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Least favorite design feature on a golf hole.


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#61 xXsnowXx

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:01 AM

Good topic.

-Severely sloped greens in combination with a pin position that gives you NO CHANCE of keeping it on the green if you are above the hole.  Should I have kept it below the hole?  Yes, but sometimes playing for the middle of the green is the only/best/safe choice.  I don't expect to be able to lag it to one foot, but I'd like to at least have a chance at a two putt.

-I hate when you can describe a course as favoring "slicers or faders" or vice versa.  Basically there is a nice course that I play a few times a year that you can pretty much miss right all day long and be in play.  Miss left and you are O.B. most of the time.  Mix it up.

-Someone mentioned when a range is running next to a hole.  I hate this.  Looking through range balls on the first fairway trying to find my tee shot is not how I want to start my round.  On a similar note, I don't like when the 1st tee is too near the clubhouse/practice green/anywhere with a lot of commotion.  On the flip side, finishing on 18 with a gallery of (hopefully well mannered) spectators is pretty fun.

-This is more of a "favorite design feature" and I am aware not all courses can do it, but I love when you can't see any other holes when on your current hole.  I fell in love with this idea playing Flint Hills National, Fazio designed.  Another great feature there is being no cart paths are visible from the tee.  Love it.

-Tee boxes that are too close to the previous green.  Obviously being too far sucks too, but I don't like having to watch for errant approach shots when I'm teeing off.  

-Small tee boxes, particularly on par 3's/short par 4's that have a lot of divots.

-On course out of bounds always drives me nuts too, but if it is for good reason I can deal with it.


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#62 tElihu

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:02 AM

I agree with on course out of bounds. IMO, if you designed a course where you had to make out of bounds inside the course, you should have re-routed your design.

Blind par 3s.  Blind tee shots don't bother me (so long as the shot is relatively straight-away) but when you have to judge distance precisely, you should be able to see the target.

And teeing off on a hole with something less than a 3 iron.  There's pretty much no strategy (and little challenge) to hitting a fairway with a 5 iron or less off the tee.

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#63 jho786

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:44 AM

I really don't like par 3's that are tree lined to the point where they take a shot shape out of the question.  A muni that I used to play a lot and a 170 yard par 3 with a green slanted from 5oclock-11 with a bunker short and left had large trees lining the tee box and ahead to maybe 30-40 yards.  They loved placing the pin on the left side behind the bunker, calling for a draw but you could never hit a high draw because of the trees, it pissed me off everytime!!

I also hate par 5's that take driver out of your hands.  I used to belong to a club where a re-design was recently done and I think today's equipment is too much for the design.  2/4 par 5's had this situation.  1 had a deep bunker on the right of the fairway and the other had a waste bunker and thick trees on the left, both only 260 yards from the back tees.  I always had to lay up with a 3 wood because of this and it peeved me everytime!!
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#64 ben w

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:17 AM

not really a design feature, but I can't stand courses that don't let you walk. they say it slows down play, but I've never held a group up walking before.
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#65 tElihu

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:11 PM

View Postben w, on 26 April 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

not really a design feature, but I can't stand courses that don't let you walk. they say it slows down play, but I've never held a group up walking before.


Actually the design IS one of the excuses given for disallowing walkers ("There's too much room between holes to allow walking.").  Even so, I've never played a course that wasn't walkable. Even the ones that pushed that excuse.


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#66 DavePelz4

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 12:19 PM

Not a fan of courses where every par 5 is the exact same direction and the wind plays the same.  At least make half of them down wind, cross wind, etc.

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#67 Pepperturbo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:01 PM

I take a golf course as it comes at me, much like they guys did in the old days.  If I have a complaint it's excessively fluffy unconditioned bunkers.  As for the OP's forced layups on Par 4's, seems that's solved by moving up a tee or two so it can be cleared; is that not true?  I also encounter par 5's that require something other then a driver off the tee for placement; and read that as challenging my club selection and execution.

