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High torque vs. low torque shafts


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#1 jumpalot

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:14 PM

I'm embarking on another driver experiment.  My current driver is an 09 burner 10.5* with a Stiff VS Proto shaft. I hit it pretty well, 260-270 yds. with a fade.  Problem is that I hit it pretty low with a TON of roll out.  Usually 30+ yds. worth of roll.  I can't carry some of the sandtraps on my Muni course that are 220-230 yds.  Also, I'd like a higher trajectory to go over some trees on doglegs.  I just picked up an 09 Burner HT and a Superfast HT.  My initial thought was this would get my launch angle up and I would put a shaft in it that would help keep spin down a little.  I thought maybe a Harrison Saga or another VS Proto.  Trying to keep this experiment fairly inexpensive.  I got to thinking (scary) that a higher torque shaft might help with the fade.  I can't find a mid launch shaft with a higher torque to try.  It seems that the higher torque shafts are also higher launching and spinning.  I'm afraid that the increase in loft will already be on the spinny side.
Is there a benefit of playing a higher torque shaft if you struggle to square the clubhead?  Is there a drawback to playing a higher torque shaft at the speed I swing the club?  Thanks in advance for all the help.


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#2 smoky25

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 04:32 PM

This should be interesting.

#3 JCAG

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 06:05 PM

View Postjumpalot, on 04 July 2011 - 04:14 PM, said:

I'm embarking on another driver experiment.  My current driver is an 09 burner 10.5* with a Stiff VS Proto shaft. I hit it pretty well, 260-270 yds. with a fade.  Problem is that I hit it pretty low with a TON of roll out.  Usually 30+ yds. worth of roll.  I can't carry some of the sandtraps on my Muni course that are 220-230 yds.  Also, I'd like a higher trajectory to go over some trees on doglegs.  I just picked up an 09 Burner HT and a Superfast HT.  My initial thought was this would get my launch angle up and I would put a shaft in it that would help keep spin down a little.  I thought maybe a Harrison Saga or another VS Proto.  Trying to keep this experiment fairly inexpensive.  I got to thinking (scary) that a higher torque shaft might help with the fade.  I can't find a mid launch shaft with a higher torque to try.  It seems that the higher torque shafts are also higher launching and spinning.  I'm afraid that the increase in loft will already be on the spinny side.
Is there a benefit of playing a higher torque shaft if you struggle to square the clubhead?  Is there a drawback to playing a higher torque shaft at the speed I swing the club?  Thanks in advance for all the help.


Overall torgue is much, much more of a feel issue then a performance issue. That said:

1. There is no torgue measurement standard.

2. The lower the torque, the harsher the shaft will feel. The higher the torque, the softer the shaft will feel.

3. If the torgue is truly widely apart say 3 to 10* then there could be some square the face up issues.

4. At one time, a major shaft manufacturer had a Low Torque model that actually had higher torgue then the rest of their shaft line.

5. I doubt that a "torque" change alone will have any effect on shaft performance. On feel maybe. On performance, no.

#4 tweaky

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 06:15 PM

your FIRST fitting factor in a driver is head LOFT, followed by shaft FLEX, then LENGTH (which is accompanied by BALANCE).  TORQUE is NOT considered a fitting factor unless the shaft is considerably high (say 4.5* or more) or low (under 2*).  and no there are no "standards" in golf clubs.  if you're hitting low shots consistently with driver then you need more LOFT in the head.  consider having your swing looked at by a PGA pro and your clubs by a certified clubfitter.  
fairways and greens!

#5 storm319

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 09:42 PM

View Posttweaky, on 04 July 2011 - 06:15 PM, said:

your FIRST fitting factor in a driver is head LOFT, followed by shaft FLEX, then LENGTH (which is accompanied by BALANCE).  TORQUE is NOT considered a fitting factor unless the shaft is considerably high (say 4.5* or more) or low (under 2*).  and no there are no "standards" in golf clubs.  if you're hitting low shots consistently with driver then you need more LOFT in the head.  consider having your swing looked at by a PGA pro and your clubs by a certified clubfitter.  
fairways and greens!

