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Swing weight factors in relation to parts


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#121 Howard Jones

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:59 AM

View Posttnord, on 16 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

eh....i'd much rather just take the head back off and put a different tip weight in rather than drilling out the head.

It does not help much to go for a lower tip weight , if SW is to high even without tip weight.
Its for those cases hosel drilling is good to know about.

Edited by Howard Jones, 17 February 2013 - 03:59 AM.


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#122 tnord

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostHoward Jones, on 17 February 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

View Posttnord, on 16 February 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

eh....i'd much rather just take the head back off and put a different tip weight in rather than drilling out the head.

It does not help much to go for a lower tip weight , if SW is to high even without tip weight.
Its for those cases hosel drilling is good to know about.

got it...you were meaning more in general rather than my specific situation.  in that case...i agree.  my current set is a D3/D4 and with the new ones i'm putting together part of the experiment is to try a heavier SW so having it scale out at a D6 before trimming is perfect. if i want to go even higher i have some lead tape to play with, or if i decide i like the D4 better trimming 1/2'' down to final length will get me to D3 which will allow me to tip weight back up to that.

Edited by tnord, 17 February 2013 - 08:57 AM.

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#123 PittShark

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM

So after looking at the quick reference guide at the start of this thread, I'm thinking I might need some clarification on the setup I'm putting together.  I'm wondering also if I was playing with a slightly jacked up setup last season.

So I'm about to switch to an r11-s and I'll right away be putting my current shaft in it, which is a RIP beta s, 44.75".  Now that's 1 inch under the stock length, so if I'm reading that right, it makes a difference of 6 sw points?  And also if I'm reading that right, in order to make up for 6 points, the club head would need an additional 12 grams to bring it back to the stock sw?

If I'm correct so far on that, then that's more than I could make up for simply by using heavier weights in the weight ports like I've done in the past.  What would the solution be here?  Weighting the tip of the shaft?  

Any clarification/advice would be appreciated.
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#124 Howard Jones

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:37 AM

Your math is OK, and the solution to the weight issue is Hotmelt

#125 joey3108

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostPittShark, on 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

So after looking at the quick reference guide at the start of this thread, I'm thinking I might need some clarification on the setup I'm putting together.  I'm wondering also if I was playing with a slightly jacked up setup last season.

So I'm about to switch to an r11-s and I'll right away be putting my current shaft in it, which is a RIP beta s, 44.75".  Now that's 1 inch under the stock length, so if I'm reading that right, it makes a difference of 6 sw points?  And also if I'm reading that right, in order to make up for 6 points, the club head would need an additional 12 grams to bring it back to the stock sw?

If I'm correct so far on that, then that's more than I could make up for simply by using heavier weights in the weight ports like I've done in the past.  What would the solution be here?  Weighting the tip of the shaft?  

Any clarification/advice would be appreciated.
Just like Howard says, hot melt is the way to go....but not to many have the right hotmelt machine due to high cost and huge minimum buy on the glue. However, R11 can be adjusted by changing weight screws.

To answer some more of your question. Double check first what you got, lots of time OEM are not accurate on their specs, especially on mass produce products. you might not need to adjust the head weight that much on that particular head due to heavy SW at the beginning already. Normal standard out there is around D2 so far, unless they are JDM specs.

To All,
Building a club as precise as possible is good to eliminate at least 1 factor of the game....but remember that golf club has no brain, we are! :) So we still need to produce the swing to maximize the club potential.

Cheers!

joe


#126 PittShark

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

Thanks for the clarification Joe!
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#127 RedWings1

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

Joe,

First, Thanks for all the information you have provided.

I've looked but can't find a guide on - Where you should add the Lead Tape to the head of a driver, 3w or a 5w and what effects are caused by the tapes position.
Reason, I want to put the lead tape in the correct position. I cut down my 5w a 1/2" but need to add tape to bring back the sw.
Hopefully I can keep the same neutral weighting of my TEE CB4 5w.
I'd also like to experiment with lead tape and its effects on my driver: ADAMS 9064LS 9.5* Fuji Blur TS65 stiff
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#128 joey3108

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:57 AM

View PostRedWings1, on 25 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Joe,

First, Thanks for all the information you have provided.