Also, I agree with @Jaskanski when he says "a course that forces the golfer to think and use a club that may be out  of his/her comfort zone on a particular hole is good architecture".  Its for that reason we golfers should not have favorite clubs, with others collecting dust.  That also suggests that golfer is not developing his game overall or benefiting from having 14 clubs; or acknowledging course management skills are for all courses... not just those that allow the use of his favorite clubs.  

As for those claiming, but "I am an short hitter"; there's nothing wrong with that except if its suggested "all" courses should some how accommodate through design... There's a reason for many different types and lengths of courses.  Furthermore, when we can no longer carry certain distances, and moving up tee's doesn't help, that's when we go to a shorter, less difficult courses.  We must accept our own limitations and choose accordingly.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 26 April 2011 - 01:03 PM.

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#68 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:20 PM

Par 4 hole where there is a 90' dogleg right with trees on both sides of fairway. You are forced to hit mid iron to specific spot from the tee. too  and in the trees. too short and you don't have an angle to hit at green and end up chipping up to the bend in dogleg.

The problem with holes like this is they are often not marked on the yardage to the end of fairway. without rangefinder or gps telling you how far it is to center of bend in dogleg you end up guessing between clubs.
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#69 OneBowTie

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

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#70 Pepperturbo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:31 PM

View Postadstout, on 26 April 2011 - 01:20 PM, said:

Par 4 hole where there is a 90' dogleg right with trees on both sides of fairway. You are forced to hit mid iron to specific spot from the tee. too  and in the trees. too short and you don't have an angle to hit at green and end up chipping up to the bend in dogleg.

The problem with holes like this is they are often not marked on the yardage to the end of fairway. without rangefinder or gps telling you how far it is to center of bend in dogleg you end up guessing between clubs.

I understand your point.  All that I can say is its at that point "execution" of that shot is imperative; is it not?  My intention is not to be a smartazzz, but if you face conditions like that often, as I do, there's an incentive for buying a GPS.  I seldom face a course that posts yardage to dog-legs, or yardage to hazards or water off the tee.  We either guesstimate accurately and execute, or buy a GPS, or... count the added strokes.  :)

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#71 Pepperturbo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:38 PM

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or...  on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag.  Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club.  At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard.  If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.

Edited by Pepperturbo, 26 April 2011 - 01:39 PM.

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#72 jaskanski

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 01:45 PM

It's easy to get caught up in the par strategy. As a rule, the par is only an indication of how a hole should be played - not an absolute. The course doesn't care what number you post - on the player does.
At the end of a round, how many times does the average golfer say to themselves: " I should've played that par 4 as a par 5". In other words, caution may have been the better part of valour as we say. It's no coincidence that the biggest numbers racked up at the Masters have come on par 3 and par 5 holes - where the risk factor over reward can only be anticipated from the tee - the conservative tee shot has no risk of a poor second, since the decision to leave a specific yardage has already been made. As for par 3's, you only have two wrong options - wrong club or wrong shot. The 12th at Augusta has seen it's fair share of both. In either case, players who score the high numbers on par 3's or  par 4's or par 5's would gladly replay the hole at a different  stroke allowance a walk offf without a reasonable bogie, rather than an ugly double or worse. Play to your strengths and weaknesses on each hole. Leave par out of the equation - it's a Jedi mind trick.

Edited by jaskanski, 26 April 2011 - 01:46 PM.


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#73 cardoustie

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:05 PM

I did not see par 4's with water all down one side listed in this thread  ...especially when they occur over and over again.  This is Florida at its worst and my biggest peeve

Suffered thru this at Pete Dye Challenge course in Palm Springs, CA .... Mission Hills.  There were five or six par 4 holes just like TPC Sawgrass #18, 430 to 460. I kid you not.  Pull your drive a whisker (or overcook a draw) and you are 3 off the tee or taking a drop way back.    That is overly penal imo.

