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shoulder turn on a one plane golf swing


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#1 jacksonlui

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 02:27 PM

I'm reading Hardy's book and he mentions that for a one planer, if you have a shaft across your shoulders, it should point within 4ft from outside of ball on backswing.  Many would feel that this is very steep and the left shoulder drops instead of being level.

How much merit is there on this position ?  I've read in many areas that avocate never to dip the left shoulder.

Jack


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#2 taylormadefan

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 02:38 PM

View Postjacksonlui, on Aug 17 2006, 02:27 PM, said:

I'm reading Hardy's book and he mentions that for a one planer, if you have a shaft across your shoulders, it should point within 4ft from outside of ball on backswing.  Many would feel that this is very steep and the left shoulder drops instead of being level.

How much merit is there on this position ?  I've read in many areas that avocate never to dip the left shoulder.

Jack

Lots of merit.  You're not dipping the left shoulder, you're turning it around your spine.  In fact, you've proven his point about mixing one and two plane information perfectly.   :help:

The Hardy one plane MO is "steep with the body, shallow with the club."

The 2 plane MO is "shallow with the body, steep with the club."

#3 littlepoison

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 06:58 PM

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :help:

#4 taylormadefan

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 10:54 PM

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 06:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :help:

Join the club!  

My favorite drill for this is sticking a glove under you left armpit for a driving range session, it's guaranteed to cure your connection faults.  Keep it there until well after impact and you'll really feel what it's like to keep that left arm against your pec through impact.

#5 Gallery_Tungsten33_*

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 06:22 AM

View Posttaylormadefan, on Aug 18 2006, 10:54 PM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 06:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :help:

Join the club!  

My favorite drill for this is sticking a glove under you left armpit for a driving range session, it's guaranteed to cure your connection faults.  Keep it there until well after impact and you'll really feel what it's like to keep that left arm against your pec through impact.


Right on or you can use head cover as well.

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#6 littlepoison

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 04:58 PM

View Posttaylormadefan, on Aug 18 2006, 11:54 PM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 06:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :wave:

Join the club!  

My favorite drill for this is sticking a glove under you left armpit for a driving range session, it's guaranteed to cure your connection faults.  Keep it there until well after impact and you'll really feel what it's like to keep that left arm against your pec through impact.

Yup, next range session I have, I will be taking my old, smelly and worn-out gloves and dedicating them to that specific purpose... funny thing is, last round I played, I hit the driver and the long irons very well, and all good swings game with the feeling of having that biceps-glued-to-chest feeling... it works, so I should definately make the commitment to ingrain it :help:

#7 Gallery_Sneaky Long_*

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:47 PM

View PostGehenHerzog, on Aug 18 2006, 09:19 PM, said:

WOW, I can't believe anyone would listen to this "one plane" "two plane" nonsense.  That is the biggest croc of $hit I have ever heard.  

Y'all are just confusing yourselves

Yeah!  You .. I mean Y'all are just confusing yourselves.  In fact other nonsense you should stop spending time on is thoughts such as alignment, club head speed, loft/ lie, etc...  All of these so called "facts" are just a conspiracy from the Golf Channel to burrow into your brains and make you buy stuff.  Hardy should be put in jail!

Anyway.  I used the thoughts for one plane v. two plane school of thought to make some changes last year.  While now knowing much about both, I cannot say I subscribe to being one or the other; but I do think what I learned from tinkering with each has really helped my understand of the swing.

Hardy's book is decent but another great reference is a guy I know named Chuck Quinton.  He was one of the first to really write about the one plane school on this website:

http://www.mountainw...planegolfswing/

and

http://www.mountainw...s_not_work.html

I've played some events with him and picked his brain.  Some thought provoking stuff no doubt.

If you like thoughts that is...

M2C,
BJ

#8 WHK

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 08:17 PM

I've recently made the switch from a two plane to a one plane.  There are a few things I try to be mindful of:

1) Steepness with my shoulders SHOULD NOT translate into steepness with the lower body.  The hip turn needs to be level while the shoulders point down at the ball.

2) Consequently, if my feet shift or slip on the down swing (too fast), I can't rotate my hips on a level plane.  It gets steep and I end up flipping at the ball.

I used to think that the shoulders should remain closed or parallel to the target while the hips are completely open.  This seems not to be the case with the one plane.  My shoulders open up at impact, yet I'm able to attack the ball from the inside.  Am I seeing this correctly?

