Pepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:
OneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:
Pepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:
OneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:
Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.
In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.
I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.
Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.
Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.
I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.
I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.
I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.
A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.
Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or... on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag. Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club. At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard. If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.
Slow play in almost all cases has to do with course design....... like I said, where you have a course that has 2 par 5's on same side where most golfers are going to try and get home in two is bad course design..... OB within the course is bad design, has nothing to do with what or how your wife hits a golf ball.... these are just a few examples of what starts/adds too/creates slow play. Or I suppose you don't think a course that has a par 5 that most golfers tend to go for it in two, followed up on the next hole by a very long par 3 with a long carry over a hazard and surrounded by deep bunkers everywhere doesn't add to slow play either
.... bad course designs add to slow play, course management is just another element that can also lead to slow play.......
And seeing how you mentioned GPS units- I love em and use them, but I am seeing more and more people use them and instead of it speeding up their play, they seem to cause them to slow down play.....they tend to look at their GPS units, then start walking all over the course to see a marked sprinkler head to check the yardage of their unit..... then go back to cart and get a club..... but some would say that they are exercising good course management to get the very best yardage available to them
- I call it slow play period.
I have seen plenty of par 4 holes that force almost ALL golfers to layup..... I guess you think on a course like that most golfers should go from playing 6300 yards to the 5200 yard tee marker so that they can clear the hazard!
Yes I see where you and your wife have excellent course management skills- but really, I'd expect nothing less from you when it comes to any kind of management skills- however, when you talk about the vast majority of amateur golfers- there is a reason the majority can't break 90- so course design plays a huge part into slow play- I wish we could put more faith into the average golfer that they will always pick the right club, and hit it correctly everytime-especially when you place hazards or anything else in their sight that might cause them to tighten up and impede course management skills.
My intent is NOT to argue... Due to business I travel extensively at times...MI, TX, AZ & CA are the most common, but NY and DC sneak in now and again. I never go anywhere without my clubs either.
First off, I seldom see golfers going for Par 5's in two, and I play 2-3 times per week, every week. I seldom see a course jump from 6300 to 5200; so I can't image where your playing.
You can blame course design, but for the most part research has shown that's not the cause. Having been on the board of two clubs where we've commissioned reports for all types of issues; design has been a factor, but not high on the list. One factor that influences slow play are untrained cart girls stopping in the wrong spots, and guys constantly drinking while playing. Another factor is water carry shots on the first or tenth tee, and golfers stopping to order lunch at the turn, instead of being able to order from a call box on the 9th tee.
There are other influences, but I have an 2 fingers of single malt on the mind, so I am outa here. Have a good one.
Pepper...... come on you really didn't just tell me that you play all over the globe and "seldom" see a course yardage jump from 6300 down to 5200 yards
you should really look at the score cards more often. I won't bother listing any of the common man courses that you don't play..... so I'll list some of the courses that a man of your stature might frequent and give you some of the course yardages
Here are just a few courses in CA that vary in yardages
Aviara 7007 yards down to 5007 yards
Westin Mission Hills- 6700 down to 4800
Torrey Pines South- 7600 yards down to 5500
Pebble Beach 6700 yards down to 5200
some notable NY course you may have heard of
Shinnecock Hills - 6800 down to 5300
Fishers Island Club- 6600 down to 5300
Michigan courses that are popular
Bay Harbor- from 7000 yards down to 4100
Arcadia Bluffs from 7300 down to 5200
Tulleymore 7200 down to 4700
Now I play on average of at least 3 times per week myself, and have been lucky enough to play some courses in various states..... and I quite regularly see yardages vary from the different tee markers.
I'm sure all the studies you've been involved with on golf courses has told you what all the problems of slow play are.... and why does it not surprise me that course design is low on that list of studies..... If I didn't know better, I swear you work for government with your studies that tell you everything but what the real problems are..... heck with all your vast knowledge and course experience, you should have saved them the time and money on them studies and just told them like you tell everyone here what all the problems are ..... and how to correct them...... no argument from me- you have all the answers all the time