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Purposefully Rotate Hands/Forearms Through Impact?


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#91 Sean2

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:22 PM

View Postgators78, on 29 March 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

View Postgators78, on 29 March 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm told I have a decent swing. If I have a good pivot, and I shift my weight properly, and allow the arms, hands, and club along for the ride, then why do I lack distance? The only thing I can think of is lag, or lack there of.

When I rotate the hands through the impact area I gain more yardage. I make the same swing, i.e., I swing with my lower body and let everything else go along for the ride, the only thing I do differently is rotate the hands through the impact zone. Why would I gain more distance?

I haven't taken this to the course (the weather), but only have tried this during a few range sessions. I'll hit a few shots with my stock swing, then a few rotating my hands/forearms.

Only way to say for sure would be with a video, but I would guess either you may have a good pivot but just don't turn fast enough, or there could be room to make your pivot more efficient. You're hitting it farther when you rotate your arms because you're basically creating flash speed, the problem with this becomes it's extremely hard to time going from driver to wedge to iron etc over a round of golf and secondly its even harder to time over a couple of days. The reason is the flash speed created happens quite quickly, and in a short area, then when it's spent you've got zero power.

Ultimately it depends on where you are in your golf career, if you're playing a few times a month and want to lower your handicap but ok with leveling out then it's not a horrible way to do it. If you're trying to build your game for years and years it's a habit you don't want to build in.
I'm nearing 56, but I do want to get better. I work very hard on my game, i.e., lesson, a lot of practice, etc.

If you can/are able post a video, lot of good opinions on here and something might stick. I don't think it's for any of us to say well take the bandaid and enjoy average golf, or on the other hand quit your job and start working at the 9 to 3 drill all day long. What I would suspect is you prob need some more work on the pivot because I'm guessing your normal swing and 'rotating' swing aren't too much different, you're just stabilizing your body and getting that flash speed, which as we've all said works here and there, not everywhere.
I'll see if I can someone to get a video of my swing and I'll post it. Thank you.

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#92 Sean2

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:27 PM

View Postrussc, on 29 March 2011 - 04:27 PM, said:

View Postgators78, on 29 March 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

View Postgators78, on 29 March 2011 - 08:17 AM, said:

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'm told I have a decent swing. If I have a good pivot, and I shift my weight properly, and allow the arms, hands, and club along for the ride, then why do I lack distance? The only thing I can think of is lag, or lack there of.

When I rotate the hands through the impact area I gain more yardage. I make the same swing, i.e., I swing with my lower body and let everything else go along for the ride, the only thing I do differently is rotate the hands through the impact zone. Why would I gain more distance?

I haven't taken this to the course (the weather), but only have tried this during a few range sessions. I'll hit a few shots with my stock swing, then a few rotating my hands/forearms.

Only way to say for sure would be with a video, but I would guess either you may have a good pivot but just don't turn fast enough, or there could be room to make your pivot more efficient. You're hitting it farther when you rotate your arms because you're basically creating flash speed, the problem with this becomes it's extremely hard to time going from driver to wedge to iron etc over a round of golf and secondly its even harder to time over a couple of days. The reason is the flash speed created happens quite quickly, and in a short area, then when it's spent you've got zero power.

Ultimately it depends on where you are in your golf career, if you're playing a few times a month and want to lower your handicap but ok with leveling out then it's not a horrible way to do it. If you're trying to build your game for years and years it's a habit you don't want to build in.
I'm nearing 56, but I do want to get better. I work very hard on my game, i.e., lesson, a lot of practice, etc.

If you can/are able post a video, lot of good opinions on here and something might stick. I don't think it's for any of us to say well take the bandaid and enjoy average golf, or on the other hand quit your job and start working at the 9 to 3 drill all day long. What I would suspect is you prob need some more work on the pivot because I'm guessing your normal swing and 'rotating' swing aren't too much different, you're just stabilizing your body and getting that flash speed, which as we've all said works here and there, not everywhere.

