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Least favorite design feature on a golf hole.


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#361 Strömsborg

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 03:28 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 18 June 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

View PostStrömsborg, on 18 June 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

View PostHighSpeedScene, on 16 June 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

View Postknock it close, on 15 June 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 15 June 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

I don't understand why would that bother anyone.   So you can't go for the green.  Just hit the appropriate club to the red landing area and iron into green.  I doubt the designer thought about driver to green.

The other day I watched a guy ignore the target landing area on nearly every hole, in lieu of picking a line that wasn't considered by the designer of the course we were on... I know that because most courses its somewhat easy to identify where the designer wants the golfer to hit to.  From elevated tee on on hole, I faded 2i around trees and had 145yd leave and pared it.  He when over trees not knowing what was up there.  Turned out he took double, all because driver was his club du jour on most long holes.
You realize that if you hit into the red landing area you are completely blocked out by the trees right? That very well may be the worst hole I have ever seen.

I can't think of one worse

Played there again yesterday. The group in front of us were in trouble and when it was time for us to hit we were six guys on the tee and we decided to play it all at once. Out of six tee shots there were two in the rough over the bunker, two in the fairway to the right, one in the rough just short of the green (315 yards, that guy's got some speed) and myself I ended up in the red area after hitting a the pine tree just in front of the tee box. My stock shape is a push draw and I was stupid and teed it up on the right edge of the tee box. Anyway, I had the the last oak tree directly in line with the flag and my only option was to hit a hooked and punched three quarter six iron to the right edge and try to chip it close.
Remarkably all three in the group that caught up with us made a birdie (hcp's between 2.5 and 0.5) and in my group there were two pars and my bogey (hcp's ~3.5). It's not a hard hole, if you have 260 carry or more with your driver.

Apologies if these ideas have been discussed, I didn't see them.

1. If your stock shot is a push draw, can't you just go over the trees to the right? (So you draw it into the area behind the shaded red area, drawing it over the trees to the right of the tee box).  Those trees look much closer to you than the ones in front,so  you can probably get a hybrid/3w over them and then hit a long club to the green.  Its shorter distance so you can clear them easily it looks like and get far enough right.  You'll be pretty far back (directly behind the red shaded area) but in play.

2.  What's left of the tee box?  On our #6 I play it up #1 (its a similar hole thats super tight).  Can you go anywhere left?

1. You mean here?
Posted Image
That means hitting an area 20 yards deep 220 yards away, it's completely blind from the tee and sloping away. Hitting over the trees to the right is easy but the target is microscopic. A slice will be lost. A hook and short will be blocked by trees. Long and you are likely blocked by trees and you will be in the rough with the ball below your feet.

2. To the left is a large open area shared with the 17 (also red on the map), hitting it there is pure guesswork. The carry is almost as long as if aming at the fairway and provided you find your ball (and didn't kill someone on the 17th) you have a about a 10% chance of having a shot at the green.

Edited by Strömsborg, 18 June 2017 - 03:29 PM.

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After how long does being "out of form" turn into "a bad golfer"?

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#362 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:44 PM

View PostStrömsborg, on 18 June 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

That means hitting an area 20 yards deep 220 yards away, it's completely blind from the tee and sloping away. Hitting over the trees to the right is easy but the target is microscopic. A slice will be lost. A hook and short will be blocked by trees. Long and you are likely blocked by trees and you will be in the rough with the ball below your feet.

2. To the left is a large open area shared with the 17 (also red on the map), hitting it there is pure guesswork. The carry is almost as long as if aming at the fairway and provided you find your ball (and didn't kill someone on the 17th) you have a about a 10% chance of having a shot at the green.

Number 2 doesn't work because of that stupid single tree in between the other trees.  Yeah, this hole is dumb.

How far is the red shaded area you just added from the tee box (the one I suggested)?  20 yard target isn't *that* bad if its a short enough club, and it looks like one redeeming feature is being able bounce a shot into the green complex, so 220 out while tough isn't the end of the world if isn't a carry.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 18 June 2017 - 06:45 PM.

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#363 Mudguard

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 02:18 AM

I'd probably go left. Hit hybrid or 3i. What would that leave you in? The second might even be shorter than playing the actual hole. Link for Google earth or maps?

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#364 mshills

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:10 AM

In course O.B. is the one thing that irks me. Out of bounds is just that -- off the property, not on the golf course.

