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Old Grooves vs New Grooves


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#1 mosesgolf

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:37 PM

Here's an interesting stat sheet pulled from Golf Magazine.  Old Grooves vs New Groove
                                      2009         2010
Scambling                             57.64%        57.72%
Proximity to hole from 10-20yds       6'9"          6'8"
Proximity to hole from 20-30yds       9'6"          9'3"
Approches from 50-75yds               16'3"         15'8"
Approaches from rough 50-75yds        22'2"         21'6"
Driving Distance                     279.5         278.6
Driving Accuracy                      61.77%        61.87%

Looks like the best players in the world just know how to play for more roll out.  It appears V vs Square grooves was much about nuthin.  Best players in the world just took a slightly different approach to their v groove wedges to what looks like a slight benefit.  All of this fuss really amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

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#2 gtaj

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:40 PM

View Postmosesgolf, on 18 September 2010 - 11:37 PM, said:

Here's an interesting stat sheet pulled from Golf Magazine.  Old Grooves vs New Groove
                                      2009         2010
Scambling                             57.64%        57.72%
Proximity to hole from 10-20yds       6'9"          6'8"
Proximity to hole from 20-30yds       9'6"          9'3"
Approches from 50-75yds               16'3"         15'8"
Approaches from rough 50-75yds        22'2"         21'6"
Driving Distance                     279.5         278.6
Driving Accuracy                      61.77%        61.87%

Looks like the best players in the world just know how to play for more roll out.  It appears V vs Square grooves was much about nuthin.  Best players in the world just took a slightly different approach to their v groove wedges to what looks like a slight benefit.  All of this fuss really amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

Except sell a lot of new wedges...

#3 mosesgolf

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:52 PM

View Postgtaj, on 18 September 2010 - 11:40 PM, said:

View Postmosesgolf, on 18 September 2010 - 11:37 PM, said:

Here's an interesting stat sheet pulled from Golf Magazine.  Old Grooves vs New Groove
                                      2009         2010
Scambling                             57.64%        57.72%
Proximity to hole from 10-20yds       6'9"          6'8"
Proximity to hole from 20-30yds       9'6"          9'3"
Approches from 50-75yds               16'3"         15'8"
Approaches from rough 50-75yds        22'2"         21'6"
Driving Distance                     279.5         278.6
Driving Accuracy                      61.77%        61.87%

Looks like the best players in the world just know how to play for more roll out.  It appears V vs Square grooves was much about nuthin.  Best players in the world just took a slightly different approach to their v groove wedges to what looks like a slight benefit.  All of this fuss really amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

Except sell a lot of new wedges...

Yes.  It's going to be a huge windfall for the oems as the u/sqaure groove wedges get phased out.  Seriously though, todays top players are so good with their wedges regardless of which kind of grooves that their going to play bomb and gauge golf.  Their have been rumors of scaling back the ball and its stats like this that may prompt the USGA to do something about it.  Hopefully, they won't.  Man it's guys like Bubba and DJ hitting short irons into 500yd par 4's that's the cause of this.  :D  Dang long ballers.  ;)

Edited by mosesgolf, 19 September 2010 - 12:36 PM.

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#4 Geohans

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:36 AM

Huge windfall?

Oems gotta retool and retest.
vast majority of golfers are not even thinking about this.
better players replace their wedges regularly anyway.  Even the masses would be buying a wedge or two in the next 14 years.

I see no significant changes in buying patterns outside the 1 percent of golfers for whom this change matters.

If there are some numbers in there that I'm missing, let me know and we can recalculate profits and future stock performance.

#5 pcirelli

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

I actually spin my Vokeys too much when brand new, so I'm just going to buy conforming ones. Does that make sense? Thx.
-Pete


#6 Big Ben

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:11 AM

This groove rule change is aweful and poorly thoughtout, the only folks truly effected are the average golfers who can ill afford any equipment performance setbacks...BB

Edited by Big Ben, 19 September 2010 - 09:12 AM.

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#7 14mh

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:13 AM

View PostGeohans, on 19 September 2010 - 08:36 AM, said:

Huge windfall?

Oems gotta retool and retest.
vast majority of golfers are not even thinking about this.
better players replace their wedges regularly anyway.  Even the masses would be buying a wedge or two in the next 14 years.

I see no significant changes in buying patterns outside the 1 percent of golfers for whom this change matters.

If there are some numbers in there that I'm missing, let me know and we can recalculate profits and future stock performance.



I agree it makes them spend more money and cuts into profit.
All this rule did is make it harder for me to play golf in the future. The club companies should be able to still make the current grooves since I will now end up being conforming long before the USGA says my hacker self should be.




#8 magpie

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:21 AM

It's all about the ball.  