Sorry for the lack of organization.  I've never had a teacher (some group lessons) but I've taken my index down to a 1.  I appreciate any feedback.

#9 swanry30

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 08:47 PM

I checked out Chuck Quinton's web site... Nice!  Thank you for the link.
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#10 Gallery_Tungsten33_*

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 09:11 PM

View Postswanry30, on Aug 23 2006, 08:47 PM, said:

I checked out Chuck Quinton's web site... Nice!  Thank you for the link.


He stole Hardy's stuff...

I'd go with Hardy, not Chuck...


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#11 sbark

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 10:52 PM

Quinton pushes "passive arms" , while Jim encourages right side ala Ben Hogan late in the swing.....really was the diff. for me...................wish i had 3 right hands.....

just all comes together better with the "baseball overhand throw down the right hip pocket and being agressive.

this stuff works, even for this 48 yr old,  get the Hardy dvd just out, take notes and go with it

#12 benditty

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:20 AM

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :cheesy:

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

#13 taylormadefan

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:10 AM

View Postsbark, on Aug 23 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

Quinton pushes "passive arms" , while Jim encourages right side ala Ben Hogan late in the swing.....really was the diff. for me...................wish i had 3 right hands.....

just all comes together better with the "baseball overhand throw down the right hip pocket and being agressive.

this stuff works, even for this 48 yr old,  get the Hardy dvd just out, take notes and go with it

Hold on, Hardy's not exactly active arms.  If you do have active arms, you will get a big hook, trust me.  My biggest fault is getting my arms/ right bicept way ahead of my chest and hips and the result is a HUGE hook.

#14 taylormadefan

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:20 AM

View Postbenditty, on Aug 24 2006, 01:20 AM, said:

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

The key is the right elbow, forearm, and bicep.  All three should remain behind while the right side releases.  

It's hard to describe over the internet, but the feeling should be more of a "right palm down" sensation akin to a discus thrower if you will.  The left hip and shoulder should clear through while the right arm remains behind and "throws down" into the right poccket.  The result is a feeling of "alligator" or short arming the follow through instead of the classic "extenstion."  

This probably makes zero sense to non Hardy students, but if you've got the one plane swing down, what I said above shoudl be the gospel.   :cheesy:

#15 jacksonlui

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:11 AM

not to digress from my own topic...
after reading Hardy's book, I'm having a hard time getting my shoulders pointing within 4' outside the ball.  I can do this with a club across my chest, but can't while actually hitting the ball, eventhough I feel like it.  I see that my shoulders are fairly flat inthe video camera.  Any suggestions?

thanks
Jack


#16 taylormadefan

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 12:23 PM

View Postjacksonlui, on Aug 24 2006, 04:11 AM, said:

not to digress from my own topic...
after reading Hardy's book, I'm having a hard time getting my shoulders pointing within 4' outside the ball.  I can do this with a club across my chest, but can't while actually hitting the ball, eventhough I feel like it.  I see that my shoulders are fairly flat inthe video camera.  Any suggestions?

thanks
Jack

The swing thought that I have to keep me from getting too flat in the backswing trying to get my left shoulder pointed right at the ball at the top of the backswing.  Increasing your spine angle (getting closer to the ball) also helps with this.  

The biggest faults which will prevent you from doing this is a lateral shift of your weight on the backswing onto your right leg.  You really want to keep your weight fairly centered between your legs on the backswing.  

Hope that helps.

#17 littlepoison

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

View Postbenditty, on Aug 24 2006, 02:20 AM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :cheesy:

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

My interpretation of what Hardy means by "passive arms," and I should point out that I think he means "less active forced rotation" when he says "passive," is that because the one plane downswing requires such an aggressive turning through of the torso, that the arms are best, with the left biceps against the chest, such that the turning of the torso essentially "slings" the left arm, and consequently, the right arm as well, into, and through impact... so the left biceps basically connects to the chest on the backswing, and stays there into the downswing and follow-through as a result of the torso turning aggressively into impact.

Any explanation that TMfan could give you would more likely be much more detailed and accurate, as he's been a student of the one plane method, and more specifically, of the Hardy method therein, for much longer than I.

