251 replies to this topic

[Miles]

^^^Howard, that information is literally liquid gold. Thanks!

[Deuce78]

This is the most useful chart I have ever come across!  Fantastic!  thank you!

[neova]

Thanks Howard for the comprehensive explanations on the follow up questions!

[GolfErd]

First ever post.  Fantastic information.  My mind is officially blown...in a great way.  Thx.

[choo31]

Howard,

I'm just curious to know what size clamp you use to test each make and model of shaft?  I currently have two sizes, 2.5" and 5".  I have heard each make and model has a different size requirement to measure the correct frequency.  Is this true in your experience?

Thanks for the information.

[Howard Jones]

You got different reading from those 2 clamps. (just try and see for yourself)
The 2.5 clamp is for RIFLE shafts, while the 5 inch is the most common to use on everything else when you measure BUTT cpm like the chart in this tread. If you wants to measure zone cpm, you need a 4 inch clamp for that, and the 454 gram weight
http://www.mitchellg...amps-117-1.html

[choo31]

Howard Jones, on 05 January 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

You got different reading from those 2 clamps. (just try and see for yourself)
The 2.5 clamp is for RIFLE shafts, while the 5 inch is the most common to use on everything else when you measure BUTT cpm like the chart in this tread. If you wants to measure zone cpm, you need a 4 inch clamp for that, and the 454 gram weight
http://www.mitchellg...amps-117-1.html

Thanks for confirming what I have been doing.  I've always used the 2.5" clamp for Rifle shafts and the 5" clamp for True Temper and graphite wood shafts.

Can you clarify what "Zone CPM" refers to?

[Howard Jones]

The chart only contains data for BUTT cpm, but the shaft got more than butt flex.
All parts of the shaft can be measured, but the systems is different around, so like many other stuff in Golf, there aint no standards.

Zone flex is each and every part of the shaft who is NOT butt CPM so that means the rest of the shaft, but the way we split the length of the shaft/decides where we measure each zone is different from "school to school". If you have been reading in the very good post open by Tom Wishon, you will get to know more about this subject. The idea is to get the complete bend profile of the shaft, so you can compare 2 shaft as a hole shaft, not only by butt cpm

Miyazaki has launched their own system, who is based on 4 different point to be measured
Wishon uses another system with 7 points (5 inch apart) to be judged for his work, and Michell school were i took my classes uses a 3 system with 10 inch apart, so what system to use?

Here is Tom Wishons way of doing this
http://www.golfwrx.c...s/page__st__126

There is no standard, so only experience will guide you right here i guess, and Tom got a few more years in this then i do (VERY large understatement), so for now i think i will lay that part of the debate down, because im not the man to tell whats right or wrong here, because the opinions about this is different, depending on who you talk to.

[neova]

Found a Chart from PX website that anwsers my question precisely, because Howard's chart does not include FCM values for Flighted PX shafts.

http://pxshaft.com/p...tXFlexChart.pdf

So based on PX's chart, and Howards recommendation to go up .5 flex for flighted (in terms of FEEL), but does that mean in terms of FCM the Flighted PX plays .5 flex softer than non-flighted as well?

So if I were to switch from PX 6.0 Flighted to Non-Flighted I should look at PX 5.5?

Edited by neova, 12 January 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[Howard Jones]

neova, on 12 January 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Found a Chart from PX website that anwsers my question precisely, because Howard's chart does not include FCM values for Flighted PX shafts.

http://pxshaft.com/p...tXFlexChart.pdf

So based on PX's chart, and Howards recommendation to go up .5 flex for flighted (in terms of FEEL), but does that mean in terms of FCM the Flighted PX plays .5 flex softer than non-flighted as well?

So if I were to switch from PX 6.0 Flighted to Non-Flighted I should look at PX 5.5?

YES !
True Temper suggest going UP one flex for flighted, so you got it right, but dont forget shaft weight  Standard flight is constant weight and lighter, Flighted is descending weight starting heavy in the long to light in the short, but on average, flighted is more weight, and thats good news for some, not for others

[Howard Jones]

TCNorthstars, on 20 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Any idea where black gold regular flex would fit on that chart?