I fall under the Payne Stewart design philosophy - minimal water = the best courses.  Part of golf I feel is being able to recover from your misses with creativity.  Sure you can have the odd water hazard hole but not 13 of them.

I also like to see one driveable par 4 at every course and all 4 par 3's challenge a diff club in my bag, I would say give me 140, 175, 200 and 225 and that would be ideal

The six iron off the tee on a par 5 is beyond stupid as well.  I also seem to be seeing lots of long par 4's ie 480 that now have small greens that are really protected.  Used to be the long par 4's gave you an option to chase a shot on if you needed to (which is part of the genius at Augusta IMO)

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#74 tp280

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:04 PM

Any course that has boulders were slight misses can be deflected hundreds of yards away is a joke. Case in point Whitney Oaks, (Northern California) #'s 4 and 11. Johnny Miller, what were you thinking? I know it was a tough site but the boulders have no place out there.

Edited by tp280, 26 April 2011 - 03:04 PM.

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#75 Pepperturbo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:17 PM

View Posttp280, on 26 April 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

Any course that has boulders were slight misses can be deflected hundreds of yards away is a joke. Case in point Whitney Oaks, (Northern California) #'s 4 and 11. Johnny Miller, what were you thinking? I know it was a tough site but the boulders have no place out there.

So, you're saying that Scottsdale Troon Monument #3 with the boulder in the fairway of the dog leg Par 5 is wrong, and that Sherwood's Par 4 # 16 with an outcropping and boulder (Rock Hole) in the middle is wrong???  :lol: I think both are great holes, and I've played each a few times.  Both do however require course management forethought.  What's interesting is I've never head a pro speak negatively about "Rock Hole".

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#76 tp280

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 05:23 PM

There are plenty of holes where rocks are unabtrusive or can be avoided through strategic play, no issues with most designers use of rocks on desert courses, if a ball misses a green hits a rock and is lost, that's not something I want to repeatedly deal with. The angles are important. A boulder  covering half the greens width, just two yards short of  the greens edge on a 210 yard par 3 that plays into a prevailing wind, no good, get the dynamite! :busted2:

A par five like #5 at the Indian Wells Country Club Tournament course, where if you want to be bold and go straight over the mountain corner on your second shot no issues, or you play around it, your option.  :rockon:

Added, a google maps search shows the rocks on 4 at Whintney Oaks have been reduced quite a bit in the last few years. Still plenty of smaller boulders just off the fairway on hole 11.

Edited by tp280, 26 April 2011 - 06:29 PM.

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#77 Roland of Gilead

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:03 PM

View PostCARDY, on 26 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

I also like to see one driveable par 4 at every course and all 4 par 3's challenge a diff club in my bag, I would say give me 140, 175, 200 and 225 and that would be ideal

+1 to this and everyone who mentioned bringing back the short par 3. Adding to that, if I were a superintendent I would try to set up my par 3s with a front, back, left and right pin as often as possible. I'd love to hit four fades from a perfect lie to back right pins, but it isn't the best test of my game.

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#78 Go_Blue!

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:18 PM

Im with many that hate having to hit iron or hybrid off a tee for a par 5....dumb. no logic there. U make a hole longer than all others yet u force me to take a club less than what I have for shorter holes....doesn't make much sense
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#79 OneBowTie

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:27 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or...  on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag.  Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club.  At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard.  If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.

Slow play in almost all cases has to do with course design....... like I said, where you have a course that has 2 par 5's on same side where most golfers are going to try and get home in two is bad course design..... OB within the course is bad design, has nothing to do with what or how your wife hits a golf ball.... these are just a few examples of what starts/adds too/creates slow play. Or I suppose you don't think a course that has a par 5 that most golfers tend to go for it in two, followed up on the next hole by a very long par 3 with a long carry over a hazard and surrounded by deep bunkers everywhere doesn't add to slow play eitherPosted Image.... bad course designs add to slow play, course management is just another element that can also lead to slow play.......

