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sharpie lie angle test


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#1 swing the clubhead!

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:00 PM

:good: i wonder if anyone could give me some advice.
my ballstriking has been a little erratic lately so i deceided to test my lie angles .i marked my balls with a vertical line with a sharpie pen. the results were not good !
short irons -impact was on the heel but the pen line was vertical.ball flight starting left of target.
middle irons-pretty much centre impact pen line vertical.ball flight a nice draw
long irons and woods-towards the toe pen line vertical.ball flight starting right of target
does it make sense to have different lie angles depending on ballflight or uniform lie angles throughout the whole set?
any help would be more than welcome!!


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#2 muxi87

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 04:04 PM

If the Sharpie line was vertical on the face, that means the lie angle is correct theoretically...

The Sharpie mark would "tilt" one way or the other if the lie angle was wrong...

#3 bppry

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:28 PM

Think maybe you should try a different method to check your lie angles. Try putting black electrical tape on your sole and hit off a lie board, plastic impact board. If that is not an option use masking tape on the sole of the club. Take the sharpie and color the tape. Hit off a mat and where the marker is gone is your impact. If it is not center of the sole an adjustment is needed. If you are having someone else adjust the lies they will normally do this with you for just the adjusting charge.

#4 hitsalittle

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:47 PM

View Postbppry, on 14 February 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Think maybe you should try a different method to check your lie angles. Try putting black electrical tape on your sole and hit off a lie board, plastic impact board. If that is not an option use masking tape on the sole of the club. Take the sharpie and color the tape. Hit off a mat and where the marker is gone is your impact. If it is not center of the sole an adjustment is needed. If you are having someone else adjust the lies they will normally do this with you for just the adjusting charge.

I actually think the black line on a ball method is more accurate - if I went by lie board alone, I would be playing clubs 3 or more degrees more upright than I should

#5 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:53 PM

View Postbppry, on 14 February 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Think maybe you should try a different method to check your lie angles. Try putting black electrical tape on your sole and hit off a lie board, plastic impact board. If that is not an option use masking tape on the sole of the club. Take the sharpie and color the tape. Hit off a mat and where the marker is gone is your impact. If it is not center of the sole an adjustment is needed. If you are having someone else adjust the lies they will normally do this with you for just the adjusting charge.

+1 for that

You might use a large plywood plate with space enough for you and the ball (same level)
It want hurt your irons. (use painter masking tape with whiteboard pen colour for the sole)

Measure the score lines wide, and find the mid point. -  MARK IT on the face
- If Contact to the ground is made at the centre  of the sole (your mark) lie angle is perfect
- If contact is made 1/4 inch against the toe, move lie angle 1 degree upright.
- 1/2 inch against the toe is 2* upright.
- 1/4 against heel side means they should be 1* flat
- 1/2 from center against heel side means 2* flat

There is nothing more to it - Never mind where they are, take they to where they belongs.
Play 3-5-7-9 and make your lie angle slope, then adjust all

Edited by Howard Jones, 14 February 2011 - 06:06 PM.


#6 Jc0

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:58 PM

If all the lines were vertical wouldn't this be more of a length problem than a lie problem.  Sounds like you need slightly longer long iron and slightly shorter short irons.

#7 Howard Jones

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:08 PM

Looking at face marks you are right, but the method might cheat, so use face tape to find club length, not ball marks

- If he comes inside out ball mark will be toe side on face, telling irons is to short.  If he comes outside in they will be heel side, so don't use marks on the ball, use face tape
Marks on the ball ( a cross north to south  - east to west  ) is useful on driver lie angles only, in combination with face tape for length

Edited by Howard Jones, 14 February 2011 - 06:13 PM.


#8 golfpros1

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:03 AM

I'm lost here.  I don't understand this method to determine club fittings, as well as it indicating how you swing the club.  Can someone decode this?

#9 friggingruven

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:53 PM

Pretend that the "crude" drawing below is the sole of your club:

heel_______________toe

Now cover the sole with masking tape and use a dry erase marker (whiteboard) to color the tape. Then hit some balls....

The vertical marks on the "ugly" drawings below are where the dry erase marker gets worn away from the club hitting the ground when you contact the ball.

If the vertical marks are in the middle, the lie of the club is correct:

heel_______||_______toe


Markings towards the heel indicate a lie angle that is too upright and needs to be bent flatter

heel___||___________toe


Markings towards the toe indicate a lie angle that is too flat and needs to be bent upright

heel___________||___toe


This method in no way indicates where you contacted the ball on the face of the club, and does not help  much in determining if your clubs are the proper length. Also using a lie hitting board will give better definition to where the sole contacts the ground.

Edited by friggingruven, 14 April 2012 - 02:57 PM.

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#10 friggingruven

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:59 PM

View PostJc0, on 14 February 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

If all the lines were vertical wouldn't this be more of a length problem than a lie problem.  Sounds like you need slightly longer long iron and slightly shorter short irons.

