148 replies to this topic

[blackarrow]

joey3108, on 27 July 2006 - 04:59 PM, said:

4* flatter lie or more up right lie = increase or decrease 1 swing weight point

Joe

As a former club tech, there is no way adjusting the lie angle can affect the swingweight. Can you please explain how you came to that assumption?

Thanks Joe

Edited by blackarrow, 29 October 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[joey3108]

Read all the posts and replies from the beginning, you'll find the answer and you will learn not to jump on the reply with "no way".

Cheer!

Joe

[joey3108]

I'm pretty sure I've posted the answer before and I don't have time to look for it.

Here are why bending 4* on lie angle will change the swingweight too.

The center/fulcrum of the swingweight scale are at the same spot/never change....what will change is the measurement from the butt or from the fulcrum to the tip of the toe on the sole. The bigger the head design the greater the effect will be.

Flatter means further = heavier sw and more upright means closer + lighter sw.

Joe

[sung1018]

Quick question, if I cut 1/2" off my driver I will reduce my swing weight by 3 points. If my driver swing weight is D3, by cutting the shaft 1/2" it will reduce the weight to D0?

[Howard Jones]

sung1018, on 12 November 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Quick question, if I cut 1/2" off my driver I will reduce my swing weight by 3 points. If my driver swing weight is D3, by cutting the shaft 1/2" it will reduce the weight to D0?

YES, you got it right, and unless you re-set swing weight, the shaft will now play 3 CPM stronger, 1 CPM for each SW point you lost.

[dio600]

So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.

[maynard170]

dio600, on 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.

[Howard Jones]

blackarrow, on 29 October 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

joey3108, on 27 July 2006 - 04:59 PM, said:

4* flatter lie or more up right lie = increase or decrease 1 swing weight point

Joe

As a former club tech, there is no way adjusting the lie angle can affect the swingweight. Can you please explain how you came to that assumption?

Thanks Joe

LOL i missed this one..., a former club tech who did not know whats BASICs in club repair knowledge ?
- If you ever been to a club making school, this is one of the first things you learn, so it seems to be a hole lot of folks using work titles who is completely misleading to the customer, and thats a problem in this business.

In my books from Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute the rule of thumb is 3* change in lie, equals to 1 SW point, so when Joey sais 4* i think the difference is that Joey mostly work with players irons who has a shorter blade length heel to toe in general.
- When we go flatter on lie angle, the distance from the fulcrum to the toe end becomes longer, raising SW value.

When it comes to miss-use of job titles, I have a "local case" from my own country, where a PGA Pro is stating that he is educated in club fitting and club making from Tom Wishon. The problem is that Tom Wishon never made any classes in the Wishon name, but he has been a teacher of both fitting and club making for decades, but always under the name of others, but this man was not on any of this classes. At some point he has "glued" together some clubs to prove that he can do it, and by that he's got permission to buy Wishon components, but thats quite another story than being educated as Club fitter and Club maker.

We see the same every day when folks talk "Fitting" of clubs. 99% of all places DO NOT fit you for clubs at all, they offer you a DEMO of pre-assembled fixed options, and the "winner is" the one with the least amount of miss fit. This got NOTHING to do with fitting, and the answer is in the word itself. To make something to fit, we must adjust it, but if no adjustments is done, no fitting is done, and we talk way further than length, loft, lie and flex. On drivers you are "in heaven" if you get the option of trying different shaft lengths, and thats where it all starts, but do you get this offer ? No you dont, so the rest cant be a fitting no matter what they do or try to adjust, since the basic part is passed on "walk over", and i see that every day when someone in this forum is posting LM numbers and ask what to choose. I never saw any numbers posted in here thats close to what a fitting can do, so this customers is fooled to think they have been fitted, but they have not. At the very best, they have found a base or a starting point, but a real club fitting might take them to a hole new world of specs and playability.

I simply hate it, when folks uses terms and job titles who is miss leading, because the few of us in this business who actually know how to fit a club and to build it afterwards, has a hard time telling people that they got fooled other places. Rule #1 is NOT to say anything bad about your competitors, but how can we stay quiet, when folks with no skills at all is entering our domain, using the same job titles and terms as the true professionals do ?

Its not uncommon, that a player who has been to the typical 60 minutes of LM testing comes home and say, there is no benefits from getting fitted, and he tells that to all he knows, so this becomes "a fact", while the truth was that the "fitting" was a "payed demo" of clubs, and the "fitter" did not know what he was doing, and then the world turns one more time......

