247 replies to this topic

[3step]

Howard Jones, on 20 July 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

knickerbocker, on 20 July 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

This is very helpful, but I also think it ignores that some of these shafts are stiffer in different sections of the shaft which makes them play differently.  I personally feel DGS300 Taper Tip plays stiffer than PX5.5 - this chart would say the opposite.

I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of the chart.Its got nothing to do with feel or ball curves, or spin and launch values for that matter.

A certain club speed makes a need for a specific over all flex, but this value is changes by the amount of cpm's necessary due to the players way to swing his clubs.
I'm using high speed camera, and playback to see what happens during transition, swing time, downswing, and release of the club. The players weight and strength, and preference for feel (soft or stiff) is also parameters for correction. The sum you end up with is used to identify shaft who meets this needs.

Then you have to go to real life testing, and try the combo Head/Shaft, and measure with a trackman to see if you got where you wanted to, and also take the players feedback for feel and wish for ball curve into consideration. The chart is just for navigating in flex and shaft weight, but nothing of the other parameters needed to find the right shaft.

This kind of chart doesn't make sense to me either.

You can absolutely have two shafts with the SAME CPM butt frequency reading, that are widely DIFFERENT flexes, and most every golfer, upon hitting the two shaft varieties will be able to feel the DIFFERENT flex.

It doesn't make sense that so many clubmakers cling to this single criteria of quantifying a shaft, when butt frequency is just that- only one part of the overall shaft flex.

I know that EI charts are difficult to understand and relate to, but this analysis tells the whole movie, instead of a single snapshot of a butt frequency reading.

3 step

[rsenal]

Just wondering where the KBS Tour 90 stiff would fall into.

[tws_andrew]

I just don't get this.  I recently went to x100 from Project X 6.0 and 6.5.  X100 feels significantly stiffer to me than either of these but the chart doesn't agree

[BigLeftyinAZ]

Any chance to see how Nippon shafts fit on this chart?

[easyyy]

I will pin. Seems like this chart could be expanded to include Nippon and some others as well. Thanks for the hard work.

[word]

Also interested in where the Black Golds are at. I play a x soft step.

Thanks for the chart!

[cop]

gqjeff, on 20 July 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:

lucky guys in Europe getting fit by you Mr Jones..

I'm one of the lucky ones, that have a fitting by Howard Jones.

I've got a Krank Rage Driver with a Grafalloy Prolaunch AXIS shaft, and a Miura Tournement blade set with TT Tour Concept shafts from him. The play just perfect

[wukk]

i have also had the pleasure of Howard Jones´ fitting expertice, when he worked on my callaway x-prototype irons this summer, couldn´t be more happy with the service and level of finish he lays into his work.

Can´t wait for my next trip to his shop, an experience worth the drive and the cost

[Reid]

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

[PKMillerJr]

smoky25, on 18 July 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.

What is the FCM On X200 and X300 standard?

[smoky25]

PKMillerJr, on 30 October 2011 - 04:54 AM, said:

smoky25, on 18 July 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.

What is the FCM On X200 and X300 standard?

7.0 and 7.2

[smoky25]

Reid, on 29 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

Basically, the same in the mid irons, 5.5 in the long irons, and 6.5 in the short irons. This gives a mid-iron trajectory through the set.

[PKMillerJr]

smoky25, on 30 October 2011 - 08:00 AM, said:

PKMillerJr, on 30 October 2011 - 04:54 AM, said:

smoky25, on 18 July 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

Howard Jones asked me to help him post his new and improved shaft chart. Enjoy. Click the chart to enlarge.

What is the FCM On X200 and X300 standard?

7.0 and 7.2

Thank you!

[stonecutter908]

SImply awesome data.

Case and point why this site rocks.

[neova]

smoky25, on 30 October 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

Reid, on 29 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

Basically, the same in the mid irons, 5.5 in the long irons, and 6.5 in the short irons. This gives a mid-iron trajectory through the set.

