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Lie angles/Lofts on Forged clubs


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#1 Smokey1226

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 12:46 AM

I've had my same set of Mizuno MP-32's for 5+ years now and have played a ton of rounds and hours and hours of range time. How much can the club faces change over a period of time?

I am taking my irons in this week to get them checked and adjusted if needed. It just seems like im hitting the ball shorter, which made me think my lofts are off? maybe its just my head


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#2 cb_golfer

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:10 AM

I have my 33s adjusted about twice a year. More if you hit off mats/hardpan or have a tendency to hit behind the ball.



#3 m5power

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:10 AM

I just bought a used set of forged irons that seemed pretty clean meaning they were not used that much. First range session with them had me hitting shorter and higher than usual. Took it to a clubmaker and lo and behold irons 7-pw were 2 degs weaker than normal. Now I am going to be anal about checking them 2x a year
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#4 Back9

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:51 AM

I'm not a clubmaker but I do adjust my own and some friends lies and lofts on occasion.  Some clubs are just so easy to bend it is hard to believe that they wouldn't bend a little over time, especially if you hit heavy off of harder surfaces/mats.  My home course is quite soft and doesn't effect the clubs much but in the offseason and early season I hit off of mats a lot and the lies and lofts can definiately move around some.

In regards to how often you should check your specs for movement, I don't think there is one correct answer.  If you play with relatively soft clubs on relatively firm surfaces, checking at the beginning and middle of each season would be reasonable.  If you find that they moved significantly, you may want to check more frequently, if they didn't move, you wouldn't have to check again until the next year.  If you play with relatively hard irons like PINGs or TM cast, you probably could have them checked once when you get them to make sure they are at your desired specs and again in 2-5 years (if you happen to still have and play them).

#5 Smokey1226

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 11:32 AM

View PostBack9, on 01 March 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

I'm not a clubmaker but I do adjust my own and some friends lies and lofts on occasion.  Some clubs are just so easy to bend it is hard to believe that they wouldn't bend a little over time, especially if you hit heavy off of harder surfaces/mats.  My home course is quite soft and doesn't effect the clubs much but in the offseason and early season I hit off of mats a lot and the lies and lofts can definiately move around some.

In regards to how often you should check your specs for movement, I don't think there is one correct answer.  If you play with relatively soft clubs on relatively firm surfaces, checking at the beginning and middle of each season would be reasonable.  If you find that they moved significantly, you may want to check more frequently, if they didn't move, you wouldn't have to check again until the next year.  If you play with relatively hard irons like PINGs or TM cast, you probably could have them checked once when you get them to make sure they are at your desired specs and again in 2-5 years (if you happen to still have and play them).
With just an estimated guess, how much could a soft forged club move? A few degrees? A degree at most? Im just trying to understand it all. I play a lot of indoor mats here over the winter (i hate doing it) but i have too.


#6 drck1000

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 01:06 PM

For those who check and adjust their lofts regularly, do you normally find that the lofts are weaker or stronger than spec?

I haven't had forged irons in a while. But I had assumed that the lofts would get stronger from the constant pounding of the leading edge. I just got a set of Wilson FG-17 that an uncle had stored away. It would be primarily a set just to play around on the range and maybe to test out on a par 3 course. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. Haha.

#7 hbear

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 02:25 PM

2x a year for me
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#8 chefed

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 10:48 PM

lie and loft 006.jpg IT seems that we like to hit the same irons on the driving range those have a tendency to bend. Check your own lofts and lies with minimal expenses.lie and loft 008.jpg

#9 whatshannenin

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 12:22 AM

View Postchefed, on 02 March 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Attachment lie and loft 006.jpgIT seems that we like to hit the same irons on the driving range those have a tendency to bend. Check your own lofts and lies with minimal expenses.Attachment lie and loft 008.jpg

How accurate have you tested this to be?  Have you compared to a gauge or loft/lie machine?

#10 joemedi85

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 12:42 AM

Do know how accurate this would be as the shaft does get thinker...

View Postchefed, on 02 March 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Attachment lie and loft 006.jpgIT seems that we like to hit the same irons on the driving range those have a tendency to bend. Check your own lofts and lies with minimal expenses.Attachment lie and loft 008.jpg


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#11 ben w

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 11:12 AM

I have most of my irons lofted weaker, for example my PW is 49 degrees (originally 48). I went and had it checked after 6 mos of play and it was the same.
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#12 Sweet

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 02:51 PM

generally speaking you are going to see more of a change in lie than loft over time

#13 Pepperturbo

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 02:54 PM

I agree with @cb_golfer...except I play a different forged club. :)

Edited by Pepperturbo, 03 March 2011 - 02:55 PM.

