251 replies to this topic

[MattTitleist]

Howard, when using a 5" clamp to freq match what should the slope be? Still the normal 4.3 based on the FCM scale?

[Howard Jones]

Rifle is 4.3 with a 2.5 Clamp (Old model), the new from 2012 uses a 5.0 clamp, but other shafts dont always have a slope of 4.3, thats Rifle design.

[MattTitleist]

I'm using CTapers so I would guess they are based off the same slope as the creator pretty much created the freq machine.

[6OVER]

Howard your chart shows KBS Tour R = 5.0 on the rifle scale are the KBS Tour  90 R shafts the same just lighter?

Edited by 6OVER, 22 February 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Howard Jones]

6OVER, on 22 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Howard your chart shows KBS Tour R = 5.0 on the rifle scale are the KBS Tour  90 R shafts the same just lighter?

Im sorry but i dont have any specs on KBS 90 series

[SwooshLT]

Howard.....I tried the new px95 shaft in 5.5....surprisingly I had moderate success but I'm contemplating the 5.0......not a spring chicken and losing strength daily...maybe softstep the 5.5?

I currently hit 7 iron 145 with my Nike PC....px95 is in demo Rocketbladez Tour 7iron and distance is up to 153-155

[Howard Jones]

TMAG FIREMEDIC, on 23 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Howard.....I tried the new px95 shaft in 5.5....surprisingly I had moderate success but I'm contemplating the 5.0......not a spring chicken and losing strength daily...maybe softstep the 5.5?

I currently hit 7 iron 145 with my Nike PC....px95 is in demo Rocketbladez Tour 7iron and distance is up to 153-155

Did you compare LOFT on those clubs ? Can you STOP the ball with a iron like the RBZ
Irons is NOT about how long you hit them, but how precise you hit them, so dont get impressed by a few yards, because if you cant stop the ball like you wants to, it might be too long, and over the green caused by roll off.

About the PX95, its all new to me, and i dont have many customers in this weight range, so i have to admit i dont know that shaft form anything else than info from True Temper, and thats the regular commercial  B...s...so all i really know is weight range and that its flighted. If its following other PX steel models, a soft stepping of a 5.5 gives "PX 5.1" and its mostly in cases where we wants a bit more shaft weight we soft step a stronger PX shaft, but here the weight is the same, so i say go 5.0
The only argument i can see to go 5.5 SS1 is to get a shaft for your GW from the same series.

[SwooshLT]

Thanks. ....the Rocketbladez Tour has "traditional lofts" the shaft also shorter than my current set....former scratch player; not impressed by distance; trajectory and forgiveness are perfect.....very accurate combo; just what I'm looking for....I completely understand what irons are for but couldn't find that combo of stability and lightweight for more speed...that has changed.....px95 delivers!

[MattTitleist]

Howard,

When using DGX100 what clamp length and what freq slope do you build to? Also what is the target CPM for a 6iron at Std length 37.5"?  Thanks
If you could post the CPM for each club like you did earlier for DGR300 and S300 that would be very helpful and which clamp length that is. Thanks!!

Edited by MattTitleist, 24 February 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Howard Jones]

Im not at my job computer at the moment, so i dont have it for std length with SW D3 at hand, but i found a job where i used DGX100Ti for a set of irons and wedges at plus 5/8", SW D7

CPM slope with a 2.5 clamp is average 4.4, and with a 5.0 clamp its 5.4

Remember a few things. DG is not made to be judge this way, and most CPM readers dont use decimals, so 300.4 becomes becomes 300.0 and 300.6 becomes 301. To judge slope, you will have to accept that flex goes a bit up and down, but as a set from longest to shortest there will be a average like this numbers of 4.4 or 5.4, so Dynamic Gold DOES NOT follow the 4.3 slope as Rifle/FCM so the set as a hole in this case got FCM 6.4 as #3 iron to FCM 7.0 as #9 iron

Here is a snap shot of the excel files im logging for each set i make.(this is page 3 of 3 only)
http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/402820/full

CPM values is to the right

[MattTitleist]

That's for the help Howard, if you find those CPM numbers for STD length at D3 I would really love to see those.
I am looking to effectively build mine at 7.0 so based on the rest of this thread it sounds like 1/4" tipping is what I am looking for. And then try and get a 5-6cpm slope between each club.