Thanks for this EXCELLENT info! I have PX 6.0 Flighted in my irons This is perhaps why i found it softer (FCM 5.5) in my long irons and a bit harsher in my short irons (FCM 6.5).


"Assuming Long irons are (2,3,4), Mid irons are (5,6,7), and short irons are (8,9,PW), i'm thinking of the following re-shafting to create a PX 5.5 Flighted set based on my current PX 6.0 Flighted Set

3-iron PX5.5 => buy new PX5.0 3-iron shaft
4-iron PX5.5 => buy new PX5.0 4-iron shaft
5-iron PX6.0 => reuse existing PX5.5 3-iron shaft, butt cut to length
6-iron PX6.0 => reuse existing PX5.5 4-iron shaft, butt cut to length
7-iron PX6.0 => buy new PX5.5 7-iron shaft
8-iron PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 5-iron shaft, butt cut to length
9-iron PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 6-iron shaft, butt cut to length
PW PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 7-iron shaft, butt cut length

Does this make sense? or would it introduce inconsistent FCM problems with me effectively "soft stepping" the existing shafts while buying 3 new standard shafts?

Or maybe I'm just better of playing PX 5.5 non-flighted set, and just reshaft 5-PW with new PX5.5 shafts"

Edited by neova, 01 November 2011 - 03:38 PM.

[smoky25]

"Assuming Long irons are (2,3,4), Mid irons are (5,6,7), and short irons  are (8,9,PW), i'm thinking of the following re-shafting to create a PX  5.5 Flighted set based on my current PX 6.0 Flighted Set

3-iron PX5.5 => buy new PX5.0 3-iron shaft
4-iron PX5.5 => buy new PX5.0 4-iron shaft
5-iron PX6.0 => reuse existing PX5.5 3-iron shaft, butt cut to length
6-iron PX6.0 => reuse existing PX5.5 4-iron shaft, butt cut to length
7-iron PX6.0 => buy new PX5.5 7-iron shaft
8-iron PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 5-iron shaft, butt cut to length
9-iron PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 6-iron shaft, butt cut to length
PW PX6.5 => reuse existing PX6.0 7-iron shaft, butt cut length

Does this make sense? or would it introduce inconsistent FCM problems  with me effectively "soft stepping" the existing shafts while buying 3  new standard shafts?

Or maybe I'm just better of playing PX 5.5 non-flighted set, and just reshaft 5-PW with new PX5.5 shafts"

You are soft-stepping your mid and low irons when you do that. You would basically end up with a PX 5.0 set except for the 7 iron.  If you like the way your long irons hit now, leave them alone. If you need something softer in the rest of your set, just get PX 5.5 Flighted or reg PX 5.5 for them. The Flighted will get you PX 6.0's in your low irons and the regs will get you PX 5.5's.

[Pepperturbo]

knickerbocker, on 20 July 2011 - 12:11 PM, said:

This is very helpful, but I also think it ignores that some of these shafts are stiffer in different sections of the shaft which makes them play differently.  I personally feel DGS300 Taper Tip plays stiffer than PX5.5 - this chart would say the opposite.

Everyone differs when it comes to feel.  However, their personal feel doesn't necessary mean its accurate.  IMO - Howard's Chart is very accurate.  PX 5.5 is stiffer then S300, because PX 5.5 has a stiffer tip and butt then S300's.

[Pepperturbo]

Reid, on 29 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

In a word "NO".  They don't feel the same, nor are the trajectories the same.  I naturally hit a low-medium boring trajectory ball with flighted. I suspect that's because of my swing mechanics, and flighted butt sections are a bit stiffer then regular PX.   With PX 6.0 I hit a higher trajectory ball with long irons, including 1 & 2 iron.  I have been playing PX Flighted 6.0's in 2-SW since 2007, but have standard PX 6.0 shafts in separate 1 and 2 iron.