CPM slope progression compare.  DG vs Black Gold

Swing weight D3, no grip
This are avarage results of 3 sets,(DG) so this values might vary due to  tolerances and FLO, but they do give a snapshot of the differences.  Black Gold are converted numbers from published CPM values from TT

Length / Butt cpm

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

DGR300 Taper

39.00 = 281
38.50 = 286
38.00 = 292
37.50 = 297
37.00 = 303
36.50 = 308
36.00 = 313
35.50 = 317

Black Gold S flex - Converted numbers Published CPM numbers from TT

39.00 = 322
38.50 =  326
38.00 =  330
37.50 =  334
37.00 =  339
36.50 =  343
36.00 =  347
35.50 =  351

Black Gold R flex

39.00 =  309
38.50 =  313
38.00 =  317
37.50 =  321
37.00 =  326
36.50 =  330
36.00 =  334
35.50 =  338

Im not done with over length shafts, so at the moment i cant give you  those numbers, but they will be included in my next chart with 0.5, 1.0  and 1.5 over length

[Slugsy]

Howard, apologies for cutting in on the thread but do you do custom fits and if you do, where are you based? Sorry if this seems rude but couldn't ascertain the information from your profile?

[Howard Jones]

Slugsy, on 13 January 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Howard, apologies for cutting in on the thread but do you do custom fits and if you do, where are you based? Sorry if this seems rude but couldn't ascertain the information from your profile?

Yes i do both fitting and club making, but im on the other side of the globe for most of you on the WRX, Im located in Denmark, Europe where players like Thomas Bjorn, Soren Kjeldsen and Anders Hansen comes from (Kjeldsens home course is 18 miles from my shop, and thats my previous Golf club) PS! None of them are my customers, but they are most welcome :-)

There are several very good fitters on this forum located in the US, and i guess thats more convenient for most of you.

[clubmaster13]

Great Work Guys. Thanks a million.

[siagolf]

Outstanding work -- a tremendous boon to the community!

Question: what would a PX FLIGHTED 6.0 softstepped once FCM at?  Would that essentially be the FCM of the PX NON-FLIGHTED 5.5 soft-stepped once?

Also, I'm looking for help in picking the right iron shaft and would love to get the input of the brains from this thread!  I posted a new topic (http://www.golfwrx.c...shaft-decision/) and would sincerely appreciate your thoughts, comments, input, and recommendations!

Edited by siagolf, 21 January 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[siagolf]

hoping this chart will be updated with the PXi and MODUS-3 stats

[Burns]

Any possilbe insight on Ping AWT or CFS?
Thanks.

[dnong]

how do these numbers make it 5.8? please elaborate.

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

Howard Jones, on 13 January 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

TCNorthstars, on 20 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Any idea where black gold regular flex would fit on that chart?

CPM slope progression compare.  DG vs Black Gold

Swing weight D3, no grip
This are avarage results of 3 sets,(DG) so this values might vary due to  tolerances and FLO, but they do give a snapshot of the differences.  Black Gold are converted numbers from published CPM values from TT

Length / Butt cpm

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

DGR300 Taper

39.00 = 281
38.50 = 286
38.00 = 292
37.50 = 297
37.00 = 303
36.50 = 308
36.00 = 313
35.50 = 317

Black Gold S flex - Converted numbers Published CPM numbers from TT

39.00 = 322
38.50 =  326
38.00 =  330
37.50 =  334
37.00 =  339
36.50 =  343
36.00 =  347
35.50 =  351

Black Gold R flex

39.00 =  309
38.50 =  313
38.00 =  317
37.50 =  321
37.00 =  326
36.50 =  330
36.00 =  334
35.50 =  338

Im not done with over length shafts, so at the moment i cant give you  those numbers, but they will be included in my next chart with 0.5, 1.0  and 1.5 over length

[rjkrutsch]

I want to thank for the great information

[Howard Jones]

dnong, on 31 January 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

how do these numbers make it 5.8? please elaborate.

