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Some little details required - Nicklaus' bats


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#1 ChristianMc

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 04:16 AM

As some of you may know much of my interest in collecting classic clubs revolves around acquring the models Jack used to win during his long career. Finally I have got hold of a set of 1959-60 SS1 irons (possibily off a member who belongs to this site?) from ebay US. I have a 693 3 wood (yes he used this and not a 945w as often thought), I have a George Low 600 putter, and I have a (centennial) 945w driver. Still need a good set of '67 VIP's but my concentration has been on the early stuff.
The hardest piece to find has been an SS1 driver.
- My question is; did Jack use a velocitised SS1 (1958-59) or did he have a 1960 version which had the capital letter 'MacGregor' stamping on the sole which only appeared that year?
- In addition did he use a DS or 11 iron (SS1) or some other Mac model?
The members of this site have always been gracious with their advice and I look forward to any responses. Indeed, if any one knows Jack's preferred club specs I would really appreciate that info too.
Many thanks,
Christian


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#2 Maxwell

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:42 AM

Christian - Your statement that Jack used a M/T Model 693 #3 wood and not the  model 945 was interesting to read. I my self have been hunting for a older solid red/clay colour insert(1949?) model 945 #3 wood for a little while. Your topic is interesting and have never given Jacks club selection and use much thought. Thanks for sharing - Max

#3 ChristianMc

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:50 AM

Thanks for post. I am not sure exactly what year his 693 Mac TA model came from but it could be early? He writes in his book 'Memories and Memento's from golf's Golden Bear' that his 3 wood had a red fibre insert. He does not say the model and there has been specualtion that he had a red insert in a 945 3 wood. I can't remember where but I did find out on good authority he used a 693 for all those years. Indeed he used a 693 driver briefly during the transition from his SS1 remake (1966) to the 945w (1977) - so during the years 75,76 (if you have not seen the article 'Jack's bats' from golf digest this might interest you).

View PostMaxwell, on 12 June 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

Christian - Your statement that Jack used a M/T Model 693 #3 wood and not the  model 945 was interesting to read. I my self have been hunting for a older solid red/clay colour insert(1949?) model 945 #3 wood for a little while. Your topic is interesting and have never given Jacks club selection and use much thought. Thanks for sharing - Max


#4 teevons

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 11:21 AM

My understanding is he used a TA 945 Model driver,not a SS1 model, He also played Wilson wedges as did a lot of the pros,he also played a Spading Expediter. I saw his clubs used  for the 1986 masters on display and his wedges were Wilson and his driver was a Armour 693 as was his 3 wood,. He played lots of different clubs so to try to match it up perfectly is impossible as he changed out his wedges and drivers . He played his 3 wood religiously and played his irons for long stretches. You might also try contacting Nicklaus website. I have asked several questions about his clubs and they were great about responding.PM me if you need a SS1 as I have several .

View PostChristianMc, on 12 June 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

Thanks for post. I am not sure exactly what year his 693 Mac TA model came from but it could be early? He writes in his book 'Memories and Memento's from golf's Golden Bear' that his 3 wood had a red fibre insert. He does not say the model and there has been specualtion that he had a red insert in a 945 3 wood. I can't remember where but I did find out on good authority he used a 693 for all those years. Indeed he used a 693 driver briefly during the transition from his SS1 remake (1966) to the 945w (1977) - so during the years 75,76 (if you have not seen the article 'Jack's bats' from golf digest this might interest you).

View PostMaxwell, on 12 June 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

Christian - Your statement that Jack used a M/T Model 693 #3 wood and not the  model 945 was interesting to read. I my self have been hunting for a older solid red/clay colour insert(1949?) model 945 #3 wood for a little while. Your topic is interesting and have never given Jacks club selection and use much thought. Thanks for sharing - Max

Edited by teevons, 12 June 2011 - 11:22 AM.


#5 ChristianMc

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 12:52 PM

Hi teevons. Thanks for your knowledge about Jack's wedges. I respect that I will never have an exact bag of his tools but partly it is this fact that keeps my collecting stimulated. The little knowledge I have about his change of drivers over the years comes from the following website which has been mentioned on wrx before:
http://www.golf.com/...1914310,00.html. It shows he bagan with an SS1 driver (stating the 1960 version but I am not 100% sure of this) from 1960-1966. Anyway thanks for your advice about contacting Nicklaus, this I shall do.