Sometimes i wish there was laws against this type of miss leading info, and i guess there is if we dig deep enogh, but in the mean time, its all a big mess where the public has next to none possibilities to know whats right or wrong, unless they are "above average" interested, and go to places like the WRX Club making forum to get info.

Tom Wishon just wrote a story about how marketing of golf clubs has damaged Golf, but i think that the miss leading use of the term "Fitting" has made made even larger damage to the reputation of the art of Club fitting and Club making, than marketing of "even longer than last years model" has..

Edited by Howard Jones, 16 January 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[savoyspecial13]

I would imagine tipping affectively lowers torque as well as flex.  Is this true?  If so, how much?
Thanks

[puttitin]

maynard170, on 08 January 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

dio600, on 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.

maynard170, on 08 January 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

dio600, on 03 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?

[joey3108]

[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1358854148' post='6275353']
[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?
[/quote]
Have you ever build club before? if you do how many and what kind of tools are you using?

[puttitin]

[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1359677463' post='6340075']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1358854148' post='6275353']
[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?
[/quote]
Have you ever build club before? if you do how many and what kind of tools are you using?

[/quote]


I've never built any clubs!Just confronting your "dictums" against another expert's work.It was not my intention to attack your acknowledged expertise. Why do you feel the need to be aggressive about this? If you have any useful comments to my remarks,please feel welcome to elaborate....

[joey3108]

Aggressive or not I will leave it up to the reader to judge.

My reply just merely asking a questions which obviously shows that you know nothing about club building, tips and tricks.

First, the guy who create the swingweight scale the one who gave us the chart rule of thumb. Second adding weight by the tip is different to any of the head parts section (toe, mid, high, and low). It gets worst when the head volume gets bigger and bigger. Say adding weight in the tip versus the toe of a 460 driver will be different...in addition to that, certain shaft balance will be different too.

Hands on experience will open our eyes and made us more careful on opening our mouth...at least we become a wiser human being IMHO!

[puttitin]

joey3108, on 10 February 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Aggressive or not I will leave it up to the reader to judge.

My reply just merely asking a questions which obviously shows that you know nothing about club building, tips and tricks.

First, the guy who create the swingweight scale the one who gave us the chart rule of thumb. Second adding weight by the tip is different to any of the head parts section (toe, mid, high, and low). It gets worst when the head volume gets bigger and bigger. Say adding weight in the tip versus the toe of a 460 driver will be different...in addition to that, certain shaft balance will be different too.

Hands on experience will open our eyes and made us more careful on opening our mouth...at least we become a wiser human being IMHO!

There you go again! telling people to shut their mouths! just because you have some experience of club building.
I'm out...........

[Adamt198]

I have a ate of 501 miura cb I bought on eBay with TI s400,  but the swing weight is like D6,  I need to get it d2.


What do I do,  probably puller he shafts and take some weight out of the head?  Any other ways,?

[onafriday]

[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1359704364' post='6342181']
[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1359677463' post='6340075']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1358854148' post='6275353']
[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?
[/quote]
Have you ever build club before? if you do how many and what kind of tools are you using?

[/quote]


I've never built any clubs!Just confronting your "dictums" against another expert's work.It was not my intention to attack your acknowledged expertise. Why do you feel the need to be aggressive about this? If you have any useful comments to my remarks,please feel welcome to elaborate....
[/quote]

Seems like Puttitin might be overreacting a little here?  Joe started the original thread and builds clubs for tour players, and is one of the god fathers of these boards.

You've never built a club, but saw a YouTube video?  Did you stay at a holiday inn last night too?

[puttitin]

[quote name='onafriday' timestamp='1360594311' post='6405797']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1359704364' post='6342181']
[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1359677463' post='6340075']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1358854148' post='6275353']
[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?
[/quote]
Have you ever build club before? if you do how many and what kind of tools are you using?

[/quote]


I've never built any clubs!Just confronting your "dictums" against another expert's work.It was not my intention to attack your acknowledged expertise. Why do you feel the need to be aggressive about this? If you have any useful comments to my remarks,please feel welcome to elaborate....
[/quote]

Seems like Puttitin might be overreacting a little here?  Joe started the original thread and builds clubs for tour players, and is one of the god fathers of these boards.

You've never built a club, but saw a YouTube video?  Did you stay at a holiday inn last night too?
[/quote]

[puttitin]

Below is the link to that youtube video from the Ping Tour Van. My question was pretty straight forward with no intention of calling out the gods of club builders!

After people have seen the video maybe they could answer my question,instead of slamming me on my club building experience ,which I have already conceded as being NONE.