+1 on video,both DTL and front.
Some other non swing suggestions.How is  your flexibility,your core strength,your specific golf muscle strength and your balance.No matter how good some of the suggestions may be from this board or from your pro,if you can not get to the correct positions and sustain them through some the pressures exerted on the downswing,you will not get the full benefit from any instruction.Golf is an athletic motion  and golfers should be in the best condition that they can be .You certainly do NOT need to train like a football player or an olympic downhill skier ,but you you do need  to train like a golfer
TPI.com is an excellent place to start and i believe that it is gratis.Take their flexibility test to start.
A simple example would be the balance test.Just stand up on both feet.Pick one foot off of the ground.Once you can do this with alternate feet off of the ground for 30 seconds ,close  your eyes and do the same thing.If you can do this for 45 seconds ,you are above the tour average.
Thanks Russ. I took the balance test. I can do 30 on the left and 40 on the right. As far as flexibility a trainer told me last year I have the flexibility of a 35 year old in good shape, but I'll look into that test.
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#93 dcfas

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 07:28 PM

Just a brief note-- a teacher friend suggested I try to consciously rotate the hands through impact when forcing a draw.  It works for me.  I have to practice it like crazy though, or I will not attempt it when it counts.

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#94 TB07

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:06 PM

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

View Posthoganfan924, on 29 March 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Wether it is pivot stall, pivot brake, or whatever pivot action you prefer or want to call it, that energy still has to be transmitted to the arms, hands and golf club.

You (like many current instructors it seems to me) are misunderstanding conservation of momentum.  Would a trebuchet designer ever install a brake on the arm and brake it before the projectile is released?

Pivot braking/stall does not increase the speed of the clubhead or add any energy, it just allows the clubhead to overtake earlier.


Conservation of momentum aside, I think MANY instructors are overlooking the fact that BOTH body AND arms are invloved to some degree.
As I said before, wether you CALL it brake/stall of pivot doesnt really matter. We know the body slows down SLIGHTLY in certain segments transmitting SOMETHING to the club. Wether thats conscious or not doesn't really matter. If your body works perfectly and your arms do not know how to work than they must be trained independantly.It may feel to some as if the arms are doing NOTHING, that doesn't mean this really happens.
But if the lower body swings the club, and the arms/hands/club just go along for the ride, then what do they need to be trained to do?



It is relative to what your body is doing specifically and what your arms are doing currently.

GENERALLY speaking MOST people need to train the arms to get down and in front of the body more in the downswing. Then they need a flattish lead wrist and bent trail wrist at impact. Then ultimately the forearms rotate.

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#95 DBreslin417

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:18 PM

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

It is relative to what your body is doing specifically and what your arms are doing currently.

GENERALLY speaking MOST people need to train the arms to get down and in front of the body more in the downswing. Then they need a flattish lead wrist and bent trail wrist at impact. Then ultimately the forearms rotate.

I'm just curious, but when you say getting the arms in front you are referring to lag, correct?  If so, isn't lag a by-product of a proper pivot?


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#96 upanddown

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

[/quote]
Agree with Gators...  The difference between players like Mahan and Mickelson is simply the type of release they are using.  Mahan swings left, Mickelson down the line.  No way that Mickelson consciously tries to rotate the hands over at impact, unless he is trying to "save" a shot as described by Slicertoscratch.
[/quote]

Ah but who says you have to CONSCIOUSLY rotate your hands to rotate your hands?  Any idea how many balls Phil has hit in his lifetime.  I'm sure most of what he does swinging is not conscious...

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#97 upanddown

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:25 PM

View Postmesquite2, on 29 March 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

So what does Johnny Miller mean when he says that the left hand & forearm need to turn down when hitting the ball? Pro's don't consciously try to do it because they learned to do it long ago.

Yup.. Johnny was on with Michael Breed last week and said basically you don't need to see a pro to cure your slice (Breed almost gagged!).  Johnny's advice..rotate your hands through impact so hard until you are pull hooking everything and eventually you'll get on the correct inside path and never slice again..

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#98 Professor D

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:20 PM

View Postgators78, on 29 March 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

View PostProfessor D, on 29 March 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

Important Fact: Rotating the body leftward does NOT cause the left wrist to independently rotate leftward from the upper arm. In fact, the opposite is true. Leftward body rotation puts a rightward rotational torque on the left wrist. So forget the idea that the "proper pivot" will "automatically" sqaure the clubface at impact. The only way that independent leftward wrist rotation is not required in the downswing is if no independent rightward wrist rotation occured in the backswing. There's an easy way to determine just how much your left wrist rotates from the upper arm in the backswing. Many, including teaching pros and good players, would be shocked to learn how much their left wrist actually rotates. So, at address, use a marker to mark a line on the top of your left bicep and another, in-line with it, on the top of your left wrist. Swing to the top. If the lines are not still in-line then you have rotated your left wrist from the upper arm. And you must rotate the wrist back to the in-line condition to return the clubface to its address alignment. Whether the wrist rotation is conscious or not does not change the fact that it must happen.

