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New and Improved Shaft Chart


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#601 Howard Jones

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 10:14 AM

 QMany, on 17 October 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Howard, I'm sorry if this has already been addressed. I play KBS Tour X (no stepping) but +1/2". I've always wondered how does that extra length affect the profile, flex, etc.? Thank you.

We dont really change flex, not in such a way we should worry about it, since length is way more important to start with.
But, depending on what chart we use, ON THE PAPER we can sometimes see a difference to flex but did it really change?

Example we have a club thats 37.50 (standard #6 iron length) and that club measure xxx CPM on Kaufmanns chart for flex and thats "S"
Now we make the same club 0.5 inch longer, and SW value raise by 3 points, so CPM drops by 3.
On Kaufmanns chart, the flex slope is 7.3 CPM pr inch, or 3.65 CPM for each 0.5, so if the club only went down 3 equal to SW points, flex actually went stronger by 0.65 vs Kaufmanns chart.

If we use RIFLE FCM chart for irons post 2012, the CPM slope is 8.5 cpm pr inch, or 4.25 pr 0.5, and if the club only went down by 3 CPM, we actually went 1.25 CPM stronger...

BUT, the actual shaft, in your case a KBS TOUR, DONT have the same flex slope in its original design as either Kaufman or RIfles chart, so if we shall be able to judge it at all, we have to know the flex slope for the actual set. For a set like DG X100, we are close to 9 CPM pr inch, or close to 4.5 for each club both ways, so again, does it change MORE or LESS than SW value influence, VS the actual slope on that model, then we can put a number on it if we went stronger or weaker. in General, Shafts with a "stiff" butt goes stronger when we go longer, while a "soft" butt goes weaker.

Butt CPM ONLY, is ONLY good to judge 2 IDENTICAL shafts to se if the really are identical, not to compare 2 different shafts, and what ever number is shows, its not a value directly compatible with "feel" since we only measure a tiny bit of the shaft.

So where do we end up? maybe the flex value was 6.8 and became 6.92, or maybe 6.71, would you be able to notice?
If you was a robot, 1 CPM on flex would cause a flight with 1 feet higher apex and in your case maybe up to 0.5 yards, but i doubt you will see the same for the same reason. If ball flight changes, its a flatter swing plane and less negative AoA, and thats normal when we go longer.

Edited by Howard Jones, 17 October 2016 - 10:23 AM.


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#602 tercoidegw

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 11:38 AM

 Howard Jones, on 17 October 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:


Its a big step from R400 HS1 to PX 6.5 but it seems like 125 grams or more is what you like, so i would suggest you go by weight, feel and dispersion, and then just tweak static lofts to get the desired ball flight.
Remember that the ball has no clue about where loft came from, so if its a "flighted shaft" who adds loft before impact in the long irons, or those heads is given 0.5 to 1 more loft, flight, spin and distance is the same as it would be if a shaft made the difference,

Since the shaft you mention is both strong and soft, what they have in common is a rather stiff mid to tip, (no high launch models) and a weight of 125 to 129 grams when you like it, so maybe a S400 SS2 at FCM 5.4 - 5.5 would fit the bill? They end up at about 128.5 grams with a flight pattern like MID launch vs standard vs S200-S300 at the same weight.

R400 to S400.PNG

THANKS!!!

It's nice you've confirmed my calculations. I will keep the set with R400hs and make another with PX6.5 ssx2.

I'm also planning to use part of the S400 set in the wedges like this:

60 8 iron shaft
56 7 iron shaft
52 6 iron shaft

as the original S400 wedge that they have is a bit too stiff for my swingspeed (more notory in the 52, were most bad shots are made)
M1 8.5 Tour AD-BB6s
Stage2 14.5 Kailli 7S, Rescue 17 NVS 7S
  TM MB 12 R400 hs
   Nike 52 , 56, TT 60 S400
    Callaway DART 34"

2

#603 Howard Jones

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 12:13 PM

If KBS S flex as 120 was to low weight PX 6.5 SS" will be to light too.
You start from 125 grams / 38.50 = 3.24 grams pr inch, so when you go SS2, you loose 3.24 grams and is now down at 121.7  and thats "equal" to KBS tour who was to light for you.

If you look those numbers over again, i started from S400 at 132 grams and went SS2 both for flex and flight reasons, and we ended up with a 128.5 grams MID flight shaft profile and flex who should be within your preference zone.

Edited by Howard Jones, 17 October 2016 - 12:14 PM.


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#604 tercoidegw

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 04:29 PM

 Howard Jones, on 17 October 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

If KBS S flex as 120 was to low weight PX 6.5 SS" will be to light too.
You start from 125 grams / 38.50 = 3.24 grams pr inch, so when you go SS2, you loose 3.24 grams and is now down at 121.7  and thats "equal" to KBS tour who was to light for you.