[neova]

smoky25, on 01 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

You are soft-stepping your mid and low irons when you do that. You would basically end up with a PX 5.0 set except for the 7 iron.  If you like the way your long irons hit now, leave them alone. If you need something softer in the rest of your set, just get PX 5.5 Flighted or reg PX 5.5 for them. The Flighted will get you PX 6.0's in your low irons and the regs will get you PX 5.5's.

Thanks! I'll probably get PX5.5 non-flighted for the rest of the set.

[bryanlevrets]

what an amazing chart!!!

Thanks Howard!

[streakey]

A really awesome chart. Clear and easy to understand. Is there somewhere that i could find the frequency of graphite shafts and a comparison like this chart? Such as Diamanas, fujikuras, etc? Thanks again for the chart

[Howard Jones]

smoky25, on 30 October 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

Reid, on 29 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

Basically, the same in the mid irons, 5.5 in the long irons, and 6.5 in the short irons. This gives a mid-iron trajectory through the set.

Sorry but you got it all wrong

A Flighted set is a mix of flexes, re+trimmed to change bendpoint and over all flex this way. Example PX 6.0 Flighted

Long iron 2+3+4 is actually one flex class stiffer so they are 6.5 trimmed at butt to both lower CPM down to 6.0 but also to give this shafts a higher launch compared to a 6.0 strait in

Short irons 8+9+PW is the the way around. They was only 5.5 to start with, but tip trim raises flex to 6.0 who also gives a lower launch, compared to a 6.0 strait in

Thats why this set is more descending in weight than others, since we use a strong and heavy shaft in the long irons, and i lighter and softer shaft in the short irons.  

Standard flight
6.5 shafts is 125 grams as std uncut
6.0 shafts is 120 grams as std uncut
5.5 shafts is 115 grams as std uncut

Flighted shafts got a different profile because of trim/bend point change, and they are 0,5 longer uncut so weights as a 5 iron (mid irons) uncut is like this

6.5 is 130 grams
6.0 is 125 grams
5.5 is 120 grams

Player testing at True Temper has shown a apex difference from changing bendpoint VS standard to be 10.8 feet from low to high launch.
Shafts tested was

6.0 Butt trimmed to 5.5 to be 5.5 High launch. Apex in test was 105.6 feet with a launch angle of 16.7*
5.5 Strait in
5.0 Tip trimmed to 5.5 to be 5.5  Low launch. Apex in test was 94.8 feet with a launch angle of 15,3*

So according to this a flighted set should give like 5,4 yards higher launch in the long irons, and 5,4 yards lower in the low irons, compared to standard flight

Flex suggestion from True Temper is that you go up 1 flex class if flighted is wanted, so if 6.0 standard is a good fit, Flighted should be 6.5 to compare, since changing bend point and mixing weights like this gives a softer over all feel from  flighted than standard.

Hope that makes sense

[neova]

Howard Jones, on 15 November 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

Example PX 6.0 Flighted

Long iron 2+3+4 is actually one flex class stiffer so they are 6.5 trimmed at butt to both lower CPM down to 6.0 but also to give this shafts a higher launch compared to a 6.0 strait in

Short irons 8+9+PW is the the way around. They was only 5.5 to start with, but tip trim raises flex to 6.0 who also gives a lower launch, compared to a 6.0 strait in

Great explanation on how the flighted shafts were tip/butt trimmed to achieve their overall flex and bend points!

Howard Jones, on 15 November 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

Flex suggestion from True Temper is that you go up 1 flex class if flighted is wanted, so if 6.0 standard is a good fit, Flighted should be 6.5 to compare, since changing bend point and mixing weights like this gives a softer over all feel from  flighted than standard.