This is a pretty dangerous post. You're arguing anatomical function outside the context of a golf motion which is a good way to lose everybody. I can walk up to a punching bag, hold tension in my left arm and backhand it without thinking of rotating anything in my left arm and it hit with the back of my hand, now how is that possible if 'leftward body rotation puts a rightward rotation torque on the left wrist'? Part of the trick in a golf swing is making sure you're not collapsing the angle between your left arm and shoulders once it's set, but this is 100% wrong that a proper pivot won't square anything up. This pretty much goes against anything slicefixer talks about, and a lot of other great teachers on here, so if you have some examples within the context of a golf swing I'm all ears.


"Supination" and "pronation" is NOT "anatomical function outside the context of the golf swing". Of course, body rotation rotates the the clubface to the arc of the clubhead. So does left arm swing, assuming you let the upper arm roll from its ball and socket joint as it naturally will. Whatever clubface rotation has occured in the backswing from those two movements wil be equally reversed by any combination of those two moves in the downswing. That leaves wrist rotation (supination and pronation)...which is NOT the same as upper arm rotation. People much smarter than me can explain why counter-clockwise body rotation will put a clockwise torque on the golf shaft. But consider this....why has it traditionally been noted that a player with a so-called "closed" clubface at the top of the swing will need a stronger pivot with more body rotation to "hold off" the clubface from closing at impact? In any case, surely nobody would contend that the pivot will cause the left wrist to supinate. There is NO biomecahnical scientific support for that at all.

Not sure what this "Slicefixer" teaches, but I promise to fix any slice in 5 minutes or less, guaranteed. When you understand the mechanics and bio-mechanics of clubface rotation, relative to the arc of the clubhead, on an inclined plane, its pretty easy.

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#99 gators78

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:45 PM

Just ask around about slicefixer and see what comes up, there's a 118 page pinned thread at the top of the swing academy to start.

Edited by gators78, 29 March 2011 - 10:46 PM.

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#100 ChipDriver

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:50 PM

View PostSean2, on 29 March 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

View Posthoganfan924, on 29 March 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 01:50 PM, said:

Wether it is pivot stall, pivot brake, or whatever pivot action you prefer or want to call it, that energy still has to be transmitted to the arms, hands and golf club.

You (like many current instructors it seems to me) are misunderstanding conservation of momentum.  Would a trebuchet designer ever install a brake on the arm and brake it before the projectile is released?

Pivot braking/stall does not increase the speed of the clubhead or add any energy, it just allows the clubhead to overtake earlier.


Conservation of momentum aside, I think MANY instructors are overlooking the fact that BOTH body AND arms are invloved to some degree.
As I said before, wether you CALL it brake/stall of pivot doesnt really matter. We know the body slows down SLIGHTLY in certain segments transmitting SOMETHING to the club. Wether thats conscious or not doesn't really matter. If your body works perfectly and your arms do not know how to work than they must be trained independantly.It may feel to some as if the arms are doing NOTHING, that doesn't mean this really happens.
But if the lower body swings the club, and the arms/hands/club just go along for the ride, then what do they need to be trained to do?

The hands and arms are not completely passive and limp...they hold the club (hands) and form the triangle that stays in front of the body when rotating (arms).  The grip (as they say) is the most important part of the swing b/c the hands hold the club almost "pre set" for the impact as the arms whip through.  If the grip isn't precise; or the arms get behind the body - then impact will be imprecise.

They are not inactive...just less active compared to the body's action.

Edited by ChipDriver, 29 March 2011 - 10:52 PM.


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#101 jabrch

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 11:00 PM

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 28 March 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

What parts of your body are stronger?  Legs and hips or hands and arms?  Power is generated with the legs and hips.  When you learn to incorporate them better into your swing, you will hit it much further than you do now.


Suckers choice....

Power comes from all of the above.  The best hitters out there have a complete swing - using everything all at once...with great timing and consistent execution.
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#102 Cmartingolf

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 11:58 PM

View Postjabrch, on 29 March 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 28 March 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

What parts of your body are stronger?  Legs and hips or hands and arms?  Power is generated with the legs and hips.  When you learn to incorporate them better into your swing, you will hit it much further than you do now.


Suckers choice....

Power comes from all of the above.  The best hitters out there have a complete swing - using everything all at once...with great timing and consistent execution.