View Postteevons, on 12 June 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

My understanding is he used a TA 945 Model driver,not a SS1 model, He also played Wilson wedges as did a lot of the pros,he also played a Spading Expediter. I saw his clubs used  for the 1986 masters on display and his wedges were Wilson and his driver was a Armour 693 as was his 3 wood,. He played lots of different clubs so to try to match it up perfectly is impossible as he changed out his wedges and drivers . He played his 3 wood religiously and played his irons for long stretches. You might also try contacting Nicklaus website. I have asked several questions about his clubs and they were great about responding.PM me if you need a SS1 as I have several .

View PostChristianMc, on 12 June 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

Thanks for post. I am not sure exactly what year his 693 Mac TA model came from but it could be early? He writes in his book 'Memories and Memento's from golf's Golden Bear' that his 3 wood had a red fibre insert. He does not say the model and there has been specualtion that he had a red insert in a 945 3 wood. I can't remember where but I did find out on good authority he used a 693 for all those years. Indeed he used a 693 driver briefly during the transition from his SS1 remake (1966) to the 945w (1977) - so during the years 75,76 (if you have not seen the article 'Jack's bats' from golf digest this might interest you).

View PostMaxwell, on 12 June 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

Christian - Your statement that Jack used a M/T Model 693 #3 wood and not the  model 945 was interesting to read. I my self have been hunting for a older solid red/clay colour insert(1949?) model 945 #3 wood for a little while. Your topic is interesting and have never given Jacks club selection and use much thought. Thanks for sharing - Max


#6 teevons

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 03:48 PM

You are right, I forgot about that SS1,great article and pics of his drivers

View PostChristianMc, on 12 June 2011 - 12:52 PM, said:

Hi teevons. Thanks for your knowledge about Jack's wedges. I respect that I will never have an exact bag of his tools but partly it is this fact that keeps my collecting stimulated. The little knowledge I have about his change of drivers over the years comes from the following website which has been mentioned on wrx before:
http://www.golf.com/...1914310,00.html. It shows he bagan with an SS1 driver (stating the 1960 version but I am not 100% sure of this) from 1960-1966. Anyway thanks for your advice about contacting Nicklaus, this I shall do.

View Postteevons, on 12 June 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

My understanding is he used a TA 945 Model driver,not a SS1 model, He also played Wilson wedges as did a lot of the pros,he also played a Spading Expediter. I saw his clubs used  for the 1986 masters on display and his wedges were Wilson and his driver was a Armour 693 as was his 3 wood,. He played lots of different clubs so to try to match it up perfectly is impossible as he changed out his wedges and drivers . He played his 3 wood religiously and played his irons for long stretches. You might also try contacting Nicklaus website. I have asked several questions about his clubs and they were great about responding.PM me if you need a SS1 as I have several .

View PostChristianMc, on 12 June 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

Thanks for post. I am not sure exactly what year his 693 Mac TA model came from but it could be early? He writes in his book 'Memories and Memento's from golf's Golden Bear' that his 3 wood had a red fibre insert. He does not say the model and there has been specualtion that he had a red insert in a 945 3 wood. I can't remember where but I did find out on good authority he used a 693 for all those years. Indeed he used a 693 driver briefly during the transition from his SS1 remake (1966) to the 945w (1977) - so during the years 75,76 (if you have not seen the article 'Jack's bats' from golf digest this might interest you).

View PostMaxwell, on 12 June 2011 - 05:42 AM, said:

Christian - Your statement that Jack used a M/T Model 693 #3 wood and not the  model 945 was interesting to read. I my self have been hunting for a older solid red/clay colour insert(1949?) model 945 #3 wood for a little while. Your topic is interesting and have never given Jacks club selection and use much thought. Thanks for sharing - Max


#7 astamm8

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 01:27 AM

The thing is, Jack's SS1 from that photo spread looks nothing like any other SS1 that I've seen, so I don't know what to suggest. Maybe get a 693 or 945 and shoot for later Jack.

I saw those SS1 irons on eBay, they were stunning, and at a good price. I couldn't believe how great of shape they were in with complete ferrules. Great find.

#8 bigeasybri

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:51 AM

View Postastamm8, on 13 June 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

The thing is, Jack's SS1 from that photo spread looks nothing like any other SS1 that I've seen, so I don't know what to suggest. Maybe get a 693 or 945 and shoot for later Jack.

Just a guess here, but I think his SS1 driver looks different because of replaced inserts.  I just happened to run across this photo yesterday, perhaps it helps this debate (purports to be from 1960):  

1960_nicklausdriver.jpg

That looks exactly like the SS1W Velocitized Driver I have.

On a side note... check out the size of that glove!!  Looks like he just came in from gardening, not playing golf.  Can anyone imagine playing with something that big?

