[KaBoom21]

My father passed away last year and, at the time, my sister was living with him. As I understand it, he had her name added to his checking account so that she could run errands for him and pay for things like groceries, etc.

When we first met with my father's attorney after my father passed, he was going to have some document signed/put together that would require BOTH of us to approve any payments from the checking account. My sister indicated her intent to buy out my interest in the house.

Long story short: my sister moves her deadbeat husband (they had been living separately for 3 years) and mother-in-law into the house, drags out the closing process (all the while she is charging husband/mother-in-law rent) and blows through the 30K in the checking account. Biggest mistake I made was trusting my sister and letting my father's attorney handle this for us vs. just letting the bank handle the estate (we were trying to avoid the fee they charge).

So she is now claiming there is no money in the account and refuses to show me any of the bank statements. She also indicated she consulted w/an attorney and claims since she was on the account, the money reverts to her on his death. I realize there were property taxes, funeral expenses, etc., but my questions are:

1) is the determining factor whether she was simply added to his account or the account was made into a joint account? I suspect her name was simply added to the account (same account number) vs. having a joint account. Not sure if it matters, but I'm pretty confident that an audit trail up to the point my dad passed away would show only HIM making deposits to the account from his retirement annuity and checks she drews for his living expenses only.

2) what about her paying all utilities (for her, her husband and mother-in-law) from this account after my father death?

Lesson learned but I can't believe she did this. I suspect that at least 15K should have been there after all the legitimate expenses were paid.

Any light you can shed on the checking account would be appreciated. I live in Illinois.

[tpariff]

I'm not an attorney, but was formally trained at a large regional bank. If you sister was on the account as a signer, it would be considered "joint" and she would have access to all funds. Whether or not the money reverts to her should be handled by the laws of your state and whether or not your father had a will, etc.

I had similar issues in August 2005 when my dad died and his piece of shizit wife of less than 10 years (not my mother by the way) shredded my dad's will and took everything. We didn't have a copy of the will, nor did anyone else in the family. She got everything...the house, cars, RV, life insurance proceeds, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately the laws within the state govern when there is no will, and my brother and I got screwed. Needless to say we don't talk that person.

Your best bet is to contact an attorney. Gather all the facts so that you can take advantage of what is typically a free first consultation. If the attorney thinks you have a case, then he/she will pursue it. Otherwise, he/she should tell you that you're screwed just like we were.

I hate to sound negative, but it's amazing how screwed up the law can be sometimes. Good luck.

[pm hacker]

tpariff, on Sep 4 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

If you sister was on the account as a signer, it would be considered "joint" and she would have access to all funds.
I hate to sound negative, but it's amazing how screwed up the law can be sometimes. Good luck.

Tpariff is correct in stating that your sister had full access to the checking account because it was considered "joint". Due to your father passing away (my condolences), by default she becomes the sole "owner" of the checking account under law unless your dad had stated otherwise in his will. Every asset that he had besides the checking account, had he not had a will probably go to probate court.

Unfortunately, she has the legal right to use the money however she pleases. Sorry to hear that your sister "screwed" you.

[arkstorm]

pm hacker, on Sep 5 2006, 02:07 AM, said:

tpariff, on Sep 4 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

If you sister was on the account as a signer, it would be considered "joint" and she would have access to all funds.
I hate to sound negative, but it's amazing how screwed up the law can be sometimes. Good luck.

Tpariff is correct in stating that your sister had full access to the checking account because it was considered "joint". Due to your father passing away (my condolences), by default she becomes the sole "owner" of the checking account under law unless your dad had stated otherwise in his will. Every asset that he had besides the checking account, had he not had a will probably go to probate court.

Unfortunately, she has the legal right to use the money however she pleases. Sorry to hear that your sister "screwed" you.

Wait just one minute...

What about the possibility of asserting a constructive trust on behalf of the estate. If the sister had access to the account for purposes of assisting the father she is not entitled to use the account for her own purposes. If she divested the account wrongfully a probate court could find a constructive trust and compel the sister to pay the sum she removed from the account back to the estate.

Mind you, I'm not a wills and estates guy, I did horribly in that class in law school. But this is what I remember from the bar prep.

Can you advise?