The main point of the thread: conscious roll to square the face: I'm a pretty good striker and I don't consciously think of squaring the face at all. I do, however, feel as though if I hold off the finish a bit I can cut it a wee bit and if I try and lean the shaft a bit more, I will draw in. Just personal feel. Conscious roll during impact tells me that there are some poor grips and perhaps to much "roll" going back.

On the distance/power bits...

IMO, most of the bad country club swings I see are not enough hands and arms and too much body.

The educating of the arms and hands is the most left out thing in golf. Nobody wants to take responsibility for learning the "intricate" motions. Juggling? Pretty intricate motion of the wrists/arm/hands and support from the body. Once you drop a bunch of balls, the hands "learn" how to anticipate and react and it all starts looking pretty good. Same thing for the golf swing.

HBG, you know you can stand on one foot and hit it farther than most of your club golfers or students. Why?

I can hit it 230 or 240 (two bills plus in the air and whatever the ground gives me) with my educated arms/hands and shoulder turn, standing on one foot. Not trying to brag, just sharing some stuff. With two feet on the ground and some pivot to help help drive the arms and hands (pp4) I can hit it 270-300; nothing to write home about. So my hip turn and ground force adds about 20% to my power equation.

With me, it's 80% arms/hands/shoulders and 20% legs and pivot thrust and I don't try and roll anything. I've learned how to do it, so I don't have to think about it. That's what I want for most of you guys.

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#103 Sean2

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 06:31 AM

View PostCmartingolf, on 29 March 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:

View Postjabrch, on 29 March 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 28 March 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

What parts of your body are stronger?  Legs and hips or hands and arms?  Power is generated with the legs and hips.  When you learn to incorporate them better into your swing, you will hit it much further than you do now.


Suckers choice....

Power comes from all of the above.  The best hitters out there have a complete swing - using everything all at once...with great timing and consistent execution.

The main point of the thread: conscious roll to square the face: I'm a pretty good striker and I don't consciously think of squaring the face at all. I do, however, feel as though if I hold off the finish a bit I can cut it a wee bit and if I try and lean the shaft a bit more, I will draw in. Just personal feel. Conscious roll during impact tells me that there are some poor grips and perhaps to much "roll" going back.

On the distance/power bits...

IMO, most of the bad country club swings I see are not enough hands and arms and too much body.

The educating of the arms and hands is the most left out thing in golf.
Nobody wants to take responsibility for learning the "intricate" motions. Juggling? Pretty intricate motion of the wrists/arm/hands and support from the body. Once you drop a bunch of balls, the hands "learn" how to anticipate and react and it all starts looking pretty good. Same thing for the golf swing.

HBG, you know you can stand on one foot and hit it farther than most of your club golfers or students. Why?

I can hit it 230 or 240 (two bills plus in the air and whatever the ground gives me) with my educated arms/hands and shoulder turn, standing on one foot. Not trying to brag, just sharing some stuff. With two feet on the ground and some pivot to help help drive the arms and hands (pp4) I can hit it 270-300; nothing to write home about. So my hip turn and ground force adds about 20% to my power equation.

With me, it's 80% arms/hands/shoulders and 20% legs and pivot thrust and I don't try and roll anything. I've learned how to do it, so I don't have to think about it. That's what I want for most of you guys.
That's me (the bolded part). And this is where I get very confused. I've been told by some pros to swing with the lower body and let the arm/hands/clubs go along for the ride. I've been told by other pros to swing with the shoulders. Neither sounded right to me, but what do I know, right?

Anyway, my frustration was building. I watched countless slow motion videos of the pros swinging the golf club. I watched the LPGA last week and saw how far they were hitting it. I say to myself, "Okay, I'm driving my hips, I'm letting the rest hang on, why no distance? I'm 6'5" and 210 pounds, have a wide arc." So then I try the shoulder/arms swing. Same result.

Alright I says, there has to be a better way. So I notice how the pros hands/arms really turn over through impact. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know. So I figure I'll fool around with that. Voila...I get more distance, along with some pulls. I don't know if it's a timing issue, that only a pro can do, or "flash speed" that someone mentioned earlier. But yesterday I hit a 250 yard drive when my normal drive is 220. I also hit six fairway for nine holes when I normally hit two.

I don't know. Is the swing a body thing? Is it an arm/hands thing? Is it both?

Edited by Sean2, 30 March 2011 - 06:32 AM.