You could give me clubs from the 60's and 70's, a full bag, and and I would probably score fractionally worse than I do with today's equipment because the ball flies so straight.

USGA had a chance to put a stop to it with the invent of the first pro v1 and didn't.

#9 square

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:26 AM

The groove Rule wasn't thought out at all. Arnold Palmer complained to the USGA that guys were hitting the green from the rough. The USGA foolishly listened to Palmer and made the new Rule.

View PostBig Ben, on 19 September 2010 - 09:11 AM, said:

This groove rule change is aweful and poorly thoughtout, the only folks truly effected are the average golfers who can ill afford any equipment performance setbacks...BB

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#10 magpie

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:37 AM

View Postsquare, on 19 September 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

The groove Rule wasn't thought out at all. Arnold Palmer complained to the USGA that guys were hitting the green from the rough. The USGA foolishly listened to Palmer and made the new Rule.

View PostBig Ben, on 19 September 2010 - 09:11 AM, said:

This groove rule change is aweful and poorly thoughtout, the only folks truly effected are the average golfers who can ill afford any equipment performance setbacks...BB

When the boys at Augusta talk, people listen, even when they shouldn't.


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#11 petter7

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:54 AM

View Postmagpie, on 19 September 2010 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's all about the ball.  

You could give me clubs from the 60's and 70's, a full bag, and and I would probably score fractionally worse than I do with today's equipment because the ball flies so straight.

USGA had a chance to put a stop to it with the invent of the first pro v1 and didn't.

I can't remember when the last time I hit a wildly curving shot. Todays balls are
amazing compared to what we hit back in the sixties. Those damn things had a
mind of their own and got out of round really quick. Shaping shots is not even
close to what it once was. It will be interesting to see the evolution of golf ball
construction over the next decade.

As for the grooves, I'm glad they changed them despite only a slight difference
in the stats. Fliers are back in the game and it's much tougher to put spin on the
ball from deep grass around the green. The first time I saw someone hit a square
groove wedge I couldn't believe it. First word that came to my mind was cheating.
I don't care if everybody hates the rule, technology should not override skill IMO.

#12 pcirelli

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:18 AM

View Postpetter7, on 19 September 2010 - 09:54 AM, said:

View Postmagpie, on 19 September 2010 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's all about the ball.  

You could give me clubs from the 60's and 70's, a full bag, and and I would probably score fractionally worse than I do with today's equipment because the ball flies so straight.

USGA had a chance to put a stop to it with the invent of the first pro v1 and didn't.

I can't remember when the last time I hit a wildly curving shot. Todays balls are
amazing compared to what we hit back in the sixties. Those damn things had a
mind of their own and got out of round really quick. Shaping shots is not even
close to what it once was. It will be interesting to see the evolution of golf ball
construction over the next decade.

As for the grooves, I'm glad they changed them despite only a slight difference
in the stats. Fliers are back in the game and it's much tougher to put spin on the
ball from deep grass around the green. The first time I saw someone hit a square
groove wedge I couldn't believe it. First word that came to my mind was cheating.
I don't care if everybody hates the rule, technology should not override skill IMO.
I've been gaming MP-68's for the past three months and I can remember maybe just a couple of fliers. I was kind of scared of the "new" grooves, but it really didn't have much of an impact for me.
-Pete

#13 stage1350

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:40 AM

When performance and statistics show that the equipment isn't making the difference, it's time for the USGA to scrap the rule.  

Nothing is going to come from rendering thousands (millions) of irons and wedges illegal except force people to buy "conforming" equipment.  That is not a good way to grow the game.  I know my first set of clubs was a set of hand-me-downs from a grandparent.  What's little Billy supposed to do?  No hand-me-downs because they are illegal.  Not smart.

Rescind the rule, USGA.  Admit when you are wrong. And understand that engineers will always find ways to level the playing field before you go on another witchhunt to reign in distance.
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#14 Doublebuck

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:53 AM

Some of the Tour Players interviewed have commented that it is actually easier now as they don't have to "manage their spin" as much as with square grooves.

#15 jebb

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:53 AM

Does anyone know how many tournaments were won by the Ping Eye 2s with the grooves that caused such controversy earlier in the year?

That Aint Billy Bob!!

#16 petter7

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 11:19 AM

View Poststage1350, on 19 September 2010 - 10:40 AM, said:

When performance and statistics show that the equipment isn't making the difference, it's time for the USGA to scrap the rule.  

Nothing is going to come from rendering thousands (millions) of irons and wedges illegal except force people to buy "conforming" equipment.  That is not a good way to grow the game.  I know my first set of clubs was a set of hand-me-downs from a grandparent.  What's little Billy supposed to do?  No hand-me-downs because they are illegal.  Not smart.

