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Taking relief from cart path


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#1 misterlau

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:51 PM

I don't know why I forget the details of this rule the rare times it happens on the course, but it happened to me this morning. I think my forgetfulness cost me a stroke and I want to make sure I get this right next time.

The ball ended up on the right edge of the cart path. I determined my nearest point of relief was to the right of the path. For some reason, I forgot that I get 1 club length from this point, but when I realized I had no shot at the green, I even asked my playing partner if I could take my drop from the left side of the path. I was told no since the nearest point of relief was obviously on the right side. I dropped at the nearest point of relief instead of taking a club length from this point.

If my driver is long enough to reach from the nearest point of relief over to the grass on the other side of the path, I should be entitled to take a free drop on the other side right? I understand that I'd most likely be trying to drop on a pretty narrow area between the full club length and the path.


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#2 Newby

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:24 PM

1) Providing there was no interference from the path when you dropped at the npr rather than 1cl away, you were ok.

2) Yes, if your driver or long putter will reach across the path to the other side then you may drop there.
However, if the path was that narrow it is unlikely that your npr would have been on right anyway, unless you were using a much shorter club to determine your npr.

#3 Guia

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:40 PM

I don't believe that your club determines the nearest point of relief (I will look it up and post result).  I have always taken a stance at the nearest point of relief and then measured one club length to take the drop from that point.  Meaning that the nearest point of relief is where you have a stance that does not touch the cart path with your feet or ball.

I have never seen anyone who could measure back across a covered permanent path as measured relief would be your behind your npr stance?

#4 Guia

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:51 PM

24-2b/1 Determining "Nearest Point of Relief"Posted Image

Q. The Note to the Definition of "Nearest Point of Relief" provides that the player should determine this point "by using the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke." May the player use any club, address position, direction of play or swing in determining the nearest point of relief?

A.No. In determining the nearest point of relief accurately it is recommended that the player use the club, address position, direction of play and swing (right or left-handed) that he would have used had the obstruction or condition not been there. For example, the player has interference from an immovable obstruction and, were it not for the obstruction, he would have used a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron to play the ball from its original position towards the green. To determine the nearest point of relief accurately, he should use a right-handed stroke with a 4-iron and the direction of play should be towards the green. See also Decisions 20-2c/0.7 and 20-2c/0.8.

You took an inappropriate action.





#5 larrybud

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:26 PM

View Postmisterlau, on 16 July 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't know why I forget the details of this rule the rare times it happens on the course, but it happened to me this morning. I think my forgetfulness cost me a stroke and I want to make sure I get this right next time.

The ball ended up on the right edge of the cart path. I determined my nearest point of relief was to the right of the path. For some reason, I forgot that I get 1 club length from this point, but when I realized I had no shot at the green, I even asked my playing partner if I could take my drop from the left side of the path. I was told no since the nearest point of relief was obviously on the right side. I dropped at the nearest point of relief instead of taking a club length from this point.

If my driver is long enough to reach from the nearest point of relief over to the grass on the other side of the path, I should be entitled to take a free drop on the other side right? I understand that I'd most likely be trying to drop on a pretty narrow area between the full club length and the path.

There's no way in the world that your club will ever reach on the other side of the path.  Your "nearest point of relief" will be at least 36" to the right of the path because you have to take full relief, meaning you can't take a drop and still stand on the path.  

On the same note, just because the ball is resting on the right portion of a path doesn't necessarily mean that the nearest point of relief will be to the right of the path.


#6 kevcarter

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 07:35 PM

Everybody is assuming the OP is right handed...
I could be wrong.
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I will be again.
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#7 misterlau

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:22 PM

Wow, I didn't think I would get so many differing replies. Perhaps I should clarify.

The ball ended up on the right edge of the cart path. I needed an 8 iron to reach the green. I stood to the right of the ball until my feet were completely off of the path and on the grass, took my address position with my intended club to determine the nearest point of relief, and marked where the ball would need to be for me to get complete relief from the path.

In this particular case, I dropped at this point, which offered me complete relief from the obstruction, and was no nearer the hole.  The part of the rule I missed was that after determining the nearest point of relief, you can measure one club length from said point, no nearer the hole, and drop within that one club length. Dropping directly at the point of the relief should be legal since it's clearly within one club length of itself, so I don't think I broke any rules; I simply didn't take full advantage of the free relief I was due.