I'm currently playing PX 6.0 Flighted. By True Temper's recommendation If i wanted to try non-flighted PX I should try PX 5.5 instead of PX 6.0? If this is true does it imply that the FCM of PX 6.0 Flighted will play somewhere between PX 5.5 (FCM 6.0) and PX 6.0 (FCM 6.5)?

thanks

[smoky25]

Howard Jones, on 15 November 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

smoky25, on 30 October 2011 - 08:12 AM, said:

Reid, on 29 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Do PX Flighted shaft flexes correlate with regular PX shafts? E.g. Would a PX Flighted 6.0 play the same (in terms of flex) as a PX 6.0?

Thanks

Basically, the same in the mid irons, 5.5 in the long irons, and 6.5 in the short irons. This gives a mid-iron trajectory through the set.

Sorry but you got it all wrong

A Flighted set is a mix of flexes, re+trimmed to change bendpoint and over all flex this way. Example PX 6.0 Flighted

Long iron 2+3+4 is actually one flex class stiffer so they are 6.5 trimmed at butt to both lower CPM down to 6.0 but also to give this shafts a higher launch compared to a 6.0 strait in

Short irons 8+9+PW is the the way around. They was only 5.5 to start with, but tip trim raises flex to 6.0 who also gives a lower launch, compared to a 6.0 strait in

Thats why this set is more descending in weight than others, since we use a strong and heavy shaft in the long irons, and i lighter and softer shaft in the short irons.  

Standard flight
6.5 shafts is 125 grams as std uncut
6.0 shafts is 120 grams as std uncut
5.5 shafts is 115 grams as std uncut

Flighted shafts got a different profile because of trim/bend point change, and they are 0,5 longer uncut so weights as a 5 iron (mid irons) uncut is like this

6.5 is 130 grams
6.0 is 125 grams
5.5 is 120 grams

Player testing at True Temper has shown a apex difference from changing bendpoint VS standard to be 10.8 feet from low to high launch.
Shafts tested was

6.0 Butt trimmed to 5.5 to be 5.5 High launch. Apex in test was 105.6 feet with a launch angle of 16.7*
5.5 Strait in
5.0 Tip trimmed to 5.5 to be 5.5  Low launch. Apex in test was 94.8 feet with a launch angle of 15,3*

So according to this a flighted set should give like 5,4 yards higher launch in the long irons, and 5,4 yards lower in the low irons, compared to standard flight

Flex suggestion from True Temper is that you go up 1 flex class if flighted is wanted, so if 6.0 standard is a good fit, Flighted should be 6.5 to compare, since changing bend point and mixing weights like this gives a softer over all feel from  flighted than standard.

Hope that makes sense

How much tip trim on a PX 5.0 taper tip to get it to 5.5?

[tinman]

TCNorthstars, on 20 July 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

Any idea where black gold regular flex would fit on that chart?

I'd love to know this too.

[Shaftology]

tElihu, on 20 July 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

Excellent info!!!

It does raise the question as to what size of a frequency window most players have (or can tell a difference with).  I'm wondering if I'll notice a difference if I change my FCM about, say, .2 FCM. Or do I need to make a more drastic change to see a difference.

In my experience, most players cannot feel .2 FCM difference, however, we start seeing changes in shot dispersion and launch angle at .3 FCM above or below the "optimal" as determined in our fitting process.  

And, great work Howard!  Thanks for doing this for the WRX community.

[herrhagen]

Didn´t know he was a golfer, nice.

[Howard Jones]

Im sorry for not following up this tread, and all the questions to me in it, but many of them cant be answered by me.

KBS 90 shafts
They dont tell about FCM values on the 90 series at the KBS web page, and im not a KBS dealer, so i dont have this shafts around to measure them myself. If someone done some readings on those, put them up with all numbers the actual club got while tested, but please NO GRIP. Its the only way i can add them to the chart

KBS shafts in my chart is adjusted with 1 cpm DOWN from KBS own chart.
The reason is that both DG and PX values is with swing weight D3, while KBS official chart is with D2
Raising SW 1 point, gives 1 cpm flex drop.