[rybo]

Howard,

What is the FCM change for the following:

KBS Tour X +1/2" =

DG Gold X100 +1/2" =

PX 6.5 +1/2" =

[Howard Jones]

rybo, on 06 March 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Howard,

What is the FCM change for the following:

KBS Tour X +1/2" =

DG Gold X100 +1/2" =

PX 6.5 +1/2" =

I dont have KBS shafts to measure, but it also depend a bit on BBGM, but with a BBGM at 1 2/16 ive measured 2x #8 iron shafts cut to std 36.50 play - plus 0.5 and plus 1.0

With a 285 gram drill chuck

Shaft     std / 0.5 / 1.0
X100   379 / 371 / 365
PX6.5  393/ 384/ 374

Going up 0.5 is going up 3 SW point, so we must add 3 CPM on 0.5 and 6 CPM on 1.0
Going up 0.5 is going down 4.3 on the FCM scale so we must add 4.3 on 0.5 and  8.6 on 1.0

Then we get as "comparable numbers"

Shaft     std / 0.5 / 1.0
X100   379 / 378,3 / 379,6 = No change
PX6.5  393/ 391,3/ 388,6 = Down 2 at 0.5, down 4 at 1.0 over std.

[stealthrt91]

So I read the part on how Rifle Flighted FCMs change according to length tool, but all things considered - would I be close to assume that Rifle Flighted 6.0s soft stepped once are about the same as Project X 6.0s soft stepped twice?

[Howard Jones]

stealthrt91, on 11 March 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

So I read the part on how Rifle Flighted FCMs change according to length tool, but all things considered - would I be close to assume that Rifle Flighted 6.0s soft stepped once are about the same as Project X 6.0s soft stepped twice?

By theory they are close BUTT SIDE, but PX will still be stronger "over all" so we cant say they "feel" the same, and they dont.

[Asleep]

Any comparison info on the Ping CFS or ZZ65 shafts?

[Golf Ball Wacker Guy]

Is there a difference between a soft stepped Px 6.5 and a soft stepped pxi 6.5? Or do the numbers stay the same?

[Howard Jones]

Golf Ball Wacker Guy, on 14 March 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Is there a difference between a soft stepped Px 6.5 and a soft stepped pxi 6.5? Or do the numbers stay the same?

EDIT
Se new anwser with numbers below

Edited by Howard Jones, 14 March 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Golf Ball Wacker Guy]

I was curious if the info from the chart went towards both. I'm thinking I'll be just fine straight in. However, if I play +1/2'' will they play softer, stiffer or the same?. Thanks for all your help

[Howard Jones]

Golf Ball Wacker Guy, on 14 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I was curious if the info from the chart went towards both. I'm thinking I'll be just fine straight in. However, if I play +1/2'' will they play softer, stiffer or the same?. Thanks for all your help

I really think we should reconsider the way we judge flex, and i base that on my own finding, and the new Project X PXI. For a club maker like me, numbers all day is fine, i know how to read them and use them, but many others would not be able to use them right. There is no info from True Temper who say anything else than that ordinary PX 6.5 is to be judged side by side with PXi 6.5 but this shafts in pure "numbers" is as far from "apples to apples" as  "6.5 compare" as you can get. However, we can never really compare different shafts by their flex label only, and not in this case either.

My point is, TEST the shaft, dont try to judge it by a FCM value or butt flex. It has never been right and it will never be.
- We can use Butt CPM to measure the same shaft and compare it to other when we make a set of the same model, but its next to useless as a compare between 2 different shaft models, even if they come from the same factory with the same flex label.
Before you read on. swallow your coffee, and put the cup in the table please:-)
- PXI 6.5 in pure numbers, is a close as can be to Project X 5.0 Flighted.......... No its not a typo i wrote PX 5.0 Flighted.