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#365 Strömsborg

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 11:44 AM

View PostMudguard, on 19 June 2017 - 02:18 AM, said:

I'd probably go left. Hit hybrid or 3i. What would that leave you in? The second might even be shorter than playing the actual hole. Link for Google earth or maps?

https://www.google.s...7.6326618?hl=en

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After how long does being "out of form" turn into "a bad golfer"?

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#366 warfelg

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:43 PM

View Postmshills, on 19 June 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

In course O.B. is the one thing that irks me. Out of bounds is just that -- off the property, not on the golf course.

Aerial OB is even worse than on course.

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#367 1puttTUT

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 05:41 PM

View Postlarrybud, on 25 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

Played a course with a couple of golfwrx's yesterday at Metamora CC, and something came to my attention.  As a comparative short knocker (my good ones go 240), one of my least favorite holes is a long par 4 with a forced layup off the tee.  I don't want to hit a 200 yard tee ball and leave myself with 200+ in.  And it was even worse than that, because it was a dogleg left, with the tee ball over a lake.  The big hitters can cut the corner, but to be safe I can't do that.  So any amount I push it right leaves me with an even longer approach shot.

Another type of hole I don't like is one whose design overly punishes a tee ball which is barely offline.  A course called Greystone which we played Saturday has the final two holes like this.  They're ridiculous designs.  Hit a tee ball 1 foot too far right and it's as bad as hitting it 50 yards too far right.

Yeah #6 is a b!tch
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#368 PooN

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    poor little ball...

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:21 PM

Bunkers with vegetation growing in or down into them.  These abound at Whistling Straits where if you hit a ball and it rolls into a small but deep bunker it may hang on the vertical grassy/fescue-y edge.  No stance, no swing, no shot.  You basically have to just knock it free down into the sand and then play your regular bunker shot.  Either make it a sand bunker or make it a grassy pot bunker, but not both.

Posted Image
Example of pin high shot that rolled into the "bunker" but hung on the lip.  Picture doesn't do justice to the severity of the slope of the grassy area.

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#369 noahdavis_7

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 02:35 PM

Par 3s longer than 220. A 250 yard par 3 is just ridiculous, and I say that as a pretty decent player!
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#370 duffer987

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:26 PM

View PostPooN, on 21 June 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Bunkers with vegetation growing in or down into them.  These abound at Whistling Straits where if you hit a ball and it rolls into a small but deep bunker it may hang on the vertical grassy/fescue-y edge.  No stance, no swing, no shot.  You basically have to just knock it free down into the sand and then play your regular bunker shot.  Either make it a sand bunker or make it a grassy pot bunker, but not both.

Posted Image
Example of pin high shot that rolled into the "bunker" but hung on the lip.  Picture doesn't do justice to the severity of the slope of the grassy area.

Ya I hate those "pin high" shots on 9 that roll diagonally back 15yds into that left side bunker ;)

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#371 PooN

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    poor little ball...

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:54 PM

View Postduffer987, on 21 June 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Ya I hate those "pin high" shots on 9 that roll diagonally back 15yds into that left side bunker ;)

Not sure what you're gettin at... that is pretty much as pin high as a ball can be - that's practically a straight 90 degree line to the pin - this view is standing on the left side of the green, the fairway in this photo is to the right. I hit (read: overcooked) a draw into that front pin and ball hit a couple inches on the green, bounced forward a couple inches and slowly rolled through the frog hair and over the lip of the bunker.  I thought, "no big deal, just gotta get up and down out of the bunker" and that's what I walked up to.  That bunker edge is like straight up and down - which would be fine if the ball doesn't get stuck in the grassy outgrowth and would've just fallen to the bottom of the bunker.

Posted Image

Edited by PooN, 21 June 2017 - 10:00 PM.


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#372 Yzmerf

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:54 PM

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#373 duffer987

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 10:17 AM

View PostPooN, on 21 June 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 21 June 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Ya I hate those "pin high" shots on 9 that roll diagonally back 15yds into that left side bunker ;)

Not sure what you're gettin at... that is pretty much as pin high as a ball can be - that's practically a straight 90 degree line to the pin - this view is standing on the left side of the green, the fairway in this photo is to the right. I hit (read: overcooked) a draw into that front pin and ball hit a couple inches on the green, bounced forward a couple inches and slowly rolled through the frog hair and over the lip of the bunker.  I thought, "no big deal, just gotta get up and down out of the bunker" and that's what I walked up to.  That bunker edge is like straight up and down - which would be fine if the ball doesn't get stuck in the grassy outgrowth and would've just fallen to the bottom of the bunker.