PX 6.5 fligthed is 130grs AFAIK
M1 8.5 Tour AD-BB6s
Stage2 14.5 Kailli 7S, Rescue 17 NVS 7S
  TM MB 12 R400 hs
   Nike 52 , 56, TT 60 S400
    Callaway DART 34"

4

#605 SmoothStroker81

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Posted 17 October 2016 - 06:02 PM

Late to the party, but thanks for all the great info!  It goes a long way!


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#606 interstate_45

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 05:18 PM

helpful.. i owe you both
Taylormade M2 10.5* Martix Ozik 6Q3 Red Tie X-Stiff
Taylormade M1 13.5* Tour AD Di 8x
Titleist 915 H 17* Diamana White 90 X
Nike VR Forged Combo 3-PW (PW 49*) Project X 6.5
Titleist SM6 54.8M & 60.4L Project X 6.5
Nike Method 001 Custom Milled (Scotty Grip)
Titleist Pro V1X

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#607 ProjectX_Mizuno

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Posted 01 December 2016 - 06:01 PM

Awesome info Howard! I have followed this thread since day one.

I have always been intrigued by KBS C-Taper shafts. On paper, they should be the perfect shaft for me. However, the few times that I have tried them I had a hard time feeling the club head through the swing. It was almost like there was a counter balance weight in the butt of the shaft. Have you experienced this at all with these shafts?

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#608 Howard Jones

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Posted 02 December 2016 - 03:49 AM

 ProjectX_Mizuno, on 01 December 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Awesome info Howard! I have followed this thread since day one.

I have always been intrigued by KBS C-Taper shafts. On paper, they should be the perfect shaft for me. However, the few times that I have tried them I had a hard time feeling the club head through the swing. It was almost like there was a counter balance weight in the butt of the shaft. Have you experienced this at all with these shafts?

I only made a few sets with KBS shafts (My shop had True Temper products only), so im not deeply into balance point of them, but if C-taper is like KBS Tour, the balance point is a bit higher up in the shaft vs DG and PX, but a gram or 2 added to the head should take care of that, so try some lead tape on the head.

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#609 BobBadger

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 02:16 PM

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but have Kbs changed the fcm of the c tapers. Their website suggests that for the S the fcm is between 4.5 (assume this ssx2) and 6.0 (assume hs), which should leave the straight in freq as 5.5 ish. The really helpful chart on this thread puts straight in S flex as 6.2. Has it changed over the years or is it my understanding?

Be gentle �� Thanks

Edited by BobBadger, 05 December 2016 - 03:11 PM.


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#610 Howard Jones

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 03:05 PM

 BobBadger, on 05 December 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but have Kbps changed the fcm of the c tapers. Their website suggests that for the S the fcm is between 4.5 (assume this ssx2) and 6.0 (assume hs), which should leave the straight in freq as 5.5 ish. The really helpful chart on this thread puts straight in S flex as 6.2. Has it changed over the years or is it my understanding?

Be gentle �� Thanks

No thats a good question, i have not noticed so i will have to check it up.

EDIT: - seems like you look on Parallels? the chart is for Tapers, and ive changed the value from 6.1 to 6.2 to make it fit with the FCM system from Rifle who is measured with a SW value of D3 while KBS uses D2

Edited by Howard Jones, 05 December 2016 - 03:23 PM.


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#611 trying2scratch

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 04:08 PM

Hoping you may be able to point me in the right direction.  I currently play KBS Ctaper Stiff ssx2 +.25".  The launch is a little higher than I would like and not a huge fan of the feel.  Kind of like I have to swing too hard load the shaft, was better after soft stepping but still not ideal. Originally this is why I tried to soft step, but think now that the shaft profile just doesn't work for me.  I'm 6'3 and 215lbs.

I'm planning on having my irons re shafted to play between 1-1.5" over std length.  39" 5 iron working down in 3/8" steps and PW-LW same length.

Do you have any experience with TT XL lite shafts?  They are low cost option, Do you know where the fit on the FCM chart?  

I also have a set of KBS Tour V x flex that I could extend but not sure of the FCM of those either.

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#612 BobBadger

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 05:12 PM

View PostHoward Jones, on 05 December 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

View PostBobBadger, on 05 December 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but have Kbps changed the fcm of the c tapers. Their website suggests that for the S the fcm is between 4.5 (assume this ssx2) and 6.0 (assume hs), which should leave the straight in freq as 5.5 ish. The really helpful chart on this thread puts straight in S flex as 6.2. Has it changed over the years or is it my understanding?

Be gentle �� Thanks

No thats a good question, i have not noticed so i will have to check it up.