Agreed +1

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#11 DaveLeeNC

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

View Postfriggingruven, on 14 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 14 February 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

If all the lines were vertical wouldn't this be more of a length problem than a lie problem.  Sounds like you need slightly longer long iron and slightly shorter short irons.

Agreed +1

IMHO, length vs. lie is a relationship that varies golfer to golfer. If your clubs are too flat you can make them more upright by bending or you can just make them longer. Neither is 'right' - lots of other trade-offs as well.

dave




#12 golfpros1

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 05:34 PM

View Postfriggingruven, on 14 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Pretend that the "crude" drawing below is the sole of your club:

heel_______________toe

Now cover the sole with masking tape and use a dry erase marker (whiteboard) to color the tape. Then hit some balls....

The vertical marks on the "ugly" drawings below are where the dry erase marker gets worn away from the club hitting the ground when you contact the ball.

If the vertical marks are in the middle, the lie of the club is correct:

heel_______||_______toe


Markings towards the heel indicate a lie angle that is too upright and needs to be bent flatter

heel___||___________toe


Markings towards the toe indicate a lie angle that is too flat and needs to be bent upright

heel___________||___toe


This method in no way indicates where you contacted the ball on the face of the club, and does not help  much in determining if your clubs are the proper length. Also using a lie hitting board will give better definition to where the sole contacts the ground.



oh ok.  the whole vertical line talk was throwing me off.  I thought something else was going on.

#13 Awalkspoiled

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 09:48 PM

View Postswing the clubhead!, on 14 February 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

:good: i wonder if anyone could give me some advice.
my ballstriking has been a little erratic lately so i deceided to test my lie angles .i marked my balls with a vertical line with a sharpie pen. the results were not good !
short irons -impact was on the heel but the pen line was vertical.ball flight starting left of target.
middle irons-pretty much centre impact pen line vertical.ball flight a nice draw
long irons and woods-towards the toe pen line vertical.ball flight starting right of target
does it make sense to have different lie angles depending on ballflight or uniform lie angles throughout the whole set?
any help would be more than welcome!!

The method you're using is an effective addition to lie-board tests, and especially valuable because it allows you to get real-world information while taking a divot, which you can't do with a lie-board. The lie-board will give you additional information so they complement each other.

The fact that the line is vertical on the face indicates that the lie is correct, GIVEN YOUR CURRENT SETUP TO THE BALL. However, your setup to the ball, possibly in combination with your clublength, is off.

The first thing to do is to see what happens if you just move away from the ball a bit with your short irons (this is a little adjustment - an inch would be a lot to move). if the flight straightens out and the sharpie line remains vertical, you're done there. If the pull gets worse and/or the line starts pointing up and out toward the toe, the clubs may be too long or too upright or both. If you do a lie-board test and find the sole impact is tioward the heel then that would confirm that as well. It's a little unusual to have heel impact with an over-the top move - usually that will cause a toe-miss, but it's not unheard of.

To answer your general question, lie angle should usually become progressively flatter as the clubs get longer through the set, although most modern drivers have a very upright lie, which creates a mild draw bias which most golfers like (drawers of the ball struggle with it of course)
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#14 TheNonnanJuggernaught

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:44 AM

In my experience fitting on a lie board is worthless.  I have had the best results when being fit for the lie of my clubs by ball contact spot of the face.  Get some impact tape and find out that way.  Toe marks mean you need to go flat, heel means you need to go upright.

I am no club fitter, but I have been fit by the best, and this is how they do it.

#15 Manz60

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

its all about ball flight....


#16 HoosierMizuno

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

View PostTheNonnanJuggernaught, on 15 April 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

In my experience fitting on a lie board is worthless.  I have had the best results when being fit for the lie of my clubs by ball contact spot of the face.  Get some impact tape and find out that way.  Toe marks mean you need to go flat, heel means you need to go upright.

I am no club fitter, but I have been fit by the best, and this is how they do it.

can someone verify this. i was under impression it was the opposite.

i have ordered clubs with the specs i've always used +1/2 and 2* upright but i also have improved my swing and want to double check my lie angle. lie boards seem to throw some off as i've heard some won't make the proper descending blow into lie board. i was going to use the line on ball and also impact tape.

the main reason i'm wanting to check this is that i've also learned that adding length effectively increases lie angle. i can't remember if i was recommended more upright lie angle based on standard length or was fitted after having the additional length. i read that for every 1/2" it increases lie angle by 2*

Edited by HoosierMizuno, 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM.

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#17 CHARGERS

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

Sharpie is the way to go, the lie board can influence the club at impact and your swing sometimes. some players sweep the ball and its tough to get accurate/clean readings.
PS. You can also use a normal pen in a pinch

#18 ERdiesel

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostHoosierMizuno, on 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

the main reason i'm wanting to check this is that i've also learned that adding length effectively increases lie angle. i can't remember if i was recommended more upright lie angle based on standard length or was fitted after having the additional length. i read that for every 1/2" it increases lie angle by 2*


A 1/2" increase in length will effectively make your club 1* more upright assuming no change to any other variable such as how you setup to the ball.