I'm just messing. I liked the mitigation of the pin high is all.
I don't mind the shaggy faces if the ball can sit up - which it seems to be there. Then it's just a matter of finding a stance and popping it up, like any other extreme uphill in the rough shot you face on a links/faux links course. If they have shaggy backsides and you end up with a downhiller instead of it sitting in the bunker, that would annoy me.
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#374 umassgolfer

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 10:36 AM

View Postduffer987, on 22 June 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

View PostPooN, on 21 June 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 21 June 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Ya I hate those "pin high" shots on 9 that roll diagonally back 15yds into that left side bunker ;)

Not sure what you're gettin at... that is pretty much as pin high as a ball can be - that's practically a straight 90 degree line to the pin - this view is standing on the left side of the green, the fairway in this photo is to the right. I hit (read: overcooked) a draw into that front pin and ball hit a couple inches on the green, bounced forward a couple inches and slowly rolled through the frog hair and over the lip of the bunker.  I thought, "no big deal, just gotta get up and down out of the bunker" and that's what I walked up to.  That bunker edge is like straight up and down - which would be fine if the ball doesn't get stuck in the grassy outgrowth and would've just fallen to the bottom of the bunker.


I'm just messing. I liked the mitigation of the pin high is all.
I don't mind the shaggy faces if the ball can sit up - which it seems to be there. Then it's just a matter of finding a stance and popping it up, like any other extreme uphill in the rough shot you face on a links/faux links course. If they have shaggy backsides and you end up with a downhiller instead of it sitting in the bunker, that would annoy me.

Agreed. I can't stand shaggy backsides. Wait...what are we talking about here?

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#375 pappaf2

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:07 PM

Here is a dumb hole on a local course that is the epitome of "hit a good shot or else".
This is #14 at Canyon Lakes Golf Club in San Ramon CA.
I realize the topography limited what they could do but I really wish this hole was designed better.

This hole is a par 5 that doglegs to the left and plays 500 yards from the white tees. I've marked the tee boxes with an R, W, and B to denote the tees. The tee box is slightly elevated above the level of the fairway and requires a forced carry of 150 yards from the whites to reach the fairway. On the right side of the fairway is an steep hill with native grass and trees. If you miss right of the cart path there is a 90% chance your ball is gone. On the left side of the fairway there is heavy rough and a steep slope to a creek approximately 16' below the level of the fairway. Miss too far left there is a good chance your ball is gone. It the rough stops before it goes in the creek you have a awkward recovery shot just to get it back to the fairway.

I've put 3 lines on this image to show fairway width at different spots on the fairway.
- At 200 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 17 yards wide.
- At 250 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 22 yards wide.
-At 125 yards from the center of the green the fairway is 26 yards wide.

What is someone playing the white tees supposed to hit on a fairway that's narrower than an average US open fairway with all that trouble on both sides? Laying up to 200y gives you just as much chance to find the trouble as hitting driver to 230-270.

Once you get past the tee shot you need to setup the approach shot. You don't get an unobstructed view of the green until you get 150 yards from the center of the green. The fairway is still relatively narrow at only 26 Yards wide from the center of the tee. When you are hitting from that 100-150 yard range the green is elevated approximately 16ft above the level of the fairway. Anything that comes up short of the green (and not in the bunkers) rolls down into the creek bed about 30ft-40ft below the level of the green. If you go to long you are pitching off a steep down slope in a native area to a green that runs away (down towards that creek bed).

This hole just seems overly penal imo. Not really sure how to rework it given the land area short of turning it into a par 4. (edit- actually I think turning this into a par 4 by putting the teebox closer to where the fairway starts could turn this into a good hole. It would put the landing area for driver up by those bunkers thus allowing you to miss right and be playable, but having to contend with the bunkers.)

14_Canyon_Lakes.jpg

Edited by pappaf2, 15 February 2018 - 04:17 PM.

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#376 Double Gee

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:10 PM

Bunkers.... Designed by Beelzebub.

Any bunker, any WHERE !

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#377 slocagolfer

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:52 PM

A hole where a poor shot double penalizes you. For example, a fairway bunker with a tree in the line of  play.

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#378 caniac6

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:00 PM

I don't like green complexes that don't allow for options. I like greens that allow for low, running shots as well as playing high shots.