And seeing how you mentioned GPS units- I love em and use them, but I am seeing more and more people use them and instead of it speeding up their play, they seem to cause them to  slow down play.....they tend to look at their GPS units, then start walking all over the course to see a marked sprinkler head to check the yardage of their unit..... then go back to cart and get a club..... but some would say that they are exercising good course management to get the very best yardage available to themPosted Image- I call it slow play period.


I have seen plenty of par 4 holes that force almost ALL golfers to layup.....  I guess you think on a course like that most golfers should go from playing 6300 yards to the 5200 yard tee marker so that they can clear the hazard!


Yes I see where you and your wife have excellent course management skills- but really, I'd expect nothing less from you when it comes to any kind of management skills- however, when you talk about the vast majority of amateur golfers- there is a reason the majority can't break 90- so course design plays a huge part into slow play- I wish we could put more faith into the average golfer that they will always pick the right club, and hit it correctly everytime-especially when you place hazards or anything else in their sight that might cause them to tighten up and impede  course management skills.





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#80 Pepperturbo

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 07:50 PM

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or...  on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag.  Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club.  At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard.  If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.

Slow play in almost all cases has to do with course design....... like I said, where you have a course that has 2 par 5's on same side where most golfers are going to try and get home in two is bad course design..... OB within the course is bad design, has nothing to do with what or how your wife hits a golf ball.... these are just a few examples of what starts/adds too/creates slow play. Or I suppose you don't think a course that has a par 5 that most golfers tend to go for it in two, followed up on the next hole by a very long par 3 with a long carry over a hazard and surrounded by deep bunkers everywhere doesn't add to slow play eitherPosted Image.... bad course designs add to slow play, course management is just another element that can also lead to slow play.......

And seeing how you mentioned GPS units- I love em and use them, but I am seeing more and more people use them and instead of it speeding up their play, they seem to cause them to  slow down play.....they tend to look at their GPS units, then start walking all over the course to see a marked sprinkler head to check the yardage of their unit..... then go back to cart and get a club..... but some would say that they are exercising good course management to get the very best yardage available to themPosted Image- I call it slow play period.


I have seen plenty of par 4 holes that force almost ALL golfers to layup.....  I guess you think on a course like that most golfers should go from playing 6300 yards to the 5200 yard tee marker so that they can clear the hazard!


Yes I see where you and your wife have excellent course management skills- but really, I'd expect nothing less from you when it comes to any kind of management skills- however, when you talk about the vast majority of amateur golfers- there is a reason the majority can't break 90- so course design plays a huge part into slow play- I wish we could put more faith into the average golfer that they will always pick the right club, and hit it correctly everytime-especially when you place hazards or anything else in their sight that might cause them to tighten up and impede  course management skills.


My intent is NOT to argue... Due to business I travel extensively at times...MI, TX, AZ & CA are the most common, but NY and DC sneak in now and again.  I never go anywhere without my clubs either.  :)  First off, I seldom see golfers going for Par 5's in two, and I play 2-3 times per week, every week.  I seldom see a course jump from 6300 to 5200; so I can't image where your playing.  

You can blame course design, but for the most part research has shown that's not the cause.  Having been on the board of two clubs where we've commissioned reports for all types of issues; design has been a factor, but not high on the list.  One factor that influences slow play are untrained cart girls stopping in the wrong spots, and guys constantly drinking while playing.  Another factor is water carry shots on the first or tenth tee, and golfers stopping to order lunch at the turn, instead of being able to order from a call box on the 9th tee.  

There are other influences, but I have an 2 fingers of single malt on the mind, so I am outa here.  Have a good one.

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#81 HoosierHacker89

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:11 PM

holes with ponds, creeks, lakes, rivers, or any other body of water, Fairway bunkers, bunkers next to the green, Out of bounds.

Basically any hazard....no i kidding, but i do seem to find sots of hazards lol.