[arkstorm]

tpariff, on Sep 5 2006, 01:07 AM, said:

I'm not an attorney, but was formally trained at a large regional bank. If you sister was on the account as a signer, it would be considered "joint" and she would have access to all funds. Whether or not the money reverts to her should be handled by the laws of your state and whether or not your father had a will, etc.

I had similar issues in August 2005 when my dad died and his piece of shizit wife of less than 10 years (not my mother by the way) shredded my dad's will and took everything. We didn't have a copy of the will, nor did anyone else in the family. She got everything...the house, cars, RV, life insurance proceeds, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately the laws within the state govern when there is no will, and my brother and I got screwed. Needless to say we don't talk that person.

Your best bet is to contact an attorney. Gather all the facts so that you can take advantage of what is typically a free first consultation. If the attorney thinks you have a case, then he/she will pursue it. Otherwise, he/she should tell you that you're screwed just like we were.

I hate to sound negative, but it's amazing how screwed up the law can be sometimes. Good luck.

This doesn't sound right either. In what state doe the laws of intestacy state that the suriving wife gets everything? In my state, e.g. the surviving wife is entitled to half of the estate and the other succesors split the remainder in a hybrid per capita / per sterpes distribution.

[king1066]

Heres the bottom line - adult children are not entitled to anything. The key word is- entitled. You are not entitled to your father's money. My father passed when I was young and he left everything to me and nothing to my brother. Me and my brother grew up separately and decades later he contacted me and wanted his share. I talked with my lawyer and he told me that children were not entitled to their parent's money or assets. That was the end of it, he did not have a legal claim to any of my father's assets. A parent can give proceeds of the estate to his/her children, but the children do not have a birthrite to the estate. The only entitlement goes to the spouse. A spouse can not be shut out, IE written out of the will.

As far as the checking account - SOL. Since your sister's name was on the account, it is her money - even if your dad was still living. He gave her access to his money. This is law is exactly the same for married couples, for example, my wife can clear the bank account and there is nothing I could do.

Just thought I would give my two cents b/c if you hire a lawyer - not only will you not get anything, but you will also owe a lawyer money (and in my experience this can be a bad thing).

P.S. Just in case there is a glimmer of hope. Even if you win, IE find a good lawyer and a judge who is willing to rule against law, your sister will probably not pay you. Money does not automatically appear in your account because a judge rules that someone owes you money. The loser still has to have access to a large amount of liquid funds in order to settle the judgement.

[tpariff]

arkstorm, on Sep 20 2006, 02:38 PM, said:

tpariff, on Sep 5 2006, 01:07 AM, said:

I'm not an attorney, but was formally trained at a large regional bank. If you sister was on the account as a signer, it would be considered "joint" and she would have access to all funds. Whether or not the money reverts to her should be handled by the laws of your state and whether or not your father had a will, etc.

I had similar issues in August 2005 when my dad died and his piece of shizit wife of less than 10 years (not my mother by the way) shredded my dad's will and took everything. We didn't have a copy of the will, nor did anyone else in the family. She got everything...the house, cars, RV, life insurance proceeds, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately the laws within the state govern when there is no will, and my brother and I got screwed. Needless to say we don't talk that person.

Your best bet is to contact an attorney. Gather all the facts so that you can take advantage of what is typically a free first consultation. If the attorney thinks you have a case, then he/she will pursue it. Otherwise, he/she should tell you that you're screwed just like we were.

I hate to sound negative, but it's amazing how screwed up the law can be sometimes. Good luck.

This doesn't sound right either. In what state doe the laws of intestacy state that the suriving wife gets everything? In my state, e.g. the surviving wife is entitled to half of the estate and the other succesors split the remainder in a hybrid per capita / per sterpes distribution.

My father was a resident of Oklahoma, so the laws there apply. I was told by an attorney that the surviving spouse gets everything jointly titled or jointly owned if there is no will. Since the home, cars, RV, checking / savings accounts, etc. (in other words, anything of value) were jointly titled or jointly owned, she got it all. Sure there are other things of very little monetary value, but as the attorney told me, she could argue that my father "gifted" all of that to her prior to his death. Her word against ours, basically.