#18 Gallery_Tungsten33_*

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:20 PM

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 24 2006, 01:07 PM, said:

View Postbenditty, on Aug 24 2006, 02:20 AM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  :cheesy:

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

My interpretation of what Hardy means by "passive arms," and I should point out that I think he means "less active forced rotation" when he says "passive," is that because the one plane downswing requires such an aggressive turning through of the torso, that the arms are best, with the left biceps against the chest, such that the turning of the torso essentially "slings" the left arm, and consequently, the right arm as well, into, and through impact... so the left biceps basically connects to the chest on the backswing, and stays there into the downswing and follow-through as a result of the torso turning aggressively into impact.

Any explanation that TMfan could give you would more likely be much more detailed and accurate, as he's been a student of the one plane method, and more specifically, of the Hardy method therein, for much longer than I.


To me, it's keeping HANDS passive, not arms. Much like throwing sidearm or discus which I competed in high school so it was easy for me to figure out how to swing...

#19 jeffy

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:37 PM

View Postjacksonlui, on Aug 24 2006, 05:11 AM, said:

not to digress from my own topic...
after reading Hardy's book, I'm having a hard time getting my shoulders pointing within 4' outside the ball.  I can do this with a club across my chest, but can't while actually hitting the ball, eventhough I feel like it.  I see that my shoulders are fairly flat inthe video camera.  Any suggestions?

thanks
Jack

I have the same problem. I think it stems from the body's instinct to cheat and avoid anything physically challenging. I agree with the thought to try to direct the left shoulder at the ball. Anything to get your torso to TURN around the spine and not sway or lift. I find it very important to KEEP THE SPINE STILL: do not sway and do not raise up (my body like to do both, my shoulder plane flattens and I lose coil). Doing this you'll probably feel like you turn much less and have a much tighter coil. Combine this with the over-hand throwing release of the right arm, and you'll love the power you generate.

If you're serious about the one-plane swing, buy Hardy's dvd set; it is far better than the book in expressing the concepts, provides more detail and has some very helpful drills. The "brute" drill, where you practice your torso rotation in the upper part of a cut off RubberMade "Brute" container, is very, very helpful on this topic.

#20 jeffy

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:45 PM

On passive arms and Hardy, what Hardy actually says is that the arm release in the one-plane swing is "relatively passive". Relative to what? To the very active karate-chop pulling action he advocates in the two-plane swing. In the one-plane swing, Hardy wants the left arm to stay tight to the chest and the right elbow up and back in the first part of the downswing swing. That is the "relatively passive" part. BUT, he wants to actively, and powerfully, swing the right forearm in in an over-hand throwing motion down and around the body throughout the downswing. This approach is the complete opposite of the "right elbow in front of the right hip" position that is a staple of conventional instruction. That position is good for a two-plane swing, but will get you "stuck" in a one-plane swing.


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#21 jeffy

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Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:19 PM

View PostSneaky Long, on Aug 23 2006, 07:47 PM, said:

[
Anyway.  I used the thoughts for one plane v. two plane school of thought to make some changes last year.  While now knowing much about both, I cannot say I subscribe to being one or the other; but I do think what I learned from tinkering with each has really helped my understand of the swing.

Hardy's book is decent but another great reference is a guy I know named Chuck Quinton.  He was one of the first to really write about the one plane school on this website:



In my view Quinton is a sleazy opportunist who snatched up the "oneplanegolfswing.com" url (after seeing Hardy on the Golf Channel) and then built an alleged "one-plane" site around it. He has never worked with Hardy nor even spoken to him (at least that is what he has told me) even though Hardy offered to work with him for free (again, according to Quinton). Quinton "wrote" about the one-plane swing based on the Golf Channel segment and what his friend Adrian Wadey picked up when he was allowed to sit-in on a lesson given by Hardy to Tom Pernice. The Hardy camp is none too pleased with this clown.

The reality is that he is just another thirty-year old teaching pro that couldn't make a living playing golf. What he teaches, by his own admission, is quite different from Hardy and more closely resembles John Redman's "turn-turn-with-passive-arms" (you may remember John from his 15 minutes of fame when his student Paul Azinger was number 1). It features some two-plane elements, so my guess is that synching the arms and the body is important: hence the need for "passive" arms (in my view, active but "synched" arms will feel "passive"). Hardy's one-plane swing, in contrast, features a very rapid whipping of the arms around the body.