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#379 duffer987

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:16 PM

View Postpappaf2, on 15 February 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

Here is a dumb hole on a local course that is the epitome of "hit a good shot or else".
This is #14 at Canyon Lakes Golf Club in San Ramon CA.
I realize the topography limited what they could do but I really wish this hole was designed better.

This hole is a par 5 that doglegs to the left and plays 500 yards from the white tees. I've marked the tee boxes with an R, W, and B to denote the tees. The tee box is slightly elevated above the level of the fairway and requires a forced carry of 150 yards from the whites to reach the fairway. On the right side of the fairway is an steep hill with native grass and trees. If you miss right of the cart path there is a 90% chance your ball is gone. On the left side of the fairway there is heavy rough and a steep slope to a creek approximately 16' below the level of the fairway. Miss too far left there is a good chance your ball is gone. It the rough stops before it goes in the creek you have a awkward recovery shot just to get it back to the fairway.

I've put 3 lines on this image to show fairway width at different spots on the fairway.
- At 200 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 17 yards wide.
- At 250 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 22 yards wide.
-At 125 yards from the center of the green the fairway is 26 yards wide.

What is someone playing the white tees supposed to hit on a fairway that's narrower than an average US open fairway with all that trouble on both sides? Laying up to 200y gives you just as much chance to find the trouble as hitting driver to 230-270.

Once you get past the tee shot you need to setup the approach shot. You don't get an unobstructed view of the green until you get 150 yards from the center of the green. The fairway is still relatively narrow at only 26 Yards wide from the center of the tee. When you are hitting from that 100-150 yard range the green is elevated approximately 16ft above the level of the fairway. Anything that comes up short of the green (and not in the bunkers) rolls down into the creek bed about 30ft-40ft below the level of the green. If you go to long you are pitching off a steep down slope in a native area to a green that runs away (down towards that creek bed).

This hole just seems overly penal imo. Not really sure how to rework it given the land area short of turning it into a par 4. (edit- actually I think turning this into a par 4 by putting the teebox closer to where the fairway starts could turn this into a good hole. It would put the landing area for driver up by those bunkers thus allowing you to miss right and be playable, but having to contend with the bunkers.)

Attachment 14_Canyon_Lakes.jpg

I played Bridges now and again, but never Canyon Lakes. Is it largely on the same terrain? Google maps seems to show the same kind of shoehorning in between houses and stuff.
In that neck of the woods it's pretty impossible to not have stupid holes.
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#380 pappaf2

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:44 PM

View Postduffer987, on 15 February 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

View Postpappaf2, on 15 February 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

Here is a dumb hole on a local course that is the epitome of "hit a good shot or else".
This is #14 at Canyon Lakes Golf Club in San Ramon CA.
I realize the topography limited what they could do but I really wish this hole was designed better.

This hole is a par 5 that doglegs to the left and plays 500 yards from the white tees. I've marked the tee boxes with an R, W, and B to denote the tees. The tee box is slightly elevated above the level of the fairway and requires a forced carry of 150 yards from the whites to reach the fairway. On the right side of the fairway is an steep hill with native grass and trees. If you miss right of the cart path there is a 90% chance your ball is gone. On the left side of the fairway there is heavy rough and a steep slope to a creek approximately 16' below the level of the fairway. Miss too far left there is a good chance your ball is gone. It the rough stops before it goes in the creek you have a awkward recovery shot just to get it back to the fairway.

I've put 3 lines on this image to show fairway width at different spots on the fairway.
- At 200 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 17 yards wide.
- At 250 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 22 yards wide.
-At 125 yards from the center of the green the fairway is 26 yards wide.

What is someone playing the white tees supposed to hit on a fairway that's narrower than an average US open fairway with all that trouble on both sides? Laying up to 200y gives you just as much chance to find the trouble as hitting driver to 230-270.

Once you get past the tee shot you need to setup the approach shot. You don't get an unobstructed view of the green until you get 150 yards from the center of the green. The fairway is still relatively narrow at only 26 Yards wide from the center of the tee. When you are hitting from that 100-150 yard range the green is elevated approximately 16ft above the level of the fairway. Anything that comes up short of the green (and not in the bunkers) rolls down into the creek bed about 30ft-40ft below the level of the green. If you go to long you are pitching off a steep down slope in a native area to a green that runs away (down towards that creek bed).