I've looked but can't find a guide on - Where you should add the Lead Tape to the head of a driver, 3w or a 5w and what effects are caused by the tapes position.
Reason, I want to put the lead tape in the correct position. I cut down my 5w a 1/2" but need to add tape to bring back the sw.
Hopefully I can keep the same neutral weighting of my TEE CB4 5w.
I'd also like to experiment with lead tape and its effects on my driver: ADAMS 9064LS 9.5* Fuji Blur TS65 stiff
First thank you for reminding me that there are nice people like you who start a post with THANK YOU. :)

Anyway. 1/2" = 3 SW points = 6gr will be a lot of lead tape. Not to bad in a driver, but bad on a FW IMO.

Bare in mind, 8-10gr weight bias will only move 1.8" sweetspot towards the weight CG. Be creative if you have to add lead tape, try to be as even as possible and as less as possible visible at address possition. Lead tape can be stretch a bit to curve around the head. I always try to put it in any cavity first if any. reduce the possibility catching the ground at impact, especially on club that you will hit of the deck.

Hope that helps!

Joe

#129 RedWings1

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:28 AM

View Postjoey3108, on 26 February 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

View PostRedWings1, on 25 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Joe,

First, Thanks for all the information you have provided.

I've looked but can't find a guide on - Where you should add the Lead Tape to the head of a driver, 3w or a 5w and what effects are caused by the tapes position.
Reason, I want to put the lead tape in the correct position. I cut down my 5w a 1/2" but need to add tape to bring back the sw.
Hopefully I can keep the same neutral weighting of my TEE CB4 5w.
I'd also like to experiment with lead tape and its effects on my driver: ADAMS 9064LS 9.5* Fuji Blur TS65 stiff
First thank you for reminding me that there are nice people like you who start a post with THANK YOU. :)

Anyway. 1/2" = 3 SW points = 6gr will be a lot of lead tape. Not to bad in a driver, but bad on a FW IMO.

Bare in mind, 8-10gr weight bias will only move 1.8" sweetspot towards the weight CG. Be creative if you have to add lead tape, try to be as even as possible and as less as possible visible at address possition. Lead tape can be stretch a bit to curve around the head. I always try to put it in any cavity first if any. reduce the possibility catching the ground at impact, especially on club that you will hit of the deck.

Hope that helps!

Joe

Thanks Joe
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#130 e46darnell

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

I'm I correct in thinking a higher swing weight with wedges will make touch shots harder?

I have a 56 degree cleveland D4 that I do pretty well with but I have a 59 degree SCOR that tends to carry further than I would expect. Is this a result of swing weight? Just weight in general?


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#131 Howard Jones

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

Lenght  - Grams pr. SW point
45 .0  -1,59
44.5  - 1,62
44.0  - 1,65
43.5  - 1,68
43.0  - 1,71
42.5  - 1,74
42.0  - 1,77
41.5  - 1,8
41.0  - 1,84
40.5  - 1,88
40.0  - 1,92
39.5  - 1,96
39.0  - 2
38.5  - 2,04
38.0  - 2,08
37.5  - 2,12
37.0 -  2,16
36.5 -  2,21
36.0 -  2,26
35.5 -  2,31
35.0 -  2,36
34.5 -  2,41

#132 thomas55

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:01 PM

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in.  I was reading through and joey3108 said something that made me wonder about an issue with my irons. I had mine reshafted and made 3/4' longer. When I picked them up my 7 iron was D6 and I was told they were all D6
I played them throughout the summer and thought some felt heavier than others but thought it was just me.
A friend of mine just bought a scale and here is what I found
3 iron D8 415 grms.
4 iron D9 410 grms.
5 iron D9 420 grms.
6 iron D7 420 grms.
7 iron D6.5 420 grms.
8 iron D7.5 425 grms.
9 iron D5.5 435 grms.
PW    D6    445 grms.
52W  D5.5  480 grms.
56W  D6    480 grms
60W  D4    480 grms.
How can I get the swing weight down in my long irons without adding weight under the grips? You said that you felt counter weighting was like cheating. I know it would take 5 grms added to the butt end just to change 1 SW point that seems like a lot of weight to be adding. Is there some other way?