#19 ERdiesel

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:28 PM

View PostCHARGERS, on 12 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Sharpie is the way to go, the lie board can influence the club at impact and your swing sometimes. some players sweep the ball and its tough to get accurate/clean readings.
PS. You can also use a normal pen in a pinch


Whereas I agree with you regarding sharpie is the way to go, your other statement about the lie board being able to influence the club at impact makes zero sense............considering you hit the ball first, than ground......or in this case the lie board a few inches in front of the ball and AFTER actual impact with the ball.  Well unless of course you duff it.  Or you were referring to the psychological effect of hitting a ball off of a lie board versus just mat or grass affecting the way someone swings.  Otherwise, a lie board only shows where the sole contacts the ground after impact and not during.  Hence, the sharpie test is the way to go, it shows how you contact the ball at impact.

#20 5 O'Clock Charlie

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

Don't see anyone talking about path.  This has an effect on where your marks are on the sole.  ie (over the top, or under the plane).
I guess what I'm saying is that you can take a club that has marks on the toe, make it more upright and if the player comes over the top and casts, they are still going to have marks out towards the toe.  They may not need more upright clubs.

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#21 theonlybfc

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:58 PM

Some good things to try, thanks for the suggestions.

#22 scunny

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:32 AM

The important thing to remember is that lie angle influences direction through a compound angle know as face plane tilt. This means that even with a square ball to target line leading edge the centre of club too upright/flat will be pointing offline and create accuracy issues. As a compound angle the greater the loft the greater the effect lie angle will have(Use a magnetic protracter in the centre of the face to see it happen) Heel/Toe marks on sole tape can help diagnose wether the club has returned to the ideal impact position but has lead to the myth that heel/toe contacts close/open the blade. With a 5mm board of perpex and the fact that the club may strike the board before or after the ball they can be very confusing. The face tape/sharpie method negates this but requires experience to diagnose well and can often confuse as the customer starts to just look at how centred the strike is. The tradiitonal form of lie grading(1* upright as the club becomes 1/2" shorter) is now becoming more outdated and golfers are better to have each lie specifically altered within their set to allow for the correct amount of shaft bow, the starting direction they prefer and the subsequent curvature. At the PGA in the UK we are educating that the ball flight will always override the lie tape

#23 reg1900

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

If you hit the ball of the toe with a vertical sharpie line it means you are more than likely making an over the top swing. Everything you had said indicates the lie angle is fine but you have other swing issues.

#24 reg1900

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 10:51 AM

View PostHoosierMizuno, on 12 December 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostTheNonnanJuggernaught, on 15 April 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

In my experience fitting on a lie board is worthless.  I have had the best results when being fit for the lie of my clubs by ball contact spot of the face.  Get some impact tape and find out that way.  Toe marks mean you need to go flat, heel means you need to go upright.

I am no club fitter, but I have been fit by the best, and this is how they do it.

can someone verify this. i was under impression it was the opposite.

i have ordered clubs with the specs i've always used +1/2 and 2* upright but i also have improved my swing and want to double check my lie angle. lie boards seem to throw some off as i've heard some won't make the proper descending blow into lie board. i was going to use the line on ball and also impact tape.

the main reason i'm wanting to check this is that i've also learned that adding length effectively increases lie angle. i can't remember if i was recommended more upright lie angle based on standard length or was fitted after having the additional length. i read that for every 1/2" it increases lie angle by 2*

Yeah it's opposite day, toe heavy contact means you need to go upright, heel heavy means go flat. Don't quote me but I think it's 2* upright for length thats 1" longer than standard. So +1/2 would be 1* upright

Edited by reg1900, 14 December 2012 - 10:52 AM.


#25 CHARGERS

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 12:15 PM

View PostERdiesel, on 12 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostCHARGERS, on 12 December 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Sharpie is the way to go, the lie board can influence the club at impact and your swing sometimes. some players sweep the ball and its tough to get accurate/clean readings.
PS. You can also use a normal pen in a pinch


Whereas I agree with you regarding sharpie is the way to go, your other statement about the lie board being able to influence the club at impact makes zero sense............considering you hit the ball first, than ground......or in this case the lie board a few inches in front of the ball and AFTER actual impact with the ball.  Well unless of course you duff it.  Or you were referring to the psychological effect of hitting a ball off of a lie board versus just mat or grass affecting the way someone swings.  Otherwise, a lie board only shows where the sole contacts the ground after impact and not during.  Hence, the sharpie test is the way to go, it shows how you contact the ball at impact.
Take notice how much higher the ball flies off the board and not all players strike the ball perfect every time and hit down.
Do they use lie boards on the tour trailers???? No...most guys just look at the ball flight and the divot.
As for the mentaI side, I like the sharpie method even more so because you can check the players club without them even knowing.





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