Edited by bigeasybri, 13 June 2011 - 11:04 AM.


#9 teevons

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 10:54 AM

He broke his inserts constantly, so the SS!  he played could have had a red fiber put in for replacement??

View Postbigeasybri, on 13 June 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

View Postastamm8, on 13 June 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

The thing is, Jack's SS1 from that photo spread looks nothing like any other SS1 that I've seen, so I don't know what to suggest. Maybe get a 693 or 945 and shoot for later Jack.

Just a guess here, but I think his SS1 driver looks different because of replaced inserts.  I just happened to run across this photo yesterday, perhaps it helps this debate (purports to be from 1960):  

1960_nicklausdriver.jpg

That looks exactly like the SS1W Driver I have.


#10 ChristianMc

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:03 PM

Teevons suggested in one of his posts that I contact Nicklaus.com regarding my questions. Thanks again to him and that advice. This is what the curator of the Nicklaus museum sent regarding Jacks wedges over the 'winning' years,


Pitching Wedges                                                                                             Used

1959 MacGregor Toney Penna TP1                                                                  1959-61

1965 MacGregor Expediter                                                                              1965

1967 MacGregor VIP                                                                                       1967-1975

1976 MacGregor VIP                                                                                       1976

1977 MacGregor VIP                                                                                       1977

1978 MacGregor VIP                                                                                       1978-1979

1980 MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Limited Edition Prototype                                     1980-81

1982 MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Muirfield                                                            1982

1984 MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Muirfield                                                           1984-85

1986 MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Limited Edition JNP                                              1986

Sand Wedges

1960 MacGregor Tommy Armour SS1 CF4000 (11 iron)                               1960-63

MacGregor Jack Nicklaus JNW                                                                    1964-66

1956 Wilson Staff Model                                                                            1970-74

Wilson R-90  (circa 1935)                                                                          1974-75

1980 MacGregor Jack Nicklaus Limited Edition Prototype                                 1980



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#11 freddiec

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:15 PM

I've got a SS1W Tommy Armour Velocitized driver looks like that as well. Same face shape too.   Christian, Dave Wood told me once that Jack's swing weight was fairly light to average, but his clubs overall weight was very heavy.

#12 astamm8

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 03:41 PM

View Postbigeasybri, on 13 June 2011 - 10:51 AM, said:

View Postastamm8, on 13 June 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

The thing is, Jack's SS1 from that photo spread looks nothing like any other SS1 that I've seen, so I don't know what to suggest. Maybe get a 693 or 945 and shoot for later Jack.

Just a guess here, but I think his SS1 driver looks different because of replaced inserts.  I just happened to run across this photo yesterday, perhaps it helps this debate (purports to be from 1960):  

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. I picked up a wedge that I'm pretty confidant was either made for Jack or was made to be exactly like his wedge. It's fantastic. I'll try to get pics up soon.

As far as the driver theory, I like it. I would surprise me if Jack did keep using a driver from 1960. Problems are that the sole plate is different font/stamping wise than I think would have come on an SS1. And his '63 club has full face scoring lines, while the photo from '60 (and stock SS1s) have the spaced scoring lines that started with the EOMs.

I've always assumed that the SS1 was a model 69 head, but I've never seen it described as such in Mac promotional literature. That's strange as the M43, M85, PT1, etc. are all explictly labeled as model 69s (for the drivers anyway). Does anyone know for sure?

#13 Texsport

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:59 AM

View Postfreddiec, on 16 June 2011 - 08:15 PM, said:

I've got a SS1W Tommy Armour Velocitized driver looks like that as well. Same face shape too.   Christian, Dave Wood told me once that Jack's swing weight was fairly light to average, but his clubs overall weight was very heavy.

I spoke to Jack Wulkotte, Jack's personal wood guy.

Jack had lead tape under his grips, theoretically to slow hand action---to hit a fade. That accounts for the lower than expected swingweight but heavy total weight.

I believe that Jack also used a S shaft in his driver.

I have a club that was probably a club Jack gave to someone, or a golf course at an opening. It has his name engraved into the sole plate. It has the leather grip with gold pin stripe band, and an S shaft.

Dave Wood looked at it and wrote me a letter describing the model and likely year of production.

More here:
http://www.golfdiges...-equipment-0607


Texsport

Edited by Texsport, 22 February 2013 - 08:07 AM.


#14 freddiec

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:02 AM

Texsport, would you be able to take some pics of your "Jack" driver and post them?  I think we would all love to see that one !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by freddiec, 22 February 2013 - 09:57 AM.