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#14 puttingmatt

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 03:48 PM

I usually have them checked and adjusted, TWICE A YEAR,
to my specs. I play three to four times a week, and travel in the
winter.
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#15 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 04:12 PM

How much does this usually cost to have your loft and lie checked and adjusted at a retailer like Golfsmith. Lets say for 8 clubs  4 - gw

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#16 TKing

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 05:12 PM

I check my own, but after bending them to start with where I want them, I have never had to rebend one.  I've completely worn the faces out on some clubs included in this that didn't move.  I never hit off of mats, so there is some possiblility that has something to do with it.

Some of my backup sets in waiting look like they have never hit a ball, but when checking the lofts and lies, not one club was right.  I have two sets with the 1, 2, and 3 irons that have never hit a ball, and all six of those clubs were within one degree of having the same loft.  The first time I hit one of the 1 irons, I couldn't figure out why the ball didn't go much farther than the 3 iron before I bought the machine.  It turned out they were all about 17 degrees.

Edited by TKing, 03 March 2011 - 05:26 PM.


#17 Pepperturbo

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 05:14 PM

I can't tell anyone what it costs for work done though Golfsmith.  What I will say is though, NEVER leave clubs at a mass retailer like that.  I learned sometime back my clubs were leaving the store going home with people, to a practice range after being sent to another unknown club repair shop.  That said, my guy recently charged me $90.
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#18 chefed

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:54 PM

I think that my system is very accurate, I compared measurements with a machine, as well as measuring new clubs with known lofts and lies.
It is actually faster and can be done from the back of a truck. But try it, you will like it. It is not perfect for woods or some exotic metals, but covers everything else.
Maybe the level on the shaft could be shorter .
Glad I could share.

#19 KUJayhawks

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:55 PM

View PostPepperturbo, on 03 March 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

I can't tell anyone what it costs for work done though Golfsmith.  What I will say is though, NEVER leave clubs at a mass retailer like that.  I learned sometime back my clubs were leaving the store going home with people, to a practice range after being sent to another unknown club repair shop.  That said, my guy recently charged me $90.

$90 seems pretty crazy to me.  I'm pretty sure its like $4-5/club at Golfsmith.  I work at GS and if anyone did anything like that they'd be fired immediately.  I guess it depends on the management but I cant see that happening too often, in fact, I 'd think it would happen more often at a smaller shop with less rules.  Depending on how busy they are, they might be able to do it right there for you.  It should only take them 15-20 minutes.

#20 whatshannenin

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 02:11 AM

View PostKUJayhawks, on 03 March 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

View PostPepperturbo, on 03 March 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

I can't tell anyone what it costs for work done though Golfsmith.  What I will say is though, NEVER leave clubs at a mass retailer like that.  I learned sometime back my clubs were leaving the store going home with people, to a practice range after being sent to another unknown club repair shop.  That said, my guy recently charged me $90.


$90 seems pretty crazy to me. I'm pretty sure its like $4-5/club at Golfsmith.  I work at GS and if anyone did anything like that they'd be fired immediately.  I guess it depends on the management but I cant see that happening too often, in fact, I 'd think it would happen more often at a smaller shop with less rules.  Depending on how busy they are, they might be able to do it right there for you.  It should only take them 15-20 minutes.

$90 does seem high but not if it's done right.  If you were to pay $90 for a bending service at Golfsmith you are not getting your money's worth as they use a crappy Golfmechanix loft and lie machine.  A good clubmaker with a Mitchell, Fourteen or True Blue should be able to do this service in an hour or so.  A good clubmaker will also have a gauge to know the variance of his machine and some might even bend and then confirm on a gauge.  Also a good clubmaker will take his time and mask the hosel/neck with some sort of protection to minimize bending marks.  Anybody with a loft/lie machine can bend a club, but to do it right so there is no damage is the key.  You have to realize that a good loft and lie machine is $700-1000+, and you are paying for their time and time on their expensive machine.  I'd say that $50-60 is a pretty fair amount with $90 be a lot. If that is too much then go invest in a good machine and do it yourself is my advice.  Loft and lies are very important in setup, solid contact and ballflight.  Some guys on the PGA Tour get their lofts check every week or 2 weeks.


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#21 Pepperturbo

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 11:03 AM

View Postwhatshannenin, on 04 March 2011 - 02:11 AM, said:

[$90 does seem high but not if it's done right.  If you were to pay $90 for a bending service at Golfsmith you are not getting your money's worth as they use a crappy Golfmechanix loft and lie machine.  A good clubmaker with a Mitchell, Fourteen or True Blue should be able to do this service in an hour or so.  A good clubmaker will also have a gauge to know the variance of his machine and some might even bend and then confirm on a gauge.  Also a good clubmaker will take his time and mask the hosel/neck with some sort of protection to minimize bending marks.  Anybody with a loft/lie machine can bend a club, but to do it right so there is no damage is the key.  You have to realize that a good loft and lie machine is $700-1000+, and you are paying for their time and time on their expensive machine.  I'd say that $50-60 is a pretty fair amount with $90 be a lot. If that is too much then go invest in a good machine and do it yourself is my advice.  Loft and lies are very important in setup, solid contact and ballflight.  Some guys on the PGA Tour get their lofts check every week or 2 weeks.