I really don't like courses that don't punish bad driving. I think being the fairway should be a reward, and being in the rough should be punishing. I play several courses where it is hard to tell the difference between the cuts of grass.
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#82 Huskypride28

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:47 PM

My biggest pet peeve, and I usually find it on muni courses, are tee boxes that are aimed to the right or left of the fairway.

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#83 bazinky

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:55 PM

My top three design flaws are :

(1) Holes that use trees as an integral design element. One bad storm (or tree disease), and poof! Your challenging golf hole is suddenly a pussycat ...
There is a course I play somewhat frequently that used to have a tree protecting the green on a par 5. Up until a couple of years ago, you had to hit the proper side of the fairway, and then be able to hit a draw to get anywhere near the pin due to a tree protecting a good portion of the green. During some some bad storms, they subsequently lost the tree, and the hole is essentially a par 4 now ...

(2) Unreasonably difficult opening holes. Another course that I sometimes play redesigned their opening hole so that you either are hitting a blind shot to an exposed (i.e., rock-hard) green with a huge drop-off to the left and back of the green ,and O.B. right, or you are hitting off a downhill lie to a green that is sloped away (downhill) from the approach. To top it off, the hole also has a grass bunker in front of the green, so running the ball up or playing short of the green is impossible. I would have problems with the design of this hole in any instance, but as the opening hole on an already known slow course, it really seems like a questionable design. It is NOT fun watching a group of high-handicaps in front of you playing this hole!

(3) Any non-par 3 hole that does not allow improvisation (I'm talking to YOU, Pete Dye!). For example, I've played several of Dye courses where he puts a HUGE artificial mound in front on a short par 4 (usually with water in the back and surrounding the green, too), making the hole undriveable. Everyone (even a tour caliber player) has to lay up, and then hit a blind shot to the green. I happen to like a lot of Pete Dye's courses (had a blast playing Harbour Town, for example), but some of his holes don't do much to stimulate my golfing soul ...
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#84 atlanta golfer

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 08:58 PM

Narrow sloping fairway where you hit a nice drive and it lands in the fairway but can't hold the fairway.

Holes with houses or condos with OB located just a few feet inside the treeline, designed to maximize real estate lots that can be sold.

Tee boxes and tee placement situated to bring large overgrown trees into play just past the tee box.  If I'm going to hit a tree, let me do it 200 or more yards out, not 10 or 20.

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#85 IIdiceII

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

uneven crappy tee-boxes are my biggest pet peeve especially when the balls above your feet but the hole calls for a fade :russian_roulette:

the first two holes of my home course are really tough.

1st hole is a par 4 that is something like 290 down hill to a hazard so I cant hit driver. the landing area is blind which sometimes is annoying if the fairways soft cause your ball can plug. if you dont hit it far enough you'll have a really annoying downhill lie to an uphill green with a nice big bunker guarding the front. if you go long you'll have a down hill chip in heavy rough to a green that slopes back to front Posted Image

its a very hard 1st hole.

the 2nd hole is a pretty short par 5 but again, its about 300ish yards to the same hazard (wetlands) with a downhill fairway which slopes to the right which can leave a VERY akward lie to another uphill green. if you go left, youre in the fescue.

then the next hole is a 220yd par 3 with ob right :cheesy:

crazy first three holes from the tips especially in the wind.


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#86 OneBowTie

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:17 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 26 April 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

View PostOneBowTie, on 26 April 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Really a good thread that has evolved into many good thoughts and suggestions.

In regards to OP's position of forced layups....... on long par 4's that changing tee box's would have no effect on, its just another design flaw that leads to slow play and long rounds.

I think that most all of todays slow play problems are related to design flaws of the golf course.

Courses that have 2 par 5's on the same side that a majority of golfers will try to get home in two generally leads to a huge back up on course.

Add in par 3's that stretch out to 200 plus yards with those go for it par 5's, and you have a slow play disaster in the making.