Nippon
The same goes for NIPPON shafts, I dont deal with them either, and they use flex board them self, so no CPM numbers are available from Nippon. If anyone got some numbers, please upload

DG Black Gold
Comming in next version. Numbers will be converted to match the same club specs as for the others.

Flighted VS standard in flex
Go up one flex class (6.0 to 6.5) if flighted is wanted. They want be the same, but close
Remember that weight of shafts goes up in the long irons when you choose Flighted. Good for some, not for others

Going longer or shorter
The chart im working on, also has a row for different playing lengths
Different bend profiles acts different when we go longer or shorter.
With the same heads, DG looses about one hole flex class at plus 1.5 inch,
X100 becomes the flex of S300, while PX 6.0 becomes PX 6.4 so they go completely different ways when we go longer. Thats why its important to have the same chart, but with variables for playing length, since that might turn the hole picture upside down.

FCM charts VS feel and ball flight
Again, FCM charts is not made to compare feel of flex, or Bend profile / Shaft behavior
Depending on your own swing mechanism, 1 bend profile respond better to your swing than others.
Analyzing your swing, and from those parameters choosing the best bend profile is still a job to be done, and this chart want help much in that matter, but we need a place to start it all, and thats where this chart comes in.

Butt CPM tells about the stiffness of the butt.
This section of the shaft is chosen from Club speed, adjusted for swing mechanism PRE impact.
If EVERY parameter from the players swing is MEDIUM, we START shaft testing from this values.

#6 IRON CLUB SPEED / FCM

70 MPH / 4.0
Add 1 cpm for each mph Club speed

80 MPH gives 5.0
90 MPH gives 6.0
100 MPH gives 7.0

All this with MEDIUM parameters from the swing, but what do we look for in the swing, and how do we adjust?

TEMPO
The time from address to impact
We might split them up in 3 time zones
Less than 0.8 seconds is FAST - STRONGER FLEX
Between 0.8 to 1.2 is MEDIUM -
More than 1.2 is SLOW - WEAKER FLEX

TEMPO is also a parameter for shaft weight.
A heavy shaft might be used to smooth out a strong players tempo and timing


TRANSITION
The turning of the club on top of your swing
The more power in use here, stiffer the butt should be.

DURATION
The length of your swing influence on how much you accelerate in your down swing
2 players with the same club speed, and the same release timing, where one of them only uses 3/4 Swing duration, needs different flex strength. The one with 3/4 of a swing has a shorter "drag strip" down to his release, so he is more power full than the other on this parameter.

DOWN SWING ACCELERATION
No matter duration, still pay attention to this. More power from the top down to release, more butt CPM strength is needed.

This are the factors from then players swing PRE impact i adjust for to find a good place to START shaft testing
The parameters above, sometimes moves us 10 cpm or more from MID/Club speed recs up or down, because we dont load the same way. One player might be smooth as butter when swinging his clubs, while another seem to be running on nuclear power all the way but they end up with the same club speed. That means TOTALY different flex needs, where club speed VS flex becomes 0/ZERO on the chart. One need stiffer, the other softer.

RELEASE timing
Now we need something else than the chart above.
Depending on your release timing, the shaft tip stiffness is the place to look at.
The chart above ONLY gives info on BUTT stiffness, NOTHING about the tip
Thats why we cant use it to judge high, medium or low ball flight, or spin or feel for that matter.

A good club maker will know the differences between this options, and what might be a good fit for you butt still, the 2 most important factor of them all, cant be found in any charts, and that is : How does this shaft plays in your hands with the club head you chosen to play, and how do you like it ?

Your own preference for feel, might dismiss a lot of the math above, so this is ONLY helping numbers for a place to START. testing

So the chart ive made, is ONLY for navigating in the need for BUTT CPM strength, due to PRE impact flex needs, combined with WEIGHT

MY word of advice for flex
There are different camps and opinions when the question about soft or stiffer is better comes up
Since its the way the club head is delivered to the ball that makes the "numbers", we cant improve by going up or down, when we found optimum. BUT there are a few thing that you might find useful to know.