#133 Howard Jones

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

View Postthomas55, on 24 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in.  I was reading through and joey3108 said something that made me wonder about an issue with my irons. I had mine reshafted and made 3/4' longer. When I picked them up my 7 iron was D6 and I was told they were all D6
I played them throughout the summer and thought some felt heavier than others but thought it was just me.
A friend of mine just bought a scale and here is what I found
3 iron D8 415 grms.
4 iron D9 410 grms.
5 iron D9 420 grms.
6 iron D7 420 grms.
7 iron D6.5 420 grms.
8 iron D7.5 425 grms.
9 iron D5.5 435 grms.
PW D6 445 grms.
52W  D5.5  480 grms.
56W  D6 480 grms
60W  D4 480 grms.
How can I get the swing weight down in my long irons without adding weight under the grips? You said that you felt counter weighting was like cheating. I know it would take 5 grms added to the butt end just to change 1 SW point that seems like a lot of weight to be adding. Is there some other way?

Depending on what heads you got, there might be an option for a skilled club maker to hosel bore out some weight from the heads. Its done by using a smaller diameter than the shaft, so insertion dept for the shaft remains the same. Some irons already got a hosel bore as a weight pocket, and then its very limited.

#134 joey3108

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:40 PM

View Poste46darnell, on 17 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

I'm I correct in thinking a higher swing weight with wedges will make touch shots harder?

I have a 56 degree cleveland D4 that I do pretty well with but I have a 59 degree SCOR that tends to carry further than I would expect. Is this a result of swing weight? Just weight in general?
Harder or not is subjective to individual taste and skill level. 2 different head design could give different result, assuming all specs exactly the same. You cant judge distance has any relation to the sw, maybe for some but thats is individual problems to itself imo.

View Postthomas55, on 24 March 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in.  I was reading through and joey3108 said something that made me wonder about an issue with my irons. I had mine reshafted and made 3/4' longer. When I picked them up my 7 iron was D6 and I was told they were all D6
I played them throughout the summer and thought some felt heavier than others but thought it was just me.
A friend of mine just bought a scale and here is what I found
3 iron D8 415 grms.
4 iron D9 410 grms.
5 iron D9 420 grms.
6 iron D7 420 grms.
7 iron D6.5 420 grms.
8 iron D7.5 425 grms.
9 iron D5.5 435 grms.
PW    D6    445 grms.
52W  D5.5  480 grms.
56W  D6    480 grms
60W  D4    480 grms.
How can I get the swing weight down in my long irons without adding weight under the grips? You said that you felt counter weighting was like cheating. I know it would take 5 grms added to the butt end just to change 1 SW point that seems like a lot of weight to be adding. Is there some other way?

Assuming you got fitted properly and your finding is correct, most iron can be drilled at the bottom of the hosel by only 2 sw points (4gr approximately), some dont even have room to do it. Yet you need to be carefull on lots of factors to make sure it has enough strength later when you need to bend the lie angle and take all those fat shots if any ( I usually do it in 2 or 3 different size drill bit ). Porting will be needed if you need more than that. Be smart on where you do it to make sure you wont throw off the balance point.

Calculate on where you want to end up to make sure you have room to add or deduct the head weight. This way you make them playable without any bias or at least effect your mental game. In my case, I dont like to add or substract more than 6 grams from 1 spot.

In an ideal world, for you ....grinding the head evenly or order a lighter head weight would give you the best result....

just my 2 cents!

joe

#135 sm_watts

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 10:33 PM

Hey Joe, thanks for getting this thread going and keeping it updated.  It has answered a few questions about some failed driver experiments.  On that note, I would like to put together a 44-inch driver.  Using the Excel swingweight calculator that I downloaded off here, it would appear that I'll need a driver head in the 207-gram range to keep it D2 with a ProLaunch Blue 65R shaft.  Sound right so far?
But it seems like every head out there is somewhere between 192~198 grams.  Golfsmith has 10 gram inserts for graphite shafts, would that be easier than loading it up with lead tape?  I'm sure it would look cleaner.  What do people typically do to create a driver that short?
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

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#136 drumon

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

Regarding grip weight and swing weight, does adding a heavier grip increase or decrease the swing weight?

If I want to re-grip a lightweight driver (Burner), should I use a similar light grip or will a regular weight type not make a noticeable effect?