I also agree that courses that have OB within the course, is another course that most likely will have slow play and long rounds. Bad design in my opinion.

I also agree that any course that puts boulders, tree's or anything in the middle of the fairway is a bad design, and again, probably leads to slow play and course back ups.

I love a course that offers various challenge and design by having long and short holes, but if smartly designed, they will add to fast pace of play and challenging and enjoyable rounds by all.

A par 4 that measures 450 plus that has a pond at 200 yards in the middle of the fairway is a lousy design, hit a drive 190 and have to hit 260 to get home- just isn't a reality for most amateur golfers- which will cause for tons of balls in drink off tee, and then tons more lost left/right for over swinging- which leads to a huge course back up and slow play.... I would avoid that type of course at all costs.

Sorry, but blaming slow play or someone's poor judgment, or...  on course design is simply ludicrous.... All golfers have 14 clubs in their bag.  Its not the designers fault if many only use this or that club because it's their favorite or longest club.  At that juncture they should be using course management, moreover practicing to be effective with all fourteen clubs and have the good sense to move up to the tee that allows them reasonable GIR and possibly to clear the hazard.  If my 12 handicap wife can manage it from the White tees' there's no reason men can't.

Slow play in almost all cases has to do with course design....... like I said, where you have a course that has 2 par 5's on same side where most golfers are going to try and get home in two is bad course design..... OB within the course is bad design, has nothing to do with what or how your wife hits a golf ball.... these are just a few examples of what starts/adds too/creates slow play. Or I suppose you don't think a course that has a par 5 that most golfers tend to go for it in two, followed up on the next hole by a very long par 3 with a long carry over a hazard and surrounded by deep bunkers everywhere doesn't add to slow play eitherPosted Image.... bad course designs add to slow play, course management is just another element that can also lead to slow play.......

And seeing how you mentioned GPS units- I love em and use them, but I am seeing more and more people use them and instead of it speeding up their play, they seem to cause them to  slow down play.....they tend to look at their GPS units, then start walking all over the course to see a marked sprinkler head to check the yardage of their unit..... then go back to cart and get a club..... but some would say that they are exercising good course management to get the very best yardage available to themPosted Image- I call it slow play period.


I have seen plenty of par 4 holes that force almost ALL golfers to layup.....  I guess you think on a course like that most golfers should go from playing 6300 yards to the 5200 yard tee marker so that they can clear the hazard!


Yes I see where you and your wife have excellent course management skills- but really, I'd expect nothing less from you when it comes to any kind of management skills- however, when you talk about the vast majority of amateur golfers- there is a reason the majority can't break 90- so course design plays a huge part into slow play- I wish we could put more faith into the average golfer that they will always pick the right club, and hit it correctly everytime-especially when you place hazards or anything else in their sight that might cause them to tighten up and impede  course management skills.


My intent is NOT to argue... Due to business I travel extensively at times...MI, TX, AZ & CA are the most common, but NY and DC sneak in now and again.  I never go anywhere without my clubs either.  :)  First off, I seldom see golfers going for Par 5's in two, and I play 2-3 times per week, every week.  I seldom see a course jump from 6300 to 5200; so I can't image where your playing.  

You can blame course design, but for the most part research has shown that's not the cause.  Having been on the board of two clubs where we've commissioned reports for all types of issues; design has been a factor, but not high on the list.  One factor that influences slow play are untrained cart girls stopping in the wrong spots, and guys constantly drinking while playing.  Another factor is water carry shots on the first or tenth tee, and golfers stopping to order lunch at the turn, instead of being able to order from a call box on the 9th tee.  

There are other influences, but I have an 2 fingers of single malt on the mind, so I am outa here.  Have a good one.