A shaft TO STIFF, will take away from you, valuable information from feed back about how the shaft itself is working during the swing. The stiffer it gets, the more of this info you loose. Much to often ive seen players choosen a shaft so stiif, that they have to "step on it"  to make it work. Its no good for scoring if you start out with a shaft like that. You will over play, and burn out yourself for energy, before hole 18.

Choose a shaft that not only performs good for you, and feels good at impact, but choose the shaft with a flex and bend profile who gives you the best feel of how the shaft works during the hole swing. This is the club you will play the best with. You improve control of the club by choosing right here.

I look forward to upload a better chart than above, and if anyone got numbers for Nippon, KBS 90, or any shaft not mentioned, feel free to apply the numbers here, but remember to tell ALL specs on the club tested, so the numbers can be converted right to get into the chart

BUTT CPM
SWING WEIGHT
CLUB LENGTH
CLAMP LENGTH
NO GRIP

This numbers is whats needed if i shall be able to use the numbers, and fit them into the chart

Edited by Howard Jones, 24 December 2011 - 02:45 AM.

[Howard Jones]

herrhagen, on 22 December 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

Didn´t know he was a golfer, nice.

LOL...HJ is only my alias, its not my real name, so i got nothing to do with the musician Howard Jones, and im not one of the Bosses at Fujikura Europe either. ;-)

Since club fitting and club making is my game, i think this HJ tune "fits" better

[Howard Jones]

OUTSIDE the chart

Since a lot of you are searching for info about how one shaft performs vs another, id like to fill you inn with some info about the 2 shafts i know the best, and who they are the best match for, and thats DG vs PX

First pay attention to weight.
Weight is a factor, not only for the potential of club speed, but it also influence on your swing tempo and stability in your swing plane
Since standard flight PX and comparable flex DG is far apart in weight, the comparable flexes is not meant for the same player.

DG is heavy, and better if there is a need to slow down and smooth out swing tempo, while PX is for the player in CONTROL of his own swing tempo. If more weight than standard flight PX offers is wanted, Flighted PX one flex class up will get us closer in weight, but then as descending weight

Release timing
The later and more CONSTANT the players release timing is, the better he will be able play a PX shaft
The PX shaft is more sensitive to variables in release timing vs DG, so if the players release is variable, he will, not get good dispersion with a PX shaft. For this player the shaft profile of DG is more "forgiving". He will see better dispersion with DG.

The key here is CONTROL
The better the player is in control of his swing, and the later he releases the club, on a constant release timing, the better he will be able to play a PX shaft. Any need for smoothing out a players errors or inconstancy, will bias the shaft choice against a DG shaft.

WHY is this different you might ask.
Bend profile and step pattern or lack of step pattern is the answer

If we go by the rules of energy in the nature, we know that we cant make energy, only transfer or convert it if it already exist. In Golf, you the player provides the energy, and the shaft is the transmission of this energy.
A shaft dont ADD energy to the swing or impact, but different shaft profiles eats different amounts of energy in transmission, so the efficiency of 2 shafts might be different, yes even with the same zone flexes.

A stepped shaft like DG, looses energy in transfer of power in each step from butt to tip, but also the lenght of the parallel section, and the speed of the stepping influence on how much power who gets lost here.
DG also has the relative softest part of the shaft in the BUTT, so this is the profile who provides less dynamic loft in the first place.

PX is a non stepped shaft. Is was a stepped shaft half way done, but every step is smoothed out in a taper pattern, as constant as possible, to lower the loss of energy in transmission. PX got it weakest part in the mid section, and that provides more dynamic loft at impact than a soft butt does.

So PX will respond more to different release timing, than DG does, and now you know why.
PX got a lower bend point, and a higher power transfer, when released right, and thats whats make them more sensible to the players release, vs DG

Edited by Howard Jones, 24 December 2011 - 04:49 AM.