I'm somewhat familiar with your assessment in the hybrid per capita split after having spent many hours sifting through estate law on the internet. But as I was told, that only applies to things that weren't jointly titled. When I returned to Florida after the funeral, I contacted an estate attorney in Oklahoma and he told me I didn't have a case. Believe me, as a matter of principle, I would have spent thousands of dollars in legal fees if I thought I could keep her from getting the smallest benefit. But I couldn't even get an attorney to take the case. Knowing how attorneys like to generate fees, it was pretty clear I had no case and we were hosed.

[arkstorm]

Yes, if things were jointly titled you have no recourse.

But out of curiousity, what evidence do you have to suggest she shredded the will? I take it the will was never recorded?

[tpariff]

arkstorm, on Sep 20 2006, 04:31 PM, said:

Yes, if things were jointly titled you have no recourse.

But out of curiousity, what evidence do you have to suggest she shredded the will? I take it the will was never recorded?

That's kind of an oxymoron, isn't it? Evidence of a shredded will. To the best of my knowledge, the will was never recorded. They moved a couple of times during the last several years, so it would be hard to track where it would have been recorded.

All I know is that when I was in OK for the services, she was in the office at the house with the door closed and the shredder was going for quite some time. If you're grieving, would you take time to shred documents that were of little importance like credit card apps and other junk? In addition, this was my Dad's 4th wife and all along my brother and I were told by him, "I'm leaving everything to you guys. There's no way some woman is getting everything I worked for." All friends and family members knew my Dad's intentions.

One other interesting thing is that she met with an attorney less than a week after my Dad died. He died on a Saturday, the memorial service was the following Friday, and in between she met with an attorney. Maybe this is standard practice, but I couldn't imagine worrying about legal matters less than a week after the death of a spouse.

[king1066]

No evidence of shredded will? How about the lawyer's copy? LOL. The lawyer that drew the will, must have a copy. Why draw up a will and have only one copy, come on, my dad had several copies. Believe me when I tell you there is a copy at the lawyers office. There has to be in order for the law firm to make adjustments to the document if needed or requested.

[tpariff]

king1066, on Sep 21 2006, 02:28 AM, said:

No evidence of shredded will? How about the lawyer's copy? LOL. The lawyer that drew the will, must have a copy. Why draw up a will and have only one copy, come on, my dad had several copies. Believe me when I tell you there is a copy at the lawyers office. There has to be in order for the law firm to make adjustments to the document if needed or requested.

Do me a favor and read my entire post before replying. I clearly stated that they moved a couple of times over the last several years. My father was a military guy for 23 years and we moved several times. He retired in 1987. Since that time he lived in 3 different places. So, over the course of the last 35+ years he lived in 9 or 10 places, 2 of them overseas. Now, you tell me where to start looking. Michigan, Oklahoma, Alabama, Japan, New York, Germany, etc? Which law firm smart guy? What year? I have no clue when, where and with whom the will would have been drafted. I'm glad you find this funny with your LOL comment.

I'm glad your dad had several copies. He planned better than my dad and most parents do. If everyone had an estate plan and will, then there wouldn't be so many problems with things like this. But they don't.

When your father is 58 years old and in pretty good health you don't talk about these things, unfortunately. I've learned a valuable lesson in all of this in that you never know when it's your time and that you need to have the T's crossed and I's dotted with regard to your wishes. I'm 35 with a wife and child and we did ours within a month of my dad's passing. Lesson learned the hard way, I guess.

[arkstorm]

tpariff, on Sep 21 2006, 10:11 AM, said:

king1066, on Sep 21 2006, 02:28 AM, said:

No evidence of shredded will? How about the lawyer's copy? LOL. The lawyer that drew the will, must have a copy. Why draw up a will and have only one copy, come on, my dad had several copies. Believe me when I tell you there is a copy at the lawyers office. There has to be in order for the law firm to make adjustments to the document if needed or requested.

Do me a favor and read my entire post before replying. I clearly stated that they moved a couple of times over the last several years. My father was a military guy for 23 years and we moved several times. He retired in 1987. Since that time he lived in 3 different places. So, over the course of the last 35+ years he lived in 9 or 10 places, 2 of them overseas. Now, you tell me where to start looking. Michigan, Oklahoma, Alabama, Japan, New York, Germany, etc? Which law firm smart guy? What year? I have no clue when, where and with whom the will would have been drafted. I'm glad you find this funny with your LOL comment.