EDIT: - seems like you look on Parallels? the chart is for Tapers, and ive changed the value from 6.1 to 6.2 to make it fit with the FCM system from Rifle who is measured with a SW value of D3 while KBS uses D2

Ah yes, it was the parallels trimming instructions. However, it is does raise the question about a straight in c taper S parallel/taper having relatively/considerable difference in FCM? Would you expect it to be that large (6.2 vrs 5.5ish)?

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#613 Howard Jones

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:49 AM

View Posttrying2scratch, on 05 December 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Hoping you may be able to point me in the right direction.  I currently play KBS Ctaper Stiff ssx2 +.25".  The launch is a little higher than I would like and not a huge fan of the feel.  Kind of like I have to swing too hard load the shaft, was better after soft stepping but still not ideal. Originally this is why I tried to soft step, but think now that the shaft profile just doesn't work for me.  I'm 6'3 and 215lbs.

I'm planning on having my irons re shafted to play between 1-1.5" over std length.  39" 5 iron working down in 3/8" steps and PW-LW same length.

Do you have any experience with TT XL lite shafts?  They are low cost option, Do you know where the fit on the FCM chart?  

I also have a set of KBS Tour V x flex that I could extend but not sure of the FCM of those either.

I never used TT XL shafts, but they are " VERY stiff to flex" compared to others, but i would advice you NOT to use the shaft for ball flight issues, its not a good idea, especially in your case. First of all its only players with a late release who would see a difference to ball flight from the shaft profile, for others its only a feel and dispersion matter, and those 2 are the most important. If you are a late release player, then C-Taper should have been the way to go, but if its launching to high, only a even stronger flex would change that, and you feel its to strong already, so hold on to what you feel, and DONT try to find a shaft to solve it, you want find a shaft that can fix it all.

Start the hunt for "the right shaft" by WEIGHT, then go by feel and dispersion, and leave ball flight to static loft. We can bend most heads 2 up or down on loft, and thats way more than we can influence ball flight with vs using a shaft profile or flex to make it, so leave ball flight to static loft when the shaft is found.

C-Taper S flex taper has a build CPM of 321 as a #5 iron (FCM 6.2), while TT Lite XL is 333 as S (FCM 7.4)
Tip to butt ratio makes TT Lite XL a higher launching profile than C-Taper, so the shaft as a hole does not seems to be what you want.
TT Lite XL as R flex has a build CPM of 312 as a #5 iron (FCM 5.3) as a compare.

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#614 Howard Jones

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 12:56 AM

View PostBobBadger, on 05 December 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

View PostHoward Jones, on 05 December 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

View PostBobBadger, on 05 December 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but have Kbps changed the fcm of the c tapers. Their website suggests that for the S the fcm is between 4.5 (assume this ssx2) and 6.0 (assume hs), which should leave the straight in freq as 5.5 ish. The really helpful chart on this thread puts straight in S flex as 6.2. Has it changed over the years or is it my understanding?

Be gentle �� Thanks

No thats a good question, i have not noticed so i will have to check it up.

EDIT: - seems like you look on Parallels? the chart is for Tapers, and ive changed the value from 6.1 to 6.2 to make it fit with the FCM system from Rifle who is measured with a SW value of D3 while KBS uses D2

Ah yes, it was the parallels trimming instructions. However, it is does raise the question about a straight in c taper S parallel/taper having relatively/considerable difference in FCM? Would you expect it to be that large (6.2 vrs 5.5ish)?

Tapers is Constant weight, Parallels is descending weight so we talk 2 different animals and then you CANT expect them to be "equal" because they are not. Im no expert on KBS, so if you want more specs to compare C-Tapers Taper tip vs Paralells in different tip trim, go to this link and choose Chapter 5 - DFSi listing, and then go to page 181 and 182

http://www.hirekogol...itting-addendum

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#615 trying2scratch

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:56 AM

Thanks Howard, great info as always.

Another quick question, would the fact they are soft stepped twice mean they are actually playing lighter weight than straight in? Could that have an effect on the ball flight also?

Cheers!


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#616 Howard Jones

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 03:50 PM

View Posttrying2scratch, on 06 December 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Thanks Howard, great info as always.

Another quick question, would the fact they are soft stepped twice mean they are actually playing lighter weight than straight in? Could that have an effect on the ball flight also?

Cheers!

That depend on if we talk Constant weight shaft (mostly tapers) or descending weight shafts (mostly parallels)
Constant weight shafts loses weight when we soft step, and adds net weight if hard stepped, while descending weight shafts do not change.

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#617 ZeeJizzle

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 12:27 AM

Can anybody compare PXI 6.5 to c-taper 120s HS 1 time?

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#618 hoselrocketman

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 03:16 PM

View Postsmoky25, on 18 July 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

Howard did all the work. I'm just the messenger. But since you're offering, I'll take a Bud Lite.
  No.  He said a beer.  Not a Bud Lite......

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