Thanks

#137 waldy

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:57 AM

Need a bit of help with my driver, what I plan to do is butt trim it further to 44" as I am getting a few hits from the top edge and put a heavier grip on, would this help me?. Its a 2013 Md golf superstrong St3g and after hitting it well initially, did not like the shaft so pulled it and put in an old favourite of mine to try out, a True temper Bimatrx Rxi stiff. This shaft has been a revealation, I have gained around 30 yards and with my 96mph 6i/106mph driver swingspeed hit two 310+ yd drives yesterday in the English weather conditions and 9/10 down the middle, on two holes at my home course I recorded my longest ever drives. Now the problem is that this thing feels so heavy! The driver head is around the normal weight but the shaft I believe weighs 105 grams, I have butt trimmed it at my standard 44.5" length and standard grip but the balance point is around 3" more towards the tip than my Razr x black. Over the years I have learnt that with my aggressive swing, a mid bend point is what suits me the best, which is why this shaft works, but what are my options to make it better, would a heavier grip or weight at the butt do anything? Thanks for your help.

Edited by waldy, 08 April 2013 - 05:57 AM.


#138 MixedBag

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

Thanks for this thread Joe.... can you check some math for me....I'm having someone build a new shaft for my Covert Tour.  I believe with this new shaft I'll lose 3 swingweights.

Current Shaft Weight- 66g
New Shaft Weight-  51g
New Shaft Length-   -1/4"

I'm assuming I'll use the same grip, but I'm guessing I could go with a lighter grip to gain some of the swingweight back? thanks

#139 81PING

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:19 PM

I also have a question to add to the thread.

Do these numbers apply to both graphite and steel iron shafts?

Upon experimentation, i chopped about 1" off of a PING CFS reg shaft and measured it to be about 5.2 grams. Wouldn't 1 inch of graphite be less weight?

If they add up to the same swing weight loss regardless of matierial...why?

Thanks!

#140 socalmo

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:57 AM

Hello, and thank you in advance for any help you may be able to give!

I am playing Wilson Ci6 irons.  These irons are typically 1/2" longer than most brands...i.e. 5 iron is 38.5.

I would like to cut down 1/2" off each iron and would like to know if I should be concerned with the resultant change in the lie angle?

I plan on having the clubs bent 2* upright but haven't figured out what I should do, if anything, about the lie angle.

Thanks again!


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#141 evoviiiyou

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:30 PM

I put together a driver with an 11.5* TM Super Tri head (1-16-1 MWT), 44.75 Epic 68S, and a Winn over size light grip (25g).  Swing weight is D10 and I was shocked because it feels so good and my tee shots have never been better.  The rest of my clubs are D2-D3 (3-9 irons) and D4 (wedges).  Should I be concerned with my driver swing weight or is that Winn light grip just throwing the swing weight scale off?
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#142 Huckstable

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:32 AM

Hi guys,  thanks for all the great information.  

I have a question about changing a shaft in my driver.  I have a diamana Kai,li stiff shaft which i want to put in my current driver. It has been butt trimmed to 43 and will play 44.5 in my cobra amp 10.5 degree head.  What i want to know is, is there a specific head weight that is right for the this shaft to play stiff? for example 200 it will play normal still  but 224 will change to a regular flex? I ask this because the old shaft is 45.5 so i expect the sw to drop by about 6 point and i would like to bring the swing back to the original SW but i am worried it will affect the flex of the shaft.  

Also does anyone know what the head weight of the 10.5 degree cobra amp is?  ive heard that as the lofts get lower in these drivers the head weight gets higher. The 10.5 is d3 and the 8.5 is d7.  If this is true then maybe i can get away with adding weight to the head without affecting the shaft.

Does the cobra tip need to be included in the head weight.

Its getting a bit confusing!

Thanks in advance.

#143 Howard Jones

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

The shaft dont change, but when you add weight to the head, the shaft got more weight to handle, so it plays softer for that reason.
- Connector is included in head weight when we judge it, and yours will be close to 200 grams with connector.
If you plan to add 10 grams, thats equal to a 3W head, and then you should tip trim the shaft like it was meant for a 3W head, and thats often 0.5 inch, but not always, so see the manufacturers trim instructions.