This hole just seems overly penal imo. Not really sure how to rework it given the land area short of turning it into a par 4. (edit- actually I think turning this into a par 4 by putting the teebox closer to where the fairway starts could turn this into a good hole. It would put the landing area for driver up by those bunkers thus allowing you to miss right and be playable, but having to contend with the bunkers.)

Attachment 14_Canyon_Lakes.jpg

I played Bridges now and again, but never Canyon Lakes. Is it largely on the same terrain? Google maps seems to show the same kind of shoehorning in between houses and stuff.
In that neck of the woods it's pretty impossible to not have stupid holes.

Yeah it's largely the same terrain. You can see the hole I'm complaining about from #2 green and #3 teebox at Bridges. Yeah as you said the topography for these courses makes it very tough to not have some stupid holes. I just happen to think this particular hole is more stupid than most because it doesn't give you a place to miss off the tee. Probably doesn't help that this hole always kicks my butt and takes my lunch money. :black eye:
My strategy for the next time I play it is take 6 or 7 iron off the tee and then hit a 5 iron or hybrid to get to the 140s range for the approach shot.

The plus side is the course opened a brewery on site so I can drown my sorrows. :alcoholic:

Edited by pappaf2, 15 February 2018 - 05:50 PM.

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#381 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 06:11 PM

View Postpappaf2, on 15 February 2018 - 04:07 PM, said:

Here is a dumb hole on a local course that is the epitome of "hit a good shot or else".
This is #14 at Canyon Lakes Golf Club in San Ramon CA.
I realize the topography limited what they could do but I really wish this hole was designed better.

This hole is a par 5 that doglegs to the left and plays 500 yards from the white tees. I've marked the tee boxes with an R, W, and B to denote the tees. The tee box is slightly elevated above the level of the fairway and requires a forced carry of 150 yards from the whites to reach the fairway. On the right side of the fairway is an steep hill with native grass and trees. If you miss right of the cart path there is a 90% chance your ball is gone. On the left side of the fairway there is heavy rough and a steep slope to a creek approximately 16' below the level of the fairway. Miss too far left there is a good chance your ball is gone. It the rough stops before it goes in the creek you have a awkward recovery shot just to get it back to the fairway.

I've put 3 lines on this image to show fairway width at different spots on the fairway.
- At 200 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 17 yards wide.
- At 250 yards off the white tees the fairway landing area is only 22 yards wide.
-At 125 yards from the center of the green the fairway is 26 yards wide.

What is someone playing the white tees supposed to hit on a fairway that's narrower than an average US open fairway with all that trouble on both sides? Laying up to 200y gives you just as much chance to find the trouble as hitting driver to 230-270.

Once you get past the tee shot you need to setup the approach shot. You don't get an unobstructed view of the green until you get 150 yards from the center of the green. The fairway is still relatively narrow at only 26 Yards wide from the center of the tee. When you are hitting from that 100-150 yard range the green is elevated approximately 16ft above the level of the fairway. Anything that comes up short of the green (and not in the bunkers) rolls down into the creek bed about 30ft-40ft below the level of the green. If you go to long you are pitching off a steep down slope in a native area to a green that runs away (down towards that creek bed).

This hole just seems overly penal imo. Not really sure how to rework it given the land area short of turning it into a par 4. (edit- actually I think turning this into a par 4 by putting the teebox closer to where the fairway starts could turn this into a good hole. It would put the landing area for driver up by those bunkers thus allowing you to miss right and be playable, but having to contend with the bunkers

That looks and sounds like a hard hole. Better hit quality shots m
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#382 thug the bunny

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 10:57 PM

My Ross course has a bunch of features that kerfuffle me. I'm trying to count now.....3 of the greens have these confounded mounds right in front. They look like zits. You hit a nice approach to a middle pin and it hits on the front of the mound and rolls back off the green. Or it lands on the back side of the mound and skips forward like a chunk of greased bacon. Then there are his split level greens. He was the architect of split level long before they became a blueprint for suburban homes. You're on the wrong level, and 3 putt is not too bad.

Another course feature that irks me is fescue 2 yds off the fairway.  I understand 'well just put it on the fairway' but when you are 3 yds right and can't find your ball, that = 5 hr rounds.
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#383 schley

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 01:38 AM

Posted Image


Wow I hate this hole, talk about unfair.  Either open up right fairway more, level it off, or take out some trees from crying out loud.

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