#15 NRJyzr

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostTexsport, on 22 February 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I believe that Jack also used a S shaft in his driver.

The thing to remember when looking at flex back in the day, the Stiff flex of 40 years ago was stiffer than the Stiff flex of today.  

Goes along with the great shaft softening of the mid to late 90s.  :)

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#16 Texsport

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:23 AM



View PostNRJyzr, on 22 February 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

View PostTexsport, on 22 February 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I believe that Jack also used a S shaft in his driver.

The thing to remember when looking at flex back in the day, the Stiff flex of 40 years ago was stiffer than the Stiff flex of today.  

Goes along with the great shaft softening of the mid to late 90s.  :)

Thanks, I lived it.

Used to play a DG X-300 in my MacGregor Tommy Armour 693, 945, and SS-1 Velocitized drivers and fairway woods.

I wish I could still swing 'em.



Texsport

Edited by Texsport, 22 February 2013 - 10:29 AM.


#17 majic

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:23 PM

Texsport in my opinion when you butt weight the shaft you take its stiffness up a notch.  Probably why you see an "S" shaft in the club.  Tad

#18 Texsport

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:29 AM

View Postmajic, on 22 February 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Texsport in my opinion when you butt weight the shaft you take its stiffness up a notch.  Probably why you see an "S" shaft in the club.  Tad

This tread is getting better all the time!

Now the experts are involved.

Thank you sir!

Texsport

#19 xgolfx

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostTexsport, on 23 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

View Postmajic, on 22 February 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Texsport in my opinion when you butt weight the shaft you take its stiffness up a notch.  Probably why you see an "S" shaft in the club.  Tad

This tread is getting better all the time!

Now the experts are involved.

Thank you sir!

Texsport

I not only agree with Tad, but also feel that the club is moved much slower, especially in the hands of a great player. Also, steel ( vs. graphite) with a leather Lamkin grip,(which Jack used for most of his career) would create a difference.

CHARLEY PENNA

#20 NRJyzr

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

View PostTexsport, on 22 February 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Thanks, I lived it.

Used to play a DG X-300 in my MacGregor Tommy Armour 693, 945, and SS-1 Velocitized drivers and fairway woods.

I wish I could still swing 'em.



Texsport

I figured you knew that, and probably most reading this do, as well.  But you never know when a youngun unaware of this might pass by the thread...  ;)

Edited by NRJyzr, 23 February 2013 - 11:15 PM.

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#21 BrianL99

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

I actually held Jack's 945 Driver, at the U.S. Open at Winged Foot, in 1984.  His son (I think it was Gary if I remember correctly), showed it to me and told me it had been epoxied back together 3 times.   If I recall correctly, it had a Newman Wrap grip, was fairly heavy and was counter-balanced.  I'm fairly certain I have a photo of his bag at the time ... I'll see if I can find it.

#22 Texsport

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:58 PM

View Postxgolfx, on 23 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

View PostTexsport, on 23 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

View Postmajic, on 22 February 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Texsport in my opinion when you butt weight the shaft you take its stiffness up a notch.  Probably why you see an "S" shaft in the club.  Tad

This tread is getting better all the time!

Now the experts are involved.

Thank you sir!

Texsport

I not only agree with Tad, but also feel that the club is moved much slower, especially in the hands of a great player. Also, steel ( vs. graphite) with a leather Lamkin grip,(which Jack used for most of his career) would create a difference.

CHARLEY PENNA

Do you mean that the grip is moving slower--hence the reason for the weighted grip? To slow down hand action?

Texsport

#23 xgolfx

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:11 PM

According to Wullkotte, jack always  used  Lamkin leather grips. This comes from his letter to Golf World correcting their error  stating  that he used  Neumann grips. Also,  you are correct in your slow hand action.

CHARLEY PENNA

#24 freddiec

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

Jack's 945 must have been a very heavy block (considering the specs of the club) i.e around a D4 SW, even after having lead tape under the grip and the club only being 43 inches long.  Must have been a pretty heavy block to begin with.

#25 Texsport

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:03 AM

View Postxgolfx, on 24 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

According to Wullkotte, jack always  used  Lamkin leather grips. This comes from his letter to Golf World correcting their error  stating  that he used  Neumann grips. Also,  you are correct in your slow hand action.

CHARLEY PENNA


Jack used the black leather Lamkin with a thin gold bead. Mr. Wulkotte told me that he collected all of the remaining stock for Jack, when they were discontinued.

Texsport

Edited by Texsport, 26 February 2013 - 10:03 AM.





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