WOW , how can a PX 5.0 Flighted be compared to PX 6.5 standard ?.......i cant really answer that and i dont think True Temper meant them to be comparable in flex matters, but shaft flex is not to manage club speed alone, but SWING and FEEL, and in the end of the road it all boils down to : What ever works the best for YOU, is the best option for YOU.

What im trying to say is, if you fit to play PX 6.5 SS1, dont think that easy as that then PXi 6.5 SS1 is right for you. There is no way to tell how YOU respond to the lighter weight and softer flex. It might mess up your game, or give you the feel you can beet anyone, even on the Tour, so what you have to do is get fitted, and test it.

Here is PX vs PX Flighted vs PXi as pure numbers from Tom Wishon Shaft Profiling Software
http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/404612/full

PX Flighted is discontinued, but PXI is "kinda" flighted but Constant weight, and lighter in the long irons, so its a better option for those we sold the Flighted model to earlier, and no doubt a smooth feeling shaft, but softer flex is why.
- This very shaft the PXI, is kind of a proof that flex is not meant to be judged by raw numbers or labels, but player testing, and many former PX players found them self more than comfortable with PXI in the same flex label as they played before.
- Flex can be judged on the paper by math and pure numbers from a launch monitor, and judgments of the players swing, but thats only "a better place to start testing" than a chart who says 90 MPH = X flex.

- The players preference for feel and the shaft that actually works the best for the player is the right choice  NO MATTER how the numbers for that shaft might look on the paper. A good club maker would now how to judge it all, because he has "seen it all" but surprises and new learning from odd experiences has learned most of us to judge shafts by much more than numbers only, but we could not done that without them

Here is some compatible numbers for you on what happens to PXI 6.5 when.......
- Base is PXI 6.5 - 38.50 #6 iron shaft, as cut to "std" play length at 37.50 with a Scratch EZ1 head with a BBGM of  1 1/4"
All measurements is done with a 285 gram drill chuck

Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
340 /333 / 326

This is "raw #" but to judge them we must convert them to be compatible.
- If we use the FCM system, the CPM value drops by 4.3 CPM for each 0.5 we go longer
Thats why we must add 4.3 to the number at 0.5 and add 8.6 to the number at 1.0
- The same club head, where we only go longer and accept the raise and change in SW value will then give

Std / 0.5 / 1.0
340 /337.3/ 334,6/

Is flex changed ? we cant tell yet, because if we use the FCM system, all numbers is judged with the same SW value, so to see if flex went softer or stronger we must change the numbers 1 more time, this time for the difference in SW value.
- Going longer 0.5 is going up 3 SW points, and going up 1.0 is going up 6 SW point.
Since 1 SW point "eats" 1 CPM on the reader, we must now ADD 3 CPM at 0.5 and 6 CPM at 1.0

Std / 0.5 / 1.0
340 /340.3/ 340,6/

Nothing happens to flex when we go longer with PXi 6.5, judged by the same rules as in the FCM system but that does NOT mean they will FEEL the same, but lets Soft step them and see what happens to the numbers. Now we use the 39.00 #5 iron shaft
-This time, we dont have to do all the math, we can compare the "RAW" numbers directly, so i cut & paste them from the #6 iron

Shaft........ Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
PXi6.5...... 340 /333 / 326
SSx1........ 334/ 327 / 321
------------------------------------
Differ........ 6  / 6  /  5

IF the PXi 6.5 label indicated that this shaft was FCM 6.5, we can now say that at SS1 it dropped to 5.9, so PXi becomes way softer when we soft step them then other shafts we are used to, and they are soft to flex to start with.
- I only had 1 shaft of each to measure since i only stock the 6.5 version, so to make sure this trend was right, i measured as SS2 also, but this time the drop is different.