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

Howard Jones, on 13 January 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

TCNorthstars, on 20 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Any idea where black gold regular flex would fit on that chart?

CPM slope progression compare.  DG vs Black Gold

Swing weight D3, no grip
This are avarage results of 3 sets,(DG) so this values might vary due to  tolerances and FLO, but they do give a snapshot of the differences.  Black Gold are converted numbers from published CPM values from TT

Length / Butt cpm

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

DGR300 Taper

39.00 = 281
38.50 = 286
38.00 = 292
37.50 = 297
37.00 = 303
36.50 = 308
36.00 = 313
35.50 = 317

Black Gold S flex - Converted numbers Published CPM numbers from TT

39.00 = 322
38.50 =  326
38.00 =  330
37.50 =  334
37.00 =  339
36.50 =  343
36.00 =  347
35.50 =  351

Black Gold R flex

39.00 =  309
38.50 =  313
38.00 =  317
37.50 =  321
37.00 =  326
36.50 =  330
36.00 =  334
35.50 =  338

Im not done with over length shafts, so at the moment i cant give you  those numbers, but they will be included in my next chart with 0.5, 1.0  and 1.5 over length

Ohaa that a long story, so im not going deeply into that, because the numbers provided in THIS post, was only to compare DG vs DG Black Gold
Im still working on a new an much larger chart with a lot of variables who is not included here, but the main thing is, there will be a uniformed standard, witch is not present at the moment.

The Rifle system or FCM system was made using a 2,5 inch long clamp, while most club makers using a 5 inch clamp
Some is measuring the raw uncut shaft with a tip weight of 205 grams, other uses 255 on iron shafts
Some is measuring ready made clubs with the actual club head, but with different swing weight -
The Rifle system uses a club who is 0.5 shorter than todays norm, and with SW value D3

Its all a mess, a specially when a shaft changes differently when cut down to play length. That means numbers measured uncut 2 inch longer is useless in the real world
For example DGSL X100 and DGSL S300 changes by 7 CPM for each 0.5 inch when going longer (almost one flex class drop at 0.5 only if using the same heads)
Imagine the numbers the other way around. You measure a raw uncut shaft, and find it to be right. Then you cut of 2 inch butt to get to playing lenght, thinking flex is the same, sorry its not. So i try to make a chart where a #6 iron shaft is "cut" to a standard playing length of 37.50, but in the CPM reader with a 255 gram tip weight

The chart im working on is based on this parameters
Mitchell Digiflex
#6 Iron shaft - Uncut , marked at different playing lengths
255 gram Mitchell Tip weight
5.0 inch Clamp
FLO aligned - Softest side
Raw shaft full length is only one column, but NOT the one the FCM value will be sorted from

By using a "std" #6 head with average hosel length and insertion dept,(30 mm) shafts is marked for cut to play length

39.50 - 2.0 longer
39.00 - 1.5 longer
38.50 - 1.0 longer
38.00 - 0.5 longer
37.50 - "my standard" included grip cap  
37.00 - 0.5 Shorter

So please be patient and wait a bit longer. I will provide you with someting everyone can use,because thats not the case with the chart starting this post or any other chart ive seen :-(

[jrshields3]

WOW!!!! Great iformation! Thanks Howard for your detail and passion.

Jim

[siagolf]

Howard, I echo everyone's sentiments here -- tremendous work and thank you for being so open with this information!  Can't wait for the updated chart!

[HoselRocket]

siagolf, on 02 February 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Howard, I echo everyone's sentiments here -- tremendous work and thank you for being so open with this information!  Can't wait for the updated chart!

Couldn't have said it any better myself.  Thanks again!

[hpr3]

Thank you Howard for taking the time to share your expertise. It's invaluable.

[dnong]

Howard Jones, on 02 February 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

dnong, on 31 January 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

how do these numbers make it 5.8? please elaborate.