The question I had was, if I had a club-length that could reach across the path to the left side of the path (driver or maybe long putter) from my nearest point of relief, would it be legal to drop on the left side? Even if it only reached a few inches (more than a balls width) over the path, I could attempt to drop on this narrow area twice, and if it fell outside of the club-length (to the left) or onto the path (to the right), I would be able to place it.

#8 misterlau

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:26 PM

View Postlarrybud, on 16 July 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

There's no way in the world that your club will ever reach on the other side of the path.  Your "nearest point of relief" will be at least 36" to the right of the path because you have to take full relief, meaning you can't take a drop and still stand on the path.  

On the same note, just because the ball is resting on the right portion of a path doesn't necessarily mean that the nearest point of relief will be to the right of the path.

I'm not so sure about that. I see what you're saying about the distance, but maybe if I had a long putter maxed out, I played with the ball really close to me with a choked down wedge, and the path was narrow......

You are right on the second part though. I should have marked the points of relief of both sides of the path and measured to see which one was closer. What happens if both end up equal? Do you get your pick?

#9 Guia

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:31 PM

No you could not, because in order to drop on the other side of the path your back would be to that point.  Your stance and the club you would normally use to make a shot clear of the obstruction determine where the 1 club drop distance takes place.  That means you are facing to your right or an angle to your right, drops are made with your arm extended straight out, not behind you.

I posted the rules:  it was very clear, no way you could end up on the other side of the path if you were right or left handed.

#10 kevcarter

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:15 PM

View PostGuia, on 16 July 2011 - 09:31 PM, said:


I posted the rules:  it was very clear, no way you could end up on the other side of the path if you were right or left handed.

I believe your interpretation to be incorrect.

Kevin

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#11 Guia

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 10:36 PM

Well, that would not be the first time, but I have an IQ of practically 70.:cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

#12 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:12 AM

View Postmisterlau, on 16 July 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

The question I had was, if I had a club-length that could reach across the path to the left side of the path (driver or maybe long putter) from my nearest point of relief, would it be legal to drop on the left side? Even if it only reached a few inches (more than a balls width) over the path, I could attempt to drop on this narrow area twice, and if it fell outside of the club-length (to the left) or onto the path (to the right), I would be able to place it.

In theory you are correct. In practice it is unlikely that the condition would happen.
The path would have to be very narrow for it to work out. ie a stance would have to be available on the opposite side of the path to the npr when determining the npr.

However if you took relief from a sprinkler head it will certainly work.
If your ball is in the middle of the SH, you npr will be on a semi-circle around the head.. You can drop the ball on the 'far' side and still stand on the 'near' side.

See attached diagram.

1 represents stance for original position
2 represents stance for determining npr
3 represents stance using long club to play stroke

Edited to add: You can see that 1cl from the npr will take the drop range (using the green club) to the left of the path. I will post another diagram to show this.



narrow path npr.jpg

Edited by Newby, 17 July 2011 - 09:29 AM.


#13 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:36 AM

View Postmisterlau, on 16 July 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

What happens if both end up equal? Do you get your pick?

Yes. It is an unusual situation because grammatically there can only be on 'nearest'. However in the case of a sprinkler head for example, the npr may well be on an arc.

npr on arc.jpg

Edited by Newby, 17 July 2011 - 02:37 AM.


#14 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 02:42 AM

View PostGuia, on 16 July 2011 - 09:31 PM, said:

No you could not, because in order to drop on the other side of the path your back would be to that point.  Your stance and the club you would normally use to make a shot clear of the obstruction determine where the 1 club drop distance takes place.  That means you are facing to your right or an angle to your right, drops are made with your arm extended straight out, not behind you.

You may stand where you like and face any direction when you drop. The only constrain is He must stand erect, hold the ball at shoulder height and arm's length and drop it.

#15 Sawgrass

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:59 AM

View PostGuia, on 16 July 2011 - 09:31 PM, said:

No you could not, because in order to drop on the other side of the path your back would be to that point.  Your stance and the club you would normally use to make a shot clear of the obstruction determine where the 1 club drop distance takes place.  That means you are facing to your right or an angle to your right, drops are made with your arm extended straight out, not behind you.

I posted the rules:  it was very clear, no way you could end up on the other side of the path if you were right or left handed.

Guia, I believe your confusion stems from the fact that the body position restriction you quote applies to determining where the NPR is, but after that does not apply to the one club length drop area.