Shaft........ Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
PXi6.5...... 340 /333 / 326
SSx1........ 334/ 327 / 320
SSx2.........333/ 325 / 319

What ? difference from standard to SSx1 is 6 CPM, but from SS1 to SS2 its only 1 or 2 CPM
- Project X PXi is a animal of its own, and a special one, and the only thing the 6.5 label tells us is that this is the strongest option in the PXi series, nothing else.

Sorry for this long winding story, but i think its important in this tread where all is tracing numbers to give a clear advice about how we shall use them. Use them to navigate, NOT as the "catalog" you order your new shaft from. Only real life testing will tell whats right for each player, so please dont choose by numbers or labels only.

Good wind out there :-)

[e46darnell]

This is awesome. Thanks to Howard Jones.

[holein3]

Many many thanks to OP

[PingDrv00]

Howard Jones, on 14 March 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Golf Ball Wacker Guy, on 14 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

I was curious if the info from the chart went towards both. I'm thinking I'll be just fine straight in. However, if I play +1/2'' will they play softer, stiffer or the same?. Thanks for all your help

I really think we should reconsider the way we judge flex, and i base that on my own finding, and the new Project X PXI. For a club maker like me, numbers all day is fine, i know how to read them and use them, but many others would not be able to use them right. There is no info from True Temper who say anything else than that ordinary PX 6.5 is to be judged side by side with PXi 6.5 but this shafts in pure "numbers" is as far from "apples to apples" as  "6.5 compare" as you can get. However, we can never really compare different shafts by their flex label only, and not in this case either.

My point is, TEST the shaft, dont try to judge it by a FCM value or butt flex. It has never been right and it will never be.
- We can use Butt CPM to measure the same shaft and compare it to other when we make a set of the same model, but its next to useless as a compare between 2 different shaft models, even if they come from the same factory with the same flex label.
Before you read on. swallow your coffee, and put the cup in the table please:-)
- PXI 6.5 in pure numbers, is a close as can be to Project X 5.0 Flighted.......... No its not a typo i wrote PX 5.0 Flighted.

WOW , how can a PX 5.0 Flighted be compared to PX 6.5 standard ?.......i cant really answer that and i dont think True Temper meant them to be comparable in flex matters, but shaft flex is not to manage club speed alone, but SWING and FEEL, and in the end of the road it all boils down to : What ever works the best for YOU, is the best option for YOU.

What im trying to say is, if you fit to play PX 6.5 SS1, dont think that easy as that then PXi 6.5 SS1 is right for you. There is no way to tell how YOU respond to the lighter weight and softer flex. It might mess up your game, or give you the feel you can beet anyone, even on the Tour, so what you have to do is get fitted, and test it.

Here is PX vs PX Flighted vs PXi as pure numbers from Tom Wishon Shaft Profiling Software
http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/404612/full

PX Flighted is discontinued, but PXI is "kinda" flighted but Constant weight, and lighter in the long irons, so its a better option for those we sold the Flighted model to earlier, and no doubt a smooth feeling shaft, but softer flex is why.
- This very shaft the PXI, is kind of a proof that flex is not meant to be judged by raw numbers or labels, but player testing, and many former PX players found them self more than comfortable with PXI in the same flex label as they played before.
- Flex can be judged on the paper by math and pure numbers from a launch monitor, and judgments of the players swing, but thats only "a better place to start testing" than a chart who says 90 MPH = X flex.

- The players preference for feel and the shaft that actually works the best for the player is the right choice  NO MATTER how the numbers for that shaft might look on the paper. A good club maker would now how to judge it all, because he has "seen it all" but surprises and new learning from odd experiences has learned most of us to judge shafts by much more than numbers only, but we could not done that without them

Here is some compatible numbers for you on what happens to PXI 6.5 when.......
- Base is PXI 6.5 - 38.50 #6 iron shaft, as cut to "std" play length at 37.50 with a Scratch EZ1 head with a BBGM of  1 1/4"
All measurements is done with a 285 gram drill chuck

Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
340 /333 / 326

This is "raw #" but to judge them we must convert them to be compatible.
- If we use the FCM system, the CPM value drops by 4.3 CPM for each 0.5 we go longer
Thats why we must add 4.3 to the number at 0.5 and add 8.6 to the number at 1.0
- The same club head, where we only go longer and accept the raise and change in SW value will then give

Std / 0.5 / 1.0
340 /337.3/ 334,6/

Is flex changed ? we cant tell yet, because if we use the FCM system, all numbers is judged with the same SW value, so to see if flex went softer or stronger we must change the numbers 1 more time, this time for the difference in SW value.
- Going longer 0.5 is going up 3 SW points, and going up 1.0 is going up 6 SW point.
Since 1 SW point "eats" 1 CPM on the reader, we must now ADD 3 CPM at 0.5 and 6 CPM at 1.0

Std / 0.5 / 1.0
340 /340.3/ 340,6/

Nothing happens to flex when we go longer with PXi 6.5, judged by the same rules as in the FCM system but that does NOT mean they will FEEL the same, but lets Soft step them and see what happens to the numbers. Now we use the 39.00 #5 iron shaft
-This time, we dont have to do all the math, we can compare the "RAW" numbers directly, so i cut & paste them from the #6 iron

Shaft........ Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
PXi6.5...... 340 /333 / 326
SSx1........ 334/ 327 / 321
------------------------------------
Differ........ 6  / 6  /  5

IF the PXi 6.5 label indicated that this shaft was FCM 6.5, we can now say that at SS1 it dropped to 5.9, so PXi becomes way softer when we soft step them then other shafts we are used to, and they are soft to flex to start with.
- I only had 1 shaft of each to measure since i only stock the 6.5 version, so to make sure this trend was right, i measured as SS2 also, but this time the drop is different.

Shaft........ Std  / 0.5 / 1.0 - Play length
PXi6.5...... 340 /333 / 326
SSx1........ 334/ 327 / 320
SSx2.........333/ 325 / 319

What ? difference from standard to SSx1 is 6 CPM, but from SS1 to SS2 its only 1 or 2 CPM
- Project X PXi is a animal of its own, and a special one, and the only thing the 6.5 label tells us is that this is the strongest option in the PXi series, nothing else.

Sorry for this long winding story, but i think its important in this tread where all is tracing numbers to give a clear advice about how we shall use them. Use them to navigate, NOT as the "catalog" you order your new shaft from. Only real life testing will tell whats right for each player, so please dont choose by numbers or labels only.

Good wind out there :-)

In your approximation why do you think that the PXi's play so weak to flex?  Do you think that it may have been True Tempers thought to go the opposite route versus standard Project X which played much stiffer than it's relative flex, and help guide people to a shaft that specs out softer than labeled?

[Howard Jones]

Im not True Temper, so i cant answer for them, but if you take a closer look at Project X line up for irons, its "a hole brand" of shafts, who covers most players. The regular PX steel on top as max weight and flex, PX Graphite a tad softer but 90 gram series, Then the PXi series, and finally the latest PX95 Flighted. This gives both the customer and the dealer a lot of options  so i dont think that PXI is "bad" in any manners, its a very good shaft, but its weaker then the regular PX by a lot, so i would not compare them labels by label. IMO weight is more important than flex, and a strong flex often means a combined need with more shaft weight, and lower launch, so the regular PX and the PXI is a line up from 108 to 130 grams the way i see them.

The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight, because weight is almost equal to BUTT flex strength. That gives a STEEL option list like this, sorted by flex strength - Butt CPM (a few exceptions so weight/flex)

PX 7.0 = 130 gram -
PX 6.5 = 125 gram
PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram
PXi 5.5 = 108 gram
PXi 5.0 = 108 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip

[PingDrv00]

Howard Jones, on 03 April 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Im not True Temper, so i cant answer for them, but if you take a closer look at Project X line up for irons, its "a hole brand" of shafts, who covers most players. The regular PX steel on top as max weight and flex, PX Graphite a tad softer but 90 gram series, Then the PXi series, and finally the latest PX95 Flighted. This gives both the customer and the dealer a lot of options  so i dont think that PXI is "bad" in any manners, its a very good shaft, but its weaker then the regular PX by a lot, so i would not compare them labels by label. IMO weight is more important than flex, and a strong flex often means a combined need with more shaft weight, and lower launch, so the regular PX and the PXI is a line up from 108 to 130 grams the way i see them.