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#104 ChipDriver

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 07:39 AM

View PostSean2, on 30 March 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

View PostCmartingolf, on 29 March 2011 - 11:58 PM, said:

View Postjabrch, on 29 March 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

View Posthbgpagolfpro, on 28 March 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

What parts of your body are stronger?  Legs and hips or hands and arms?  Power is generated with the legs and hips.  When you learn to incorporate them better into your swing, you will hit it much further than you do now.


Suckers choice....

Power comes from all of the above.  The best hitters out there have a complete swing - using everything all at once...with great timing and consistent execution.

The main point of the thread: conscious roll to square the face: I'm a pretty good striker and I don't consciously think of squaring the face at all. I do, however, feel as though if I hold off the finish a bit I can cut it a wee bit and if I try and lean the shaft a bit more, I will draw in. Just personal feel. Conscious roll during impact tells me that there are some poor grips and perhaps to much "roll" going back.

On the distance/power bits...

IMO, most of the bad country club swings I see are not enough hands and arms and too much body.

The educating of the arms and hands is the most left out thing in golf.
Nobody wants to take responsibility for learning the "intricate" motions. Juggling? Pretty intricate motion of the wrists/arm/hands and support from the body. Once you drop a bunch of balls, the hands "learn" how to anticipate and react and it all starts looking pretty good. Same thing for the golf swing.

HBG, you know you can stand on one foot and hit it farther than most of your club golfers or students. Why?

I can hit it 230 or 240 (two bills plus in the air and whatever the ground gives me) with my educated arms/hands and shoulder turn, standing on one foot. Not trying to brag, just sharing some stuff. With two feet on the ground and some pivot to help help drive the arms and hands (pp4) I can hit it 270-300; nothing to write home about. So my hip turn and ground force adds about 20% to my power equation.

With me, it's 80% arms/hands/shoulders and 20% legs and pivot thrust and I don't try and roll anything. I've learned how to do it, so I don't have to think about it. That's what I want for most of you guys.
That's me (the bolded part). And this is where I get very confused. I've been told by some pros to swing with the lower body and let the arm/hands/clubs go along for the ride. I've been told by other pros to swing with the shoulders. Neither sounded right to me, but what do I know, right?

Anyway, my frustration was building. I watched countless slow motion videos of the pros swinging the golf club. I watched the LPGA last week and saw how far they were hitting it. I say to myself, "Okay, I'm driving my hips, I'm letting the rest hang on, why no distance? I'm 6'5" and 210 pounds, have a wide arc." So then I try the shoulder/arms swing. Same result.

Alright I says, there has to be a better way. So I notice how the pros hands/arms really turn over through impact. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know. So I figure I'll fool around with that. Voila...I get more distance, along with some pulls. I don't know if it's a timing issue, that only a pro can do, or "flash speed" that someone mentioned earlier. But yesterday I hit a 250 yard drive when my normal drive is 220. I also hit six fairway for nine holes when I normally hit two.

I don't know. Is the swing a body thing? Is it an arm/hands thing? Is it both?

Pardon me for butting into Martin's reply...but I think Martin's post is PRICELESS in this thread.  He's a pro that's tried to quantify what works for him for us mere mortals/amateurs.  :-)

As he says - the answer is that it is both body and arms/hands.

On one leg (so no legs or hips) he hit it X distance (230 for him) with what I call "the triangle" of shoulders, chest, arms, wrists.  To Martin that's 80% of the swing.  Now add the legs - and you get  X + Y (20% more distance for Martin).  Pretty valid testimony IMO from a credible and accomplished source.    Your question poses the confusion that a lot of amateurs have when discussing the swing.  In another Golfwrx thread about  Hogan's hip turn - you'll see why I hate talking about hips/body.  It's b/c posters seem to think that the swing is either ALL HIPS/Body & no hands/arms OR  it is ALL HANDS/Body and no hips/body.   You'll go crazy thinking about it, and lose a season trying to figure it out.

Martin has confirmed (at least to me) that it's both.


My guess is that with more active arms/hands to affirmatively roll them - you are releasing the club (which I think is the rotation of the clubhead around the shaft (sort of like a pinball machine flipper...albeit slowly, not quickly).   You (and many other amateurs) have to do that b/c our natural mechanics are flawed.  In theory if you extend your arms through centrifugal force, the arms will naturally rotate.  My guess is that something in your mechanics retards that natural rotation.

So what?   If your compensation is to rotate your arms affirmatively - then you've solved the issue.   We're all in search of the "perfect mechanical swing" and truth is that we probably don't have enough time to devote to find it.  We ALL play with compensations.