If you only cut from the butt side, launch will be higher because of more head weight, and that you cut of a bit of the stiffest part of the shaft, the BUTT. When we tip trim, we use less tip, and more butt on the same shaft length.

#144 Huckstable

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:23 PM

Thanks Howard,

I weighed the head last night without the adapter and it came in at 192.5 grams i guess the sleeve must be around 8 grams which would make it about 200 as you said.  For the Kai,li it is .5 for the 3 wood.  Ill do some measurements again and see what i can come up with.

#145 bullrambler

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

My view on SW in a set of irons is as follows: Low bend point shafts, lower SW; and a higer bend point shaft - more SW.


#146 The Adam

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

So if I'm reading this correctly my R11 cut around 5/8 of an inch short (from the butt end I assume) is around 3 swing weight points below the normal R11 swing weight. This would equate to around 27 grams (9g per swing weight point) right? What are some of the side effects of having a club that is too low on swing weight points?

Edited by The Adam, 11 May 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#147 Howard Jones

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

View PostThe Adam, on 11 May 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

So if I'm reading this correctly my R11 cut around 5/8 of an inch short (from the butt end I assume) is around 3 swing weight points below the normal R11 swing weight. This would equate to around 27 grams (9g per swing weight point) right? What are some of the side effects of having a club that is too low on swing weight points?

NO NO....
- Going shorter, is loosing 3 SW points for each 0.5 inch or 6 SW points pr inch
If you look above here, you will se that 1 SW points vary in grams, depending on club lenght

45 .0  -1,59
44.5  - 1,62
44.0  - 1,65

So if you go down to 45 ? its 1.59 grams for each SW point you loose from cut down, in your case about 6 grams
( 6 sw points pr inch = 0.75 for each 1/8 x 5 = 3.75 SW points x 1.59 grams = 6 grams)


I guess you mix it up with 9 grams shaft weight = 1 Sw point as rule of thumb, but you dont change shaft weight, you go shorter
- TOO low SW value, and you want be able to FEEL where the head is during the swing, its become to "light".

Edited by Howard Jones, 12 May 2013 - 05:30 AM.


#148 Ktown

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:11 PM

Excellent post!  Thanks Joe.

#149 dkwsu

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:00 PM

View Postjoey3108, on 20 July 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

View Postacquadiice, on 06 June 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Joe, removing paintfill change the swing weight?
Paint weight in the paintfill is not heavy enough to change the SW.

View PostJscopus, on 19 July 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

If you need to significantly lower swingweight due to hot melt in the head, and don't want to deal with getting it out, are you better off to add weight with a heavier grip and a backweight like a Tour Lock insert (need to drop 6 SW points (add about 30 gms) from D9 to D3) or just put it all in the insert. Can get maybe 5 more grams in the grip and would be putting a 20 or 30 gm insert. Essentially, where will the weight be least felt statically and most benefit swing wise? Thanks
Jeff

Sorry, I don't believe in counter weighting. It's like cheating without solving the problem IMO.

Hi Joe,  do you feel counter wieghting irons is cheating too?  If yes, how would you achieve a lighter swingweight?

#150 joey3108

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

View Postdkwsu, on 18 May 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

View Postjoey3108, on 20 July 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

View Postacquadiice, on 06 June 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

Joe, removing paintfill change the swing weight?
Paint weight in the paintfill is not heavy enough to change the SW.

View PostJscopus, on 19 July 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

If you need to significantly lower swingweight due to hot melt in the head, and don't want to deal with getting it out, are you better off to add weight with a heavier grip and a backweight like a Tour Lock insert (need to drop 6 SW points (add about 30 gms) from D9 to D3) or just put it all in the insert. Can get maybe 5 more grams in the grip and would be putting a 20 or 30 gm insert. Essentially, where will the weight be least felt statically and most benefit swing wise? Thanks
Jeff

Sorry, I don't believe in counter weighting. It's like cheating without solving the problem IMO.

Hi Joe,  do you feel counter wieghting irons is cheating too?  If yes, how would you achieve a lighter swingweight?
YES, Anything for a club that still required a full swing.

I can see MAYBE on a putter just to quite down your wrist action  during stroke.

Just thinking about it hurts my back already adding 50-100 gr per club carrying it 18 holes. :)


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