The easy way to judge PX VS PXi in my opinion, is to list them by official weight, because weight is almost equal to BUTT flex strength. That gives a STEEL option list like this, sorted by flex strength - Butt CPM (a few exceptions so weight/flex)

PX 7.0 = 130 gram -
PX 6.5 = 125 gram
PX 6.0 = 120 gram
PX 5.5 = 115 gram
PXi 6.5 = 117 gram
PX 5.0 = 115 gram
PXi 6.0 = 112 gram
PXi 5.5 = 108 gram
PXi 5.0 = 108 gram

If we shall judge the shaft as a hole, just add the hole PXI series to the bottom of the regular, since PXI is softer mid and tip

I would take as a token that the Project X 95 would play even weaker than PXi?  I thought I saw one chart where Project X PXi and Dynamic Gold S300 were very close in flex and characeristics, is this correct?

[Howard Jones]

..compared to other know shafts, MAYBE they been thinking that PX is stronger than "Label", and those labels came from Rifle who is FCM to that Label.....Here is PX 5.0 vs PXi 6.5 vs RIfle 6.0 and 6.5

PXI is only softer at butt, compared to Rifle 6.5, but we never play a shaft to full length, so the very end the butt is not all you can feel butt side, (36" from tip), the 31" is just as important.

http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/406626/full

Maybe thats why they gave it the label 6.5 ?

PX95 have not been in my shop jet, so i dont know it at all, most shafts i sell is 115 grams and above, so i dont know it that shaft follows the same weight/flex system i can see between PX and PXi.

DGS300 is stiffer than PXI 6.5 at 36 and 31, but then PXI becomes the strongest to the tip.
PX 5.0 Flighted is closer to PXi 6.5

http://peecee.dk/upl...iew/406632/full

Edited by Howard Jones, 03 April 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[geeza_1]

Fantastic info, Howard!

Could you maybe post shaft profile numbers for the c-taper (0.355) too? I am currently playing the PX 5.5, but am thinking of experimenting with the c-taper and am confused as to flex. I would love to get numbers on the R+, S and S+.

[holein3]

Howard I would really appreciate your advice on a different matter in this thread:

http://www.golfwrx.c...s-reply-needed/

P.S. Awesome shaft chart it has been infinitely helpful in making some shaft decisions recently.  Please check out the link I'm posting here, thanks.  I tried to PM you, but as you know wrx won't allow me to do that.

[krj122]

DGS300 is 5.8 which I feel is slightly to soft for me, DGX100 ss is 6.5 which I feel may be slightly too stiff. Would KBS C Taper Stiff 6.2 be a good shaft to try in between the 2?

[Howard Jones]

Please DONT use this BUTT numbers to judge flex as a hole, because its hardly a part of it.
- I dont have specs for C taper, but the mid and tip is stronger than comparable DG, so dont get fooled by butt strength alone.
C-Taper is designed by the same man who designed Project X, so they are stiffer than most other shafts in general, and thats why KBS suggest soft stepping for most players.

The difference between S300 and X100 is not like many thinks it is. X100 got a softer tip who offset most of the stronger feel, so dont be afraid of X100 at all, its NOT a monster shaft.

Here is some zone flex numbers from Tom Wishons shaft profiling software
Pay attention to the numbers at 26 to 11 inch from the tip, not only BUTT or 36
http://peecee.dk/upl...<br /> <br /> C - Taper is expected to be close to PX

Edited by Howard Jones, 09 April 2013 - 10:24 AM.