As they say - it's not how, but how many.  :)

Sorry for butting in.

Edited by ChipDriver, 30 March 2011 - 07:42 AM.


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#105 mikpga

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:11 AM

Understanding how they work together...


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#106 Cmartingolf

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 09:16 AM

View PostSean2, on 30 March 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't know. Is the swing a body thing? Is it an arm/hands thing? Is it both?


The body doesn't hit anything. It can sure help.

View PostChipDriver, on 30 March 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:


As they say - it's not how, but how many.  :)

Sorry for butting in.

Indeed.

We all get wrapped up in perfect mechanics and these days everyone wants to look like Hunter Mahan. I've played enough golf with enough guys that can bury it and don't look like Hunter, they look more like Don Rickles.

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#107 russc

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:15 AM

View PostCmartingolf, on 30 March 2011 - 09:16 AM, said:

View PostSean2, on 30 March 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't know. Is the swing a body thing? Is it an arm/hands thing? Is it both?


The body doesn't hit anything. It can sure help.

View PostChipDriver, on 30 March 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:

As they say - it's not how, but how many.  :)

Sorry for butting in.

Indeed.

We all get wrapped up in perfect mechanics and these days everyone wants to look like Hunter Mahan. I've played enough golf with enough guys that can bury it and don't look like Hunter, they look more like Don Rickles.
Martin
You have me  a little confused ,which is unusual because your videos are among the clearest and best visual descriptions of  the golf swing available.
In your video "pivot thrust revisited "it seem clear that  the arms and hands were subservient to your pivot in the downswing.When you made your video for the "Golf Channel",it seemed that you expanded upon the exact same idea.The same idea is present in your videos on the correct use of the "Tour Striker".I do not see  how you can hit the" Tour Striker" consistently if you  have an incorrect pivot.Rolling the forearms seems to be a  very , very iffy way to hit the "Tour Striker"
Now in this post ,I am getting the impression that you want to encourage the hands and arms when you state that many of the bad swings that you see  have "not enough hands and arms and too much body"
I can not see how to reconcile your previous videos and this last statement.
The reason  why I mentioned Hunter Mahan is that his swing is among the most efficient  on the PGA Tour today and I was trying to contrast his swing to the swings of  Vijay and Phil.Over the decades there has been many very effective ball strikers who look a little odd until impact zone.That still does not diminish the use of Hunter,Ben Hogan or George Knudsen as a models .

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#108 hbgpagolfpro

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:22 AM

One thing I would add to this discussion is that MOST golfers hold onto the club too tightly.  This inhibits them from allowing the hands to work on there own in the swing.  Hands too tight usually means open club face at impact.

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#109 Legend McSniff

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:47 AM

Having eliminated the 'duck hooks' my miss is now a 'slider' which sets off a few degrees right and moves a little more in that direction. Its normally in play, and as a miss I can live with it but it kills my distance.

Clearly the clubface is open at impact.

I have never thought of a 'concious release' before but I've had a feeling for a while that i need to be more aggressive through the ball, particularly with the longer clubs.

Not sure how best to approach this without ruining a pretty reliable, if not overly powerful swing.

Maybe some kind of 9-3 drill with the toe pointing "skyward" at each end?

Sure dont want those duck hooks back though.

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#110 Cmartingolf

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 10:48 AM

View Postrussc, on 30 March 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

View PostCmartingolf, on 30 March 2011 - 09:16 AM, said:

View PostSean2, on 30 March 2011 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't know. Is the swing a body thing? Is it an arm/hands thing? Is it both?


The body doesn't hit anything. It can sure help.

View PostChipDriver, on 30 March 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:

As they say - it's not how, but how many.  :)

Sorry for butting in.

Indeed.

We all get wrapped up in perfect mechanics and these days everyone wants to look like Hunter Mahan. I've played enough golf with enough guys that can bury it and don't look like Hunter, they look more like Don Rickles.
Martin
You have me  a little confused ,which is unusual because your videos are among the clearest and best visual descriptions of  the golf swing available.
In your video "pivot thrust revisited "it seem clear that  the arms and hands were subservient to your pivot in the downswing.When you made your video for the "Golf Channel",it seemed that you expanded upon the exact same idea.The same idea is present in your videos on the correct use of the "Tour Striker".I do not see  how you can hit the" Tour Striker" consistently if you  have an incorrect pivot.Rolling the forearms seems to be a  very , very iffy way to hit the "Tour Striker"
Now in this post ,I am getting the impression that you want to encourage the hands and arms when you state that many of the bad swings that you see  have "not enough hands and arms and too much body"
I can not see how to reconcile your previous videos and this last statement.
The reason  why I mentioned Hunter Mahan is that his swing is among the most efficient  on the PGA Tour today and I was trying to contrast his swing to the swings of  Vijay and Phil.Over the decades there has been many very effective ball strikers who look a little odd until impact zone.That still does not diminish the use of Hunter,Ben Hogan or George Knudsen as a models .