Pepper...... come on you really didn't just tell me that you play all over the globe and "seldom" see a course yardage jump from 6300 down to 5200 yardsPosted Image you should really look at the score cards more often. I won't bother listing any of the common man courses that you don't play..... so I'll list some of the courses that a man of your stature might frequent and give you some of the course yardages

Here are just a few courses in CA that vary in yardages
Aviara 7007 yards down to 5007 yards
Westin Mission Hills- 6700 down to 4800
Torrey Pines South- 7600 yards down to 5500
Pebble Beach 6700 yards down to 5200

some notable NY course you may have heard of

Shinnecock Hills - 6800  down to 5300
Fishers Island Club- 6600 down to 5300

Michigan courses that are popular

Bay Harbor- from 7000 yards down to 4100
Arcadia Bluffs from 7300 down to 5200
Tulleymore 7200 down to 4700

Now I play on average of at least 3 times per week myself, and have been lucky enough to play some courses in various states..... and I quite regularly see yardages vary from the different tee markers.

I'm sure all the studies you've been involved with on golf courses has told you what all the problems of slow play are.... and why does it not surprise me that course design is low on that list of studies..... If I didn't know better, I swear you work for government with your studies that tell you everything but what the real problems are..... heck with all your vast knowledge and course experience, you should have saved them the time and money on them studies and just told them like you tell everyone here what all the problems are ..... and how to correct them...... no argument from me- you have all the answers all the timePosted Image

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#87 crtssxc

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:19 PM

+1 for not liking trees to come into play on a par 3, especially when they hang over the forward tee box, or block the front half of the green.  Trees left... ok.  Trees right... no problem.  Put a tree that knocks down my good drive... Posted Image

edit: spelling

Edited by crtssxc, 26 April 2011 - 09:19 PM.


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#88 bazinky

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 09:42 PM

View Postatlanta golfer, on 26 April 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

Narrow sloping fairway where you hit a nice drive and it lands in the fairway but can't hold the fairway.

Holes with houses or condos with OB located just a few feet inside the treeline, designed to maximize real estate lots that can be sold.

Tee boxes and tee placement situated to bring large overgrown trees into play just past the tee box.  If I'm going to hit a tree, let me do it 200 or more yards out, not 10 or 20.

Ahhhh! I hadn't played a course like that in a while, but the bold part of your post reminds me of the number one design flaw I've ever witnessed. I once played subdivision course that had at least 3 holes with O.B. on BOTH sides of the fairway due to the number of houses. Needless to say, I never played that course again ...
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#89 Bodee

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:08 PM

My biggest peave is when tee boxes don't point down the fairway but point towards the right or left. Just irks me.
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#90 yumbrownies

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 10:10 PM

Very interesting topic/thread. A couple of mine:
- Par 3s that are all pretty much the same length.  I'd like to have each one require me to hit a different club.
- Blind tee shots where some kind of hazard/dogleg/whatever comes into play.  If it's a straight shot but you can't see the whole fairway, that's fine. If it doglegs out there somewhere or there's a bunker you can't see from the tee, that's a pain, especially if you don't have a hole diagram/picture available. It's stupid to have to guess where the fairway might be.
- In-course out of bounds. I get the reasoning behind it, but it's still pretty stupid.
- Poor tee boxes.  This includes ones that get so little sunlight that they are pretty much bare dirt, ones that are too small and have so many divots that they're pretty much bare dirt, and ones that AREN'T LEVEL.

For the forced layups, it really depends on how it's done.  Something that turns a par 5 into a reasonable three shot hole is usually okay. Same thing with a short, funky par 4 that forces you to hit an iron off the tee, but still leaves you with a reasonable approach.  And example of what I DON'T like is this: I once played a course where a par 5 went out about 200 yards and made a 90-degree dogleg right, straight up a hill. I hit 6 iron off the tee and went through the fairway. Not cool.

For trees and things coming into play off the tee that force you to shape a shot... I hate them, but I really respect them as a good design feature. I think courses should force you to hit a bunch of different shots or place it off the tee or shape it once in a while. But dang, do they make it hard sometimes...


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