Good advice. It will likely be alot cheaper to be professionally fit rather than continuing to buy different clubs and experiment.


#6 Howard Jones

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 10:08 PM

Accufitgolf is right, there is no performanse differences between a low and a high TQ shaft, only feel.
To much roll out, and to flat descent = need for more spin.

40* descent with driver is considered ideal, so if you got some LM numbers you can look at them
1000 rmp = 4* change in descent. More backpin = steeper descent. (250 rmp = 1*)

PGA Average 2004- 2008 with driver

Club speed 112
Ball speed 165
attach -1.3*
Spin 2685 rpm
Launch 11,2*
Apex 31 yards
Descent 39*
Carry 269 yards
Roll out 25 yards
Total 294 yards

Backspin is NOT the enemy of distance, because you always need it in a certain amount, and a good club fitter will help you out here.

#7 pdaero

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 12:09 AM

I agree with Accufit and Howard. Heck, UST even created their VTS shafts (Variable Torque Series) to prove that torque only affects feel and not trajectory.

Generally, most folks with a close-to-average tempo will fit to a shaft that has decent feel, performance, lighter in weight and medium torque (around 3.5-4.5*). This is why most stock shafts fit in this range - most golfers (not necessarily the WRX population) will fit into them.
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#8 Howard Jones

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 01:40 AM

Here is a copy of an old mail iv got from Mitchell Golf Equipment institute about the subj. Torque.

  From Jcastle@fujikura-ca.com

  From the Lab:

  What does that elusive thing in a shaft called "torque" really do? This comes out of the R&D facility of Callaway Golf. (They invested 30 mill USD into it, and have some really neat stuff). Their study (they actually did 2 in 3 years), was to find effects to torque on:

  1. Launch angle.
2. Ball spin.
3. Distance
4 . Dispersion

They made 10 identical clubs with the only variable that changed being the "torque" of the shaft.
The torque ranged from 2 degrees to 26 degrees.

  Their finding was that torque has no, nothing, nada, zip to do with any of the four areas of research.
True. Believe it, we saw the video. The conclusion is: The only thing torque contributes to is the feel of the golf shot. The human golfer cannot swing fast enough to impact the twisting (bending yes) of the shaft during the swing, and the ball is on the club for such a short time (dwell time), it doesn't have the time to be influenced by the shaft twisting at impact.

  Yes the 26 degree torque driver did some violent twisting (almost 360*) after impact, but nothing before. Pretty amazing stuff ;-)

xxx End of story :-)

Edited by Howard Jones, 05 July 2011 - 01:41 AM.


#9 tbomb

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 05:41 AM

But doesn't torque come into affect on Mis-hits? If I hit one off the toe with a high torque shaft it seems to have a big draw or hook, when compared to say a V2....

#10 Howard Jones

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 07:15 AM

View Posttbomb, on 05 July 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:

But doesn't torque come into affect on Mis-hits? If I hit one off the toe with a high torque shaft it seems to have a big draw or hook, when compared to say a V2....

Yes Torque comes in play on toe shots, but still only by feedback of feel. Lower TQ = more "cash" by feedback. (no doubt it was a toe shot)
The reason why a toe shot gives a draw or maybe a hook is called "Gear Effect", and its got nothing to do with shaft twisting or face angles pointing away from target line.
Dwell time or the time the ball and face is in contact is so short, that any head twisting will happen to late to influence on ball flight.

GEAR EFFECT:
All hits on heel side will start to roll out against the toe = fade or slice
all hits on toe side will start to roll in against the heel = draw or hook

Thats why shaft length is so important. Not only do you need sweet spot hits to get maximum ball speed, but also to avoid the gear effect (to long clubs are hit heel side),


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#11 jumpalot

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 09:01 AM

Thanks for the info.  Problem is that nearest clubfitter is over 4 hrs. away.  This experiment won't cost much anyhow.  Now how much will shaft actually affect launch angle?  I think I'll just put an Enzo Zone 7 in it.  But I don't want to cancel out the effects of the higher lofted head.  Maybe I'll start a separate thread.




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