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

Howard Jones, on 13 January 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

TCNorthstars, on 20 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Any idea where black gold regular flex would fit on that chart?

CPM slope progression compare.  DG vs Black Gold

Swing weight D3, no grip
This are avarage results of 3 sets,(DG) so this values might vary due to  tolerances and FLO, but they do give a snapshot of the differences.  Black Gold are converted numbers from published CPM values from TT

Length / Butt cpm

DGS300 Taper

39.00 = 307
38.50 = 312
38.00 = 317
37.50 = 323
37.00 = 328
36.50 = 335
36.00 = 340
35.50 = 347

DGR300 Taper

39.00 = 281
38.50 = 286
38.00 = 292
37.50 = 297
37.00 = 303
36.50 = 308
36.00 = 313
35.50 = 317

Black Gold S flex - Converted numbers Published CPM numbers from TT

39.00 = 322
38.50 =  326
38.00 =  330
37.50 =  334
37.00 =  339
36.50 =  343
36.00 =  347
35.50 =  351

Black Gold R flex

39.00 =  309
38.50 =  313
38.00 =  317
37.50 =  321
37.00 =  326
36.50 =  330
36.00 =  334
35.50 =  338

Im not done with over length shafts, so at the moment i cant give you  those numbers, but they will be included in my next chart with 0.5, 1.0  and 1.5 over length

Ohaa that a long story, so im not going deeply into that, because the numbers provided in THIS post, was only to compare DG vs DG Black Gold
Im still working on a new an much larger chart with a lot of variables who is not included here, but the main thing is, there will be a uniformed standard, witch is not present at the moment.

The Rifle system or FCM system was made using a 2,5 inch long clamp, while most club makers using a 5 inch clamp
Some is measuring the raw uncut shaft with a tip weight of 205 grams, other uses 255 on iron shafts
Some is measuring ready made clubs with the actual club head, but with different swing weight -
The Rifle system uses a club who is 0.5 shorter than todays norm, and with SW value D3

Its all a mess, a specially when a shaft changes differently when cut down to play length. That means numbers measured uncut 2 inch longer is useless in the real world
For example DGSL X100 and DGSL S300 changes by 7 CPM for each 0.5 inch when going longer (almost one flex class drop at 0.5 only if using the same heads)
Imagine the numbers the other way around. You measure a raw uncut shaft, and find it to be right. Then you cut of 2 inch butt to get to playing lenght, thinking flex is the same, sorry its not. So i try to make a chart where a #6 iron shaft is "cut" to a standard playing length of 37.50, but in the CPM reader with a 255 gram tip weight

The chart im working on is based on this parameters
Mitchell Digiflex
#6 Iron shaft - Uncut , marked at different playing lengths
255 gram Mitchell Tip weight
5.0 inch Clamp
FLO aligned - Softest side
Raw shaft full length is only one column, but NOT the one the FCM value will be sorted from

By using a "std" #6 head with average hosel length and insertion dept,(30 mm) shafts is marked for cut to play length

39.50 - 2.0 longer
39.00 - 1.5 longer
38.50 - 1.0 longer
38.00 - 0.5 longer
37.50 - "my standard" included grip cap  
37.00 - 0.5 Shorter

So please be patient and wait a bit longer. I will provide you with someting everyone can use,because thats not the case with the chart starting this post or any other chart ive seen :-(

is there a chart that says what cpm a standard length irons with x100 are? 5 iron being 38" long.

[vicsith1]

wow, I know I'm late to the party, but thank you so much for this, it's so helpful..

[Barto78]

Well crap.....i just ordered a set of AP2's w/ KBS C-Taper shafts, soft stepped 1 time.  I was trying to get them as close to my DGS300's as possible.  Per the chart, i actually need the SS twice.  I just placed my order last night with a guy on this site who is going to order them for me.  I just sent him a PM and hopefully he can change the order.  If not, looks like i'll be swinging basically a 5.9 shaft per the chart.

