200, but that was 7 or 8 years ago.  By the way, they also have an instructor there that I would put right up there with slicefixer.  When I decided to start traveling to see a pro, I picked between slice and him.  His name is Randy Wylie.  Look him up!

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#29 farmer

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:28 PM

If I was going to own a course with the intention of making money, there are some things I would do.  I would insist on carts.  I would have big wide fairways with very light rough so balls would be easy to find.  The bunkers would be shallow and it would be possible to putt out of them.  There would be no blind shots or water hazards directly in play.  It would be a stand alone course, with no housing inside the course.  The greens would have only moderate slopes, would be of moderate speed and small enough that two putting would be routine, with puttable collars.  There would be no tees longer than 6500 yds, and front tees in the 5600 yd range.  It would be possible to run a ball on the green, and you could putt from 10-15 yds off the putting surface.  I would keep it in immaculate condition.  There would not be a big elaborate clubhouse, just locker rooms with rented lockers, a small bar with no food and the shop would sell only drivers, putters and balls.  I would be very receptive to beginners, but strictly monitor pace of play.  There would be yardage markers in abundance, they would be easy to find, and not just in the fairways.  There would be beverage carts, but if you become obnoxious to the girls, away you go.  My staff would be friendly, polite and helpful, and you have to treat them with respect.  Obviously, this would not be a WRX fantasy course, but I've been in the management end of a golf course, so some of these things are essential.  Carts and beer are big revenue producers.  Big clubhouses with food service is where money goes to disappear.  You need to get people on and off the course in a reasonable length of time.  Again, not a fantasy course, but one that would have a chance to make some money.

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#30 TheDarkOne

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 12:43 PM

View Postfarmer, on 20 December 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:

If I was going to own a course with the intention of making money, there are some things I would do.  I would insist on carts.  I would have big wide fairways with very light rough so balls would be easy to find.  The bunkers would be shallow and it would be possible to putt out of them.  There would be no blind shots or water hazards directly in play.  It would be a stand alone course, with no housing inside the course.  The greens would have only moderate slopes, would be of moderate speed and small enough that two putting would be routine, with puttable collars.  There would be no tees longer than 6500 yds, and front tees in the 5600 yd range.  It would be possible to run a ball on the green, and you could putt from 10-15 yds off the putting surface.  I would keep it in immaculate condition.  There would not be a big elaborate clubhouse, just locker rooms with rented lockers, a small bar with no food and the shop would sell only drivers, putters and balls.  I would be very receptive to beginners, but strictly monitor pace of play.  There would be yardage markers in abundance, they would be easy to find, and not just in the fairways.  There would be beverage carts, but if you become obnoxious to the girls, away you go.  My staff would be friendly, polite and helpful, and you have to treat them with respect.  Obviously, this would not be a WRX fantasy course, but I've been in the management end of a golf course, so some of these things are essential.  Carts and beer are big revenue producers.  Big clubhouses with food service is where money goes to disappear.  You need to get people on and off the course in a reasonable length of time.  Again, not a fantasy course, but one that would have a chance to make some money.

So basically a big version of a miniature golf course?


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