What's with holiday inn?

http://www.youtube.c...Dzi7DnEYFc#t=0s

[Howard Jones]

What is the question ? 1 SW point is 2 grams as "Rule of thumb", but it vary due to club length, and where we are able to add it. The case @putting show, is one exact case and on that club length, and that position to ad weight, 9.4 grams was right, but that does not change the rule of thumb.

All swing weighting should be done by using a Swing weight scale, and then rule of thumb is handy for speed calk in your own head, but you always need to adjust plus or minus to that, depending on the length of the club and where you add it.

Longer clubs, less weight pr SW point, shorter club more weight pr SW point.
- On a driver weight toe side influence more on SW pr. gram than a tip weight in the bottom of the shaft.

SW = ((Lc*(H+S/2)-14*(H+S)-10G)/50) - 124

SW is the resultant SW with respect to D0 - ie 2=D2, -4=C6
Lc = nominal club length in inches
H = head weight in grams
S = trimmed shaft weigh in grams
G = grip weight in grams

Of cause Joey and every other professional club maker knows that, but it does not change the "rule of thumb" of 2 grams for each SW point. As a matter of fact, only a hand full "standards" of hard facts exist in this Business, the rest is rule of thumbs and experience, so a rule of thumb that says 1 sw point is equal to 2 grams is much more precise than saying S flex = 100 mph with a driver, even if we do that too by "rule of thumb", so this debate is lack of understanding of the terms and conditions the info is given.

Here is a excel sheet from Myostrich Golf for easy calc of how much weight you need, depending on wanted SW and club length, just like Ping does it. Its no revolution for anybody who knows what this is all about.
Swing Weight Calc.xls

Hope the link works

Edited by Howard Jones, 13 February 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Howard Jones]

For those who wants to learn what Swing weight is, and how it works, there is a lot of interesting stuff to read at Dave Tutlemans pages. This link is directly to the term Swing weight. The formula above comes from Dave Tutleman

http://www.tutelman....gn/swingwt4.php

He also writes about MOI or the true resistance value of the club. Swing weighting is a simplified method with a slight error vs true MOI, if we compare those to methods of "heft matching" clubs.

http://www.tutelman....hp#equation_MOI

[Howard Jones]

Here is a online calc for swing weight from Hireko, who takes the shafts balance point into the math.

[puttitin]

Howard Jones, on 13 February 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

What is the question ? 1 SW point is 2 grams as "Rule of thumb", but it vary due to club length, and where we are able to add it. The case @putting show, is one exact case and on that club length, and that position to ad weight, 9.4 grams was right, but that does not change the rule of thumb.

All swing weighting should be done by using a Swing weight scale, and then rule of thumb is handy for speed calk in your own head, but you always need to adjust plus or minus to that, depending on the length of the club and where you add it.

Longer clubs, less weight pr SW point, shorter club more weight pr SW point.
- On a driver weight toe side influence more on SW pr. gram than a tip weight in the bottom of the shaft.

SW = ((Lc*(H+S/2)-14*(H+S)-10G)/50) - 124

SW is the resultant SW with respect to D0 - ie 2=D2, -4=C6
Lc = nominal club length in inches
H = head weight in grams
S = trimmed shaft weigh in grams
G = grip weight in grams

Of cause Joey and every other professional club maker knows that, but it does not change the "rule of thumb" of 2 grams for each SW point. As a matter of fact, only a hand full "standards" of hard facts exist in this Business, the rest is rule of thumbs and experience, so a rule of thumb that says 1 sw point is equal to 2 grams is much more precise than saying S flex = 100 mph with a driver, even if we do that too by "rule of thumb", so this debate is lack of understanding of the terms and conditions the info is given.

Here is a excel sheet from Myostrich Golf for easy calc of how much weight you need, depending on wanted SW and club length, just like Ping does it. Its no revolution for anybody who knows what this is all about.
Swing Weight Calc.xls

Hope the link works

Thanks Howard. The question is on post n°100 above,but you've replied . Longer clubs,less Weight and Shorter clubs more Weight. And 2g=1WS is a rough guide.
Thats all I need to know.I'm not into building clubs,it was just a query. Now why couldn't other experts have explained this along the lines you just did?

Thanks again for taking the time.

[blackbeargolf]

shaft frequencies (or stiffness) relates to the weight of the clubhead. if the 3 iron head weighs more than the 4 iron head, then that distance gap and control will be messed up. now the toe might dip a little more causing bad shots. the result could be very weak high fades.