#16 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 09:49 AM

New diagram


npr 2.jpg


#17 Guia

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

Okay, so I'll accept that you can stand facing the cart path after determining the NPR and you measure 1 driver club length to take your drop.  With your arm extended at the NPR your drop would most likely hit the cart path, is that allowed?  Very unlikely that your reach would extend beyond the path, it would have to be very very narrow.  

I just can't get my head into an artifically covered path that would be narrow enough to allow a legal drop that would not extend beyond your reach.  Even with a driver that is 46 inches that could reach beyond the path the ball hitting the path would probably beyond the 46 inches.  I'm not trying to be stubborn but just can't imagine any way this could happen unless you are allowed to drop the ball on the cart path.  Sorry.

#18 misterlau

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:39 AM

Thanks for the clarification guys, I was pretty sure I understood the rule correctly.
The cart path was a pretty bad example for my case, but I guess the "in theory" was what I was looking for.  The sprinkler head example does a better job of illustrating the ruling I was trying to confirm. I probably should have said "immovable obstruction" since that is what the rule pertains to, instead of being as specific as a cart path.
At least I know I won't forget this one for the near future now.

#19 kevcarter

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 11:45 AM

View PostGuia, on 17 July 2011 - 11:38 AM, said:

Okay, so I'll accept that you can stand facing the cart path after determining the NPR and you measure 1 driver club length to take your drop.  With your arm extended at the NPR your drop would most likely hit the cart path, is that allowed?  Very unlikely that your reach would extend beyond the path, it would have to be very very narrow.  

I just can't get my head into an artifically covered path that would be narrow enough to allow a legal drop that would not extend beyond your reach.  Even with a driver that is 46 inches that could reach beyond the path the ball hitting the path would probably beyond the 46 inches.  I'm not trying to be stubborn but just can't imagine any way this could happen unless you are allowed to drop the ball on the cart path.  Sorry.

My point was:

(almost) never say never.  :lol:

Kevin
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#20 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:47 PM

View PostGuia, on 17 July 2011 - 11:38 AM, said:

Okay, so I'll accept that you can stand facing the cart path after determining the NPR and you measure 1 driver club length to take your drop.  With your arm extended at the NPR your drop would most likely hit the cart path, is that allowed?  Very unlikely that your reach would extend beyond the path, it would have to be very very narrow.  

You don't have to stand on the npr (or on any particular side of the path) to make the drop. You simply stand with your arm outstretched so that your hand is above a place on or inside the 1cl arc/radius taken from the npr. ie the blue line in my last diagram.

You can stand anywhere in the area between the blue and pink lines inthe diagram below.


You can stand anywhere in the pink semi circle (including the blue semi circle), providing your outstretched hand is over the blue area ie within the 1cl radius


arms length.jpg

Edited by Newby, 17 July 2011 - 04:37 PM.


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#21 Guia

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 03:47 PM

Okay, I am officially thick.  Am I correct in that you are standing in the arc of the 1cl, but dropping out side of the 1cl?   Where is the cart path in the diagram.

I have never seen this interpretation before.  I have never observed an official letting a person drop from beyond the 1cl.  Also, the drop area I have observed has been from the stance point of the NPR and the 1cl marked by placing a tee (or what ever) at the beginning and end of the 1cl.  Then the drop within the marked area.

I hate to be stupid after this many years of golf, but I just don't catch :russian_roulette:

Edited by Guia, 17 July 2011 - 04:01 PM.


#22 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:33 PM

I have modified the text associated with the diagram above.


The actual position of the path doesn't really matter to the point I am making. Just that you cannot drop on the path and the ball must not roll or bounce into a position where there is interference from the path. In this case you cannot drop between the green lines but you can stand on the path to drop.

path.jpg

Edited by Newby, 17 July 2011 - 04:51 PM.


#23 Guia

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:44 PM

:yahoo:You have finally reached me.  With the outstreched arm arrows I thought you were dropping outside of the blue area.

#24 Newby

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 04:53 PM

View PostGuia, on 17 July 2011 - 04:44 PM, said:

:yahoo:You have finally reached me.  With the outstreched arm arrows I thought you were dropping outside of the blue area.


Posted Image



#25 Guia

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 05:27 PM

I gave you a +1 for sticking with me.  The cold beer is nice.





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