I'm glad your dad had several copies. He planned better than my dad and most parents do. If everyone had an estate plan and will, then there wouldn't be so many problems with things like this. But they don't.

When your father is 58 years old and in pretty good health you don't talk about these things, unfortunately. I've learned a valuable lesson in all of this in that you never know when it's your time and that you need to have the T's crossed and I's dotted with regard to your wishes. I'm 35 with a wife and child and we did ours within a month of my dad's passing. Lesson learned the hard way, I guess.

Wow! Way out of line.

He was just trying to help man. The "LOL" was in regards to the 'lawyer's copy' comment. I can't fathom how you could have interpreted to mean he was laughing at you?

Sorry about you dad, and sorry things turned out the way they did in terms of the estate, but your attack was truly uncalled for IMHO.

[arkstorm]

And BTW:

There is such a thing as evidence of a shredded will, e.g. witnesses that saw the will being shredded..."smart guy".

[king1066]

If I was you the first thing I would do is start contacting lawyers in the area in which your dad retired, if I didnt have any luck, then I would contact the military bases were your father was stationed. If your father was an officer or if he was enlisted and worked closely with officers he may have had it done thru the base attorney. Second step, and this will require some serious foot work, contact the lawyers in the areas where your father was stationed. Start with the last bases in which he was stationed (b/c the older a person is the more likely the will be thinking of estate planning). Actually, the best place to start is on important dates -IE his wedding, your birth, your sisters birth - look at where your father was stationed during these events and try to contact the base or lawyers in the area (especially during the time of the first born - this is when people get serious about the future).

I am an ex-military man myself and I can tell you that there is one piece of paper you never want to lose. If you can find your dad's DD214 (separation papers) you may be able to find a copy of the will. People will usually keep important papers together - Just a thought.

PS - sorry about the LOL, no offense to you or your family. I know these are hard times and the get harder when someone, and there is always one, takes advantage. My point was the shredded will - There is another copy somewhere, fo sho (my attempt at jive, lol).

[tpariff]

arkstorm, on Sep 21 2006, 10:47 AM, said:

And BTW:

There is such a thing as evidence of a shredded will, e.g. witnesses that saw the will being shredded..."smart guy".

Who put a quarter in your box?

[tpariff]

king1066, on Sep 21 2006, 02:08 PM, said:

If I was you the first thing I would do is start contacting lawyers in the area in which your dad retired, if I didnt have any luck, then I would contact the military bases were your father was stationed. If your father was an officer or if he was enlisted and worked closely with officers he may have had it done thru the base attorney. Second step, and this will require some serious foot work, contact the lawyers in the areas where your father was stationed. Start with the last bases in which he was stationed (b/c the older a person is the more likely the will be thinking of estate planning). Actually, the best place to start is on important dates -IE his wedding, your birth, your sisters birth - look at where your father was stationed during these events and try to contact the base or lawyers in the area (especially during the time of the first born - this is when people get serious about the future).

I am an ex-military man myself and I can tell you that there is one piece of paper you never want to lose. If you can find your dad's DD214 (separation papers) you may be able to find a copy of the will. People will usually keep important papers together - Just a thought.

PS - sorry about the LOL, no offense to you or your family. I know these are hard times and the get harder when someone, and there is always one, takes advantage. My point was the shredded will - There is another copy somewhere, fo sho (my attempt at jive, lol).

Thanks for the info. Sorry for taking your LOL the wrong way. My bad!

It's been over a year now and we've moved on. Like I said in earlier posts, it's a lesson learned the hard way.

Again, sorry for the comments.

[KaBoom21]

Hey, you guys totally hijacked my thread! (kidding) FYI - I'm working a friend/attorney so we'll see what happens. Not going to shell a bunch of dough, just want to see if I can re-coup anything.

[tpariff]

KaBoom21, on Sep 21 2006, 03:04 PM, said:

Hey, you guys totally hijacked my thread! (kidding) FYI - I'm working a friend/attorney so we'll see what happens. Not going to shell a bunch of dough, just want to see if I can re-coup anything.

Good luck! I hope all turns out well for you.

Sorry about the threadjack and the personal blasts to all I've offended. I guess it's sort of a touchy subject.