[blackbeargolf]

[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1360602407' post='6406833']
[quote name='onafriday' timestamp='1360594311' post='6405797']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1359704364' post='6342181']
[quote name='joey3108' timestamp='1359677463' post='6340075']
[quote name='puttitin' timestamp='1358854148' post='6275353']
[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

[quote name='maynard170' timestamp='1357638105' post='6189103']
[quote name='dio600' timestamp='1357274851' post='6165097']
So if I have a driver with D6 and I want to remove 1" from length I will then need to add 6 grams of weight to the head? Please advise.
[/quote]

If you want to maintain d6 then you need to add 12 grams. 6 grams would get you back to d3.
[/quote]

I know Joey says One SW = 2grams . However on a Youtube demonstration of club building by Ping,the builder said he wanted to go from a C7 (measured on his Swing Scale) to D4 for a i15 driver,and had a computer program indicating precisely 9.4gr weight was needed to gain 7 SW points. And voila, when he finished the Swing Scale showed exactly D4!  From this I conclude that One SW = 1.343 grams exactly.

Any comments?
[/quote]
Have you ever build club before? if you do how many and what kind of tools are you using?

[/quote]


I've never built any clubs!Just confronting your "dictums" against another expert's work.It was not my intention to attack your acknowledged expertise. Why do you feel the need to be aggressive about this? If you have any useful comments to my remarks,please feel welcome to elaborate....
[/quote]

Seems like Puttitin might be overreacting a little here?  Joe started the original thread and builds clubs for tour players, and is one of the god fathers of these boards.

You've never built a club, but saw a YouTube video?  Did you stay at a holiday inn last night too?
[/quote]
[/quote]i wouldn't recommend cutting an inch off and then adding that much weight to the head. you get a lot of toe dip causing a lot of bad shots. the club will most likely feel very awful.  i would recommend getting a stiffer shaft if you want to go shorter and keep that swing weight.

[rcke]

Perhaps Mr. Kwok himself woudl approve of this ???

Edited by rcke, 15 February 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[Howard Jones]

rcke, on 15 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Perhaps Mr. Kwok himself woudl approve of this ???

Swingweights_Palmer and Hope.jpg

As rules of thumb they are all OK, but real life is not equal to those values

As example : 9 grams shaft weight equals to 1 SW point - YES but only if the balance point is equal

Ex #2 - 5 Grams grip weight = 1 SW point - YES but i depend on how the balance is in the grip itself
a Golf Pride New Decade is heavy at butt side with another rubber and cord, so even if the same rule of thumbs (missing in your photo), say we have to use a 50-52 gram grip to get a correct SW reading, GPND gives the same value at only 46.5 grams

You can also add, that 1 SW point raise, is 1 CPM flex weaker and we count 10 CPM as 1 flex class in the L.A.R.S.X system

[tnord]

so i've got a set of x100s with a 1'' steel extension and midsize multi compounds.  i'm going to put them into some VR Pro blades, but also am going to cut the extension by 1/2'' and put on BCT standard cords likely with two or three wraps to build up a little. what i would LIKE to do is be able to put the head on and try it with the extra 1/2'' and midsize grips....then if i decide i still want to cut it down and replace the grip not have to pull the head again.

i've never done this before but if i understand this correctly cutting 1/2'' off the butt will take the swingweight DOWN say from a D7 to a D4 because the balance point gets pushed farther towards the clubhead. but going to a 7g lighter grip will increase the swingweight by about 1.5, and the extra wrap or two of tape might get that back to 1, so i'd be at roughtly a D5, at which point if i wanted a D6 i could just lead tape the head without having to separate the shaft. but if i wanted to go down i'm SOL?

[Howard Jones]

You have 2 options on going DOWN in SW value

#1 length - but dont use length do get SW right, length is #1 parameter in a fitting, and nothing shall overrule it.

#2 remove weight from the club head - this is the way to go.
Yes it can be done. Depending on head and hosel type, most heads who does NOT have a weight port in the hosel below the shaft, got a potential of up to 10 grams. You simply drill a hole down the hosel with a smaller diameter than the shaft tip, so insertion dept remains the same as original. Should be down in a tower drill station and by a professional. 5-6 grams is peace of cake on most heads and i do it on regular basis to adjust head weight.
.

[tnord]

eh....i'd much rather just take the head back off and put a different tip weight in rather than drilling out the head.

[onafriday]

I think Howard's got the right idea.  Rules of thumb are nice, but a top club builder, like Joe, will really dial you in.  

Sorry YouTube.