Russ,

I said, "in most country club swings..."

I'm a believer in using and understanding the benefits of the pivot. In Hunter's swing, his pivot based swing is only effective because he knows how to use his arms and hands. Hunter at 80%, on one foot, would still win Club Championships but he couldn't compete at a higher level. He needs the other 20%. Club golfers would do amazingly well IF they learned HOW to use their arms and hands. I'm not saying be ARMSY OR HANDSY or FLIPPY. I'm saying it is a very specific process that is TGM based, IMO.

I can still hit the Tour Striker correctly off of one foot with about 80% of my power/distance because in my goofy one footed swing, the moment of impact is sound; flat left wrist, lag, shaft lean, downward strike, etc. The moment after looks like I stubbed my toe in the dark as I try not to fall down.

Am I going to show this in a video promoting the club? No, people would think I'm nuts, but it is a very important part of the SWING as a whole.

I will do a video about this and post it;) It will clarify things and keep my fingers from getting sore typing rebuttals:)




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#111 TB07

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 02:13 PM

View PostDBreslin417, on 29 March 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

View Postslicer2scratch, on 29 March 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

It is relative to what your body is doing specifically and what your arms are doing currently.

GENERALLY speaking MOST people need to train the arms to get down and in front of the body more in the downswing. Then they need a flattish lead wrist and bent trail wrist at impact. Then ultimately the forearms rotate.

I'm just curious, but when you say getting the arms in front you are referring to lag, correct?  If so, isn't lag a by-product of a proper pivot?


No I am not referring to lag. Lag is the angle between the the arms and club. You can have good lag and if the arms are inhibited by the body (i.e. STUCK) you are not going to strike the ball as solid as you can.

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#112 TB07

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 02:17 PM

As cmartin said MOST people OVER use the body. I could take this a step further and say they use the body in the wrong places, partly due to the fact that they havent a clue on how to deliver the blow with their arms and hands.

I also see at times people JUST trying to flip the club or ROLL the forearms. Without much use of the body. Either way they both parts need to work to some degree.

This notion that Hunter Mahan or other better players dont use their arms at all is silly IMO. They might feel as if they do nothing with their arms, but thats a different story.

Sean,

To clear this up for you, your pivot has to work and carry you into a downswing position in which then your arms can deliver the blow.
If both body and arms are not already trained, they need to be so they can then work together.

Edited by slicer2scratch, 30 March 2011 - 02:23 PM.


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#113 Sean2

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:35 PM

View Postslicer2scratch, on 30 March 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

As cmartin said MOST people OVER use the body. I could take this a step further and say they use the body in the wrong places, partly due to the fact that they havent a clue on how to deliver the blow with their arms and hands.

I also see at times people JUST trying to flip the club or ROLL the forearms. Without much use of the body. Either way they both parts need to work to some degree.

This notion that Hunter Mahan or other better players dont use their arms at all is silly IMO. They might feel as if they do nothing with their arms, but thats a different story.

Sean,

To clear this up for you, your pivot has to work and carry you into a downswing position in which then your arms can deliver the blow.
If both body and arms are not already trained, they need to be so they can then work together.
I saw/felt an inkling of this at the range today. If I try to kill the ball I get out of sync. If I trust the swing I hit it much more solidly.

By the way gentlemen, the more I play this game the dumber I feel, not to mention more inept. But, there is some part of me that thinks I'm making this more complicated than it has to be.
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#114 John Novosel

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:21 AM

[/quote]
I saw/felt an inkling of this at the range today. If I try to kill the ball I get out of sync. If I trust the swing I hit it much more solidly.