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#22 golfbum9

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 11:24 AM

View Postcb_golfer, on 01 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

I have my 33s adjusted about twice a year. More if you hit off mats/hardpan or have a tendency to hit behind the ball.
Same.

It depends on how much you play though. Most would be just fine doing so once a season.

#23 TheSecondZ

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:13 AM

The amount it moves really depends on how steep you come into the ball, how many balls you've hit, and whether your range is mats or grass, among other factors. In 5+ years, the lofts and lies could've changed significantly. The loss in distance is almost definitely do to them being bent out of shape. Check lies at least at the beginning of each season. More if you play a lot or need your equipment to be precise for tournaments and such.
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Posted 05 March 2011 - 11:46 AM

Whatshannenin makes a great point.  What gets me is when those GolfMechanix machines are passed off as Scotland machines.  The old Scotlands are good, but the ones that GM made (or whatever they called themselves before they were GM) suck.

To the OP, I play a couple different kinds of Mizunos and have seen them change a degree or so at most after 6 months of normal use.  I suppose if you didn't pay attention  for a couple years, you could go pretty much all over the place.
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#25 cardia10

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 12:17 PM

I have found Mitchell machines to vary from 1-3 degrees from other Mitchell machines. I only trust true gauges, but then again, I am no pro, so it probably doesn't matter that much to me anyway.


#26 enduro

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 02:44 PM

I agree, just because a shop has a Mitchell bending machine  doesn't necessarily mean the measurements will be more accurate. I've had clubs bent at a shop  and then rechecked at a different shop( both used Mitchells) and have gotten different readings on lie by as much as 2 degrees.

Best bet is to the always use same  clubmaker to check and bend clubs if you want consistent results.
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#27 professor_doom

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 10:02 PM

View Postchefed, on 02 March 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Attachment lie and loft 006.jpgIT seems that we like to hit the same irons on the driving range those have a tendency to bend. Check your own lofts and lies with minimal expenses.Attachment lie and loft 008.jpg

Very, very clever method.  I applaud you, and will likely do something similar to check my own club's specs from here on out.  Using the straight final step of the shaft should provide the most accurate reference.

There's no doubt in my mind that even the scale on high-end Mitchell machine will get out of whack if you use it enough.  All machines have some amount of play built in, and when you're applying enough force to bend steel, you'll inevitably wind up, well, bending steel--the loft/lie machine's steel components, that is.  The Earth's gravity, on the other hand, is a pretty trustworthy reference and hasn't exactly been known to fluctuate over time.

Bubble levels are pretty accurate.  For example, Empire Level's "True Blue" line is rated at 0.0005" vertical inches per horizontal inch, equivalent to about .0286 degrees.  The limits on inclinometers are generally limits of precision, not accuracy--your limits are how close together the graduations are spaced and your ability to see the indication.  An accuracy of well within 1 degree would not be unreasonable to expect, even from a cheap analog inclinometer.  High-end engineering grade digital inclinometers can be rated as accurate as 0.01 degrees.

Similar principles and tools are used in surveying--if you're surveying an east-west line a mile long and you're off from a perfect east-west line by .25 degrees, you'll be off by 23 feet in the north-south direction.  This would add up to more than a mile along a 300 mile stretch of state border.  Clearly, property lines are surveyed much, much more accurately than that, since property lines can be demarcated to under an inch if needed

My point is that the level/angle finder method is entirely valid, and should be AT LEAST as accurate as the built-in analog scale on a Mitchell machine.  Some people have made very good points:  "A good clubmaker will also have a gauge to know the variance of his  machine and some might even bend and then confirm on a gauge." " I have found Mitchell machines to vary from 1-3 degrees from other Mitchell machines. I only trust true gauges"   "just because a shop has a Mitchell bending machine  doesn't necessarily mean the measurements will be more accurate."

I do believe that lie and loft angles on forged clubs drift over time.  Given how easily they are bent in a shop and the magnitude of forces that can arise at impact, it's inevitable.  However, it's entirely possible that the loft and line changes "observed" in the irons over short periods are actually inaccuracies in the loft/lie machine!  Unless you're seeing actual performance inconsistencies, don't worry about it.

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 10:39 AM

View Postenduro, on 05 March 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

I agree, just because a shop has a Mitchell bending machine  doesn't necessarily mean the measurements will be more accurate. I've had clubs bent at a shop  and then rechecked at a different shop( both used Mitchells) and have gotten different readings on lie by as much as 2 degrees.

Best bet is to the always use same  clubmaker to check and bend clubs if you want consistent results.


this is more than likely due to the fact that each person did not place the club in the machine the same way...you can get alot of variance by mis-aligning the club. another reason to find someone you trust and stick with them...if you are always going to the same place you have alot better odds of getting the same results




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