Where was this chart yesterday......DOH!

[PingDrv00]

Barto78, on 16 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Well crap.....i just ordered a set of AP2's w/ KBS C-Taper shafts, soft stepped 1 time.  I was trying to get them as close to my DGS300's as possible.  Per the chart, i actually need the SS twice.  I just placed my order last night with a guy on this site who is going to order them for me.  I just sent him a PM and hopefully he can change the order.  If not, looks like i'll be swinging basically a 5.9 shaft per the chart.

Where was this chart yesterday......DOH!

Did you get the Standard C-Taper Stiff is so soft stepped once is dead on.  If you went S+ then it would be twice.  Also, did you get you clubs yet?  I am interested to see how you liked them?

[PingDrv00]

Howard Jones, on 24 December 2011 - 04:21 AM, said:

OUTSIDE the chart

Since a lot of you are searching for info about how one shaft performs vs another, id like to fill you inn with some info about the 2 shafts i know the best, and who they are the best match for, and thats DG vs PX

First pay attention to weight.
Weight is a factor, not only for the potential of club speed, but it also influence on your swing tempo and stability in your swing plane
Since standard flight PX and comparable flex DG is far apart in weight, the comparable flexes is not meant for the same player.

DG is heavy, and better if there is a need to slow down and smooth out swing tempo, while PX is for the player in CONTROL of his own swing tempo. If more weight than standard flight PX offers is wanted, Flighted PX one flex class up will get us closer in weight, but then as descending weight

Release timing
The later and more CONSTANT the players release timing is, the better he will be able play a PX shaft
The PX shaft is more sensitive to variables in release timing vs DG, so if the players release is variable, he will, not get good dispersion with a PX shaft. For this player the shaft profile of DG is more "forgiving". He will see better dispersion with DG.

The key here is CONTROL
The better the player is in control of his swing, and the later he releases the club, on a constant release timing, the better he will be able to play a PX shaft. Any need for smoothing out a players errors or inconstancy, will bias the shaft choice against a DG shaft.

WHY is this different you might ask.
Bend profile and step pattern or lack of step pattern is the answer

If we go by the rules of energy in the nature, we know that we cant make energy, only transfer or convert it if it already exist. In Golf, you the player provides the energy, and the shaft is the transmission of this energy.
A shaft dont ADD energy to the swing or impact, but different shaft profiles eats different amounts of energy in transmission, so the efficiency of 2 shafts might be different, yes even with the same zone flexes.

A stepped shaft like DG, looses energy in transfer of power in each step from butt to tip, but also the lenght of the parallel section, and the speed of the stepping influence on how much power who gets lost here.
DG also has the relative softest part of the shaft in the BUTT, so this is the profile who provides less dynamic loft in the first place.

PX is a non stepped shaft. Is was a stepped shaft half way done, but every step is smoothed out in a taper pattern, as constant as possible, to lower the loss of energy in transmission. PX got it weakest part in the mid section, and that provides more dynamic loft at impact than a soft butt does.

So PX will respond more to different release timing, than DG does, and now you know why.
PX got a lower bend point, and a higher power transfer, when released right, and thats whats make them more sensible to the players release, vs DG

Howard, I appreciate all the great info, and I have never really given much thought to the tempo piece as it relates to shaft fitting.  Can you tell me if my thinking is correct regarding Dynamic Gold?  I have tried lighter weight shafts, including KBS Tour 90's and really struggle with hitting the sweet spot.  I can pick up Dynamic Gold, and wala dead center time and time again.  If I am swinging smoothly I can do this as well, with the heavier weight KBS Tour, but not as consistently.  I have similar results with Project X as well.  The only other shaft I have had a lot of luck with are the C-Tapers, but they are a bit pricy.  The question I have would this point to the fact that I may actually need the heavier weight shaft to smooth out the inconsistencies in terms of swing speed and tempo?  I appreciate any thoughts.

[MattTitleist]

Howard, any idea on how the new PXi relates to the normal PX for freq?