By the way gentlemen, the more I play this game the dumber I feel, not to mention more inept. But, there is some part of me that thinks I'm making this more complicated than it has to be.
[/quote]

Sean,

If you want the easiest way to learn (experience-feel) this, here it is:

[size="2"]<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vDnNShaMFn0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>[/size]

[size="2"]Ernest Jones put it the best:[/size]

[size="2"][size="2"]"learning by feel is the only way to learn the swing so that you will make steady and permanent progress as a golfer.<o:p></o:p>[/size]

[size="2"]No one else, not even the finest teacher in the world can learn the feel of the swing for you. Only you can do that."[/size]<o:p></o:p>

[size="2"]J[/size]


[/size]


24

#115 John Novosel

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 07:02 AM

[/quote]
I saw/felt an inkling of this at the range today. If I try to kill the ball I get out of sync. If I trust the swing I hit it much more solidly.

By the way gentlemen, the more I play this game the dumber I feel, not to mention more inept. But, there is some part of me that thinks I'm making this more complicated than it has to be.
[/quote]

Sean,

forgot to add Jr's qualifications - 6'0"  - 165 lbs - best drive in remax - 402.  clubhead speed over 140mph - ball speed - over 195mph - see his swing and workout here:

[url="http://www.hititlonger.com/blog/article/proof-that-size-means-little-in-long-drive/"]http://www.hititlong...-in-long-drive/[/url]

J


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#116 Sean2

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:21 AM

Thanks John!
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#117 whatwhatwhat

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:21 PM

no no no, believe me Ive made a thread like this before and did alot of research, its way too hard to time,  and if you think touring pro,s do this under excruciating pressure you are simply deluded. Yes some do try and save shots with a flip now and then(phil) but in a good swing this is NOT a concious move, they do rotate but not conciously!!!!

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#118 Sean2

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:47 PM

View Postwhatwhatwhat, on 31 March 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

no no no, believe me Ive made a thread like this before and did alot of research, its way too hard to time,  and if you think touring pro,s do this under excruciating pressure you are simply deluded. Yes some do try and save shots with a flip now and then(phil) but in a good swing this is NOT a concious move, they do rotate but not conciously!!!!
I was on the range today and while I saw more distance I just could not get comfortable consciously rotating my hands/forearms through the ball. I played nine and just swing the club with my lower body and let the arms/hands/club go a long for the ride. Was I satisfied with that? Not completely, but there is less to think about, and my shots are more consistent.
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#119 whatwhatwhat

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 04:56 PM

View PostSean2, on 31 March 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

View Postwhatwhatwhat, on 31 March 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

no no no, believe me Ive made a thread like this before and did alot of research, its way too hard to time,  and if you think touring pro,s do this under excruciating pressure you are simply deluded. Yes some do try and save shots with a flip now and then(phil) but in a good swing this is NOT a concious move, they do rotate but not conciously!!!!
I was on the range today and while I saw more distance I just could not get comfortable consciously rotating my hands/forearms through the ball. I played nine and just swing the club with my lower body and let the arms/hands/club go a long for the ride. Was I satisfied with that? Not completely, but there is less to think about, and my shots are more consistent.

Believe me Ive took it to the course and it just cant be done(cant imagine doing it under pressure) and I can play this game pretty decently, just work on fundementals and rhythm, Ive never seen a plus 8 handicaaper with good rythm and tempo ever, its pretty much what golf is all about but most dont understand it or want to understand it. Good luck.

Edited by whatwhatwhat, 31 March 2011 - 04:58 PM.


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#120 ChipDriver

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:04 PM

View PostSean2, on 31 March 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

View Postwhatwhatwhat, on 31 March 2011 - 04:21 PM, said:

no no no, believe me Ive made a thread like this before and did alot of research, its way too hard to time,  and if you think touring pro,s do this under excruciating pressure you are simply deluded. Yes some do try and save shots with a flip now and then(phil) but in a good swing this is NOT a concious move, they do rotate but not conciously!!!!
I was on the range today and while I saw more distance I just could not get comfortable consciously rotating my hands/forearms through the ball. I played nine and just swing the club with my lower body and let the arms/hands/club go a long for the ride. Was I satisfied with that? Not completely, but there is less to think about, and my shots are more consistent.

Try this:  focus on the left forearm.

FEEL like you are slowly rolingl the left forearm through impact - start rolling from the top of the swing until after impact.

It's a fairly slow but consistent roll.  It is not a fast "flip the face shut" at impact.  Just a slooooow rolll - so at impact the face is relatively square.  Truth is that what you're probably doing in your present swing is holding the face open.  Once you start to slowly roll the forearm...as long as you start it, it will encourage a more natural release.


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