Predictably, since he had so little to go on, he misrepresented a bunch of Hardy's stuff on his site. The most egregious error was when he claimed that Hardy, in his book, advocated an impact position that featured a cupped left wrist. He described how such a foolish misconception "happens" in a one-plane swing as follows:

"By keeping the arms more into the body rather than driving them out and releasing away, the left hand can stay slightly cupped, that is the nature of keeping the right elbow behind the hip and the left arm into the chest. You can lean the shaft forward at impact and still have a cupping in the wrist."

I quizzed Hardy about this on his site and, needless to say, the correct one-plane swing will a create a slight bowing or arching of the left wrist at impact.

Of course, Chuck has responded to posts like this by calling me a liar ("I never said Hardy advocated a cupped left wrist, once again, you are lying and misrepresenting") and threatening litigation (seriously). The guy's a joke.

Edited by jeffy, 24 August 2006 - 04:21 PM.


#22 littlepoison

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:40 AM

View PostTungsten33, on Aug 24 2006, 03:20 PM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 24 2006, 01:07 PM, said:

View Postbenditty, on Aug 24 2006, 02:20 AM, said:

View Postlittlepoison, on Aug 18 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

I've been making the transition to a one plane motion and TMfan summed it up as well as anyone could... it feels FUNKY but once you begin to get more comfortable with the motion (for me, this required DOUBLING my ab workout routine) and get used to the "passive arms" and left biceps-to-chest, you WILL see a big change...

...biggest thing I'm struggling with now is definately the left biceps-to-chest... it's REALLY hard for me to trust that, and as a result, the seperation has me fighting a bit of steepness that is definately NOT there when I do the move correctly...  ;)

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

My interpretation of what Hardy means by "passive arms," and I should point out that I think he means "less active forced rotation" when he says "passive," is that because the one plane downswing requires such an aggressive turning through of the torso, that the arms are best, with the left biceps against the chest, such that the turning of the torso essentially "slings" the left arm, and consequently, the right arm as well, into, and through impact... so the left biceps basically connects to the chest on the backswing, and stays there into the downswing and follow-through as a result of the torso turning aggressively into impact.

Any explanation that TMfan could give you would more likely be much more detailed and accurate, as he's been a student of the one plane method, and more specifically, of the Hardy method therein, for much longer than I.


To me, it's keeping HANDS passive, not arms. Much like throwing sidearm or discus which I competed in high school so it was easy for me to figure out how to swing...

I think you hit the nail on the head right here... the arms by the nature of the action will rotate and thus square the clubface, requiring much less action by the hands...

you know, if I just could write for an hour, I'm sure I could say the same thing that most people can say in the span of two minutes :cheesy:  :fool:

#23 Hoover98

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Posted 30 August 2006 - 12:59 AM

View Posttaylormadefan, on Aug 24 2006, 02:20 AM, said:

View Postbenditty, on Aug 24 2006, 01:20 AM, said:

Mind if I ask what you mean by "passive arms" and "biceps-to-chest"?  Do you simply mean that the left bicep should stay pressed against the side of the chest throughout the back swing as it is at address, or should it more more in front of the chest?  Thanks.

The key is the right elbow, forearm, and bicep.  All three should remain behind while the right side releases.  

It's hard to describe over the internet, but the feeling should be more of a "right palm down" sensation akin to a discus thrower if you will.  The left hip and shoulder should clear through while the right arm remains behind and "throws down" into the right poccket.  The result is a feeling of "alligator" or short arming the follow through instead of the classic "extenstion."  

This probably makes zero sense to non Hardy students, but if you've got the one plane swing down, what I said above shoudl be the gospel.   :idhitit:

The image I still like to use is act like the clubhead is not attached to the shaft and you are trying to sling it off the shaft into the ground just in front of the ball.  This helps to keep from getting too wristy on the downswing and gets you to use the "big muscles" to turn.  Otherwise, the clubhead will "fly off" well before that point.

Another good image is to act like you are swinging in neck-deep water.  It would be nearly impossible to do it with your arms and wrists only.  You would HAVE to turn your body with the arms connected in order to stay in balance and generate any force.
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#24 Furrankee

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 06:00 AM

Has anyone of you subscribe to his "www.oneplanegolfswing.com" site and viewed his tips and videos?

#25 taylormadefan

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Posted 14 December 2006 - 04:40 PM

View Postfurrankee, on Dec 14 2006, 05:00 AM, said:

Has anyone of you subscribe to his "www.oneplanegolfswing.com" site and viewed his tips and videos?

That would be the aforementioned Chuck Quinton's site.  

Take what you will from it, but it isn't Mr. Hardy's views at all.





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