Rescind the rule, USGA.  Admit when you are wrong. And understand that engineers will always find ways to level the playing field before you go on another witchhunt to reign in distance.

The rule does not apply to everyday amateur players and it is possible
it never will. It only presently applies to golf competitions at the highest
professional levels. National am events are scheduled to be included by
2014, but, that could even change and/or be extended.

As for hand-me-downs, I don't see a problem with that. In fact, I never
see any junior players of any age playing with old clubs. These kids are
using the new equipment, especially if they are serious about the game.
If not, they can use anything and it won't matter.

The USGA is not wrong. They are doing what is necessary to keep the
advances of technology from eroding the skills of the game. I do not
want the OEM's dictating how the game shall be played. There bottom
line is profits, first and foremost and I don't blame them for that, but,
the game needs to be handled by people who only have the traditions
of the game in mind without the burden of satisfying shareholders or
owners accounting. It's a tough undertaking since new technology is a
fast occurring process. I support the USGA, always have, and I believe
they will always keep the best interests of the game in mind, no matter
how much resistance from those that like to complain about their efforts.
JMHO.

#17 stage1350

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 11:48 AM

Petter,

On your first paragraph, we are in total agreement.  If we are lucky, they will not bother with the amateurs.  Since regulating the professionals has proven worthless, that means the rule has no teeth.  Therefore, why not scrap it completely?

I'm not talking about junior players.  I'm talking about kids that want to take up the game.  They don't have a mom at their beck and call waiting to drive them to practice.  They don't have companies giving them free equipment.  They aren't assembling online resumes from the age of 6 to get into college.  I'm talking about the average kid that wants to go spend time with dad on the range or the course.  The used club bins will be full of gear that is no longer conforming for play.  This is unwise for a sport that needs to grow.  

Part of what you are talking about is the infiltration of money into the decision making process.  I agree that is a major problem that is rotting this game from within, as companies gamble on future players with the allure of free equipment and sponsorship money.  But that's a topic for another discussion.

For your last paragraph, I disagree completely.  It's not the OEMs that are driving how the game is played.  It's the PUBLIC.  If everyone didn't want to be Bubba or Daly off the tee, the bomb & gouge phenomenon wouldn't exist.  Are you saying we didn't see this obsesion with distance when Jack and Arnie were hitting it past everyone with persimmon?  

Normally, I hate the "elitist" connotations in golf.  But your comment about "the game needs to be handled by people who only have the traditions of the game in mind" makes me wonder who these people are and why they think their way is the only way?  What ever happened to the classic golf phrase "it's not how, but how many?" When I hear whiners like Shackelford cry about the Pizza Hut Masters and long hitters not playing the course "as the architect intended," it makes me want to punch a baby.  Who are they to say that my score is not relevant if I can break par using a driver and wedge the majority of the time? I still have to score.  Just because I don't lay up or bump and run a 7 iron doesn't mean that I'm ruining the game.  I play risk/reward and if I can beat the odds, good for me.  

You can support the USGA all you want.  That is your choice.  But history shows that when rulemakers restrict the activities of the public without a good justification, it results in failure.  The professionals have shown that this rule is not necessary and that making 20+ years of club production illegal serves no purpose.  Therefore, the rule isn't necessary and needs to go away.
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#18 rs18

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 12:02 PM

^ Hear, hear!  Couldn't have said it better myself.  A stupid rule made by people completely out of touch with your average golfer.

#19 petter7

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 01:34 PM

Stage,

I'll repeat, there is no problem with kids just wanting to get into the game
and play with dad. It doesn't matter what clubs they use, CC or not. In my
mind there is no debate there. Kids new to the game can use whatever
clubs they want.

It is about the how, The how many will probably always be kept in check
because of one thing, putting. The OEM's can't seem to invent a putter that
will make it easy to make hard breaking putts on 13 stimp greens. Hitting a
golf ball relatively straight and long is much easier with these clubs & balls.
The OEM's do everything they can to make that aspect of the game easier,
so, yes, it irks me too to see great golf courses rendered helpless with the
great players of the world using new technology to overwhelm courses from
tee to green.

I disagree that there have been hardly any changes with the professionals.
I have seen tour players not being able to spin the ball like they used to with
aggressive groves from bad lies with wedges on chips & pitches around the
green. I have seen many fliers going too far on numerous occasions on TV.
It may not seem much to the average player, but, it does make a difference.
Shots from the tee or fairway or from a decent lie will not be effected to any
great degree, but, I don't think that's the real issue when it comes to the new
groove rule.

I've know many people who have worked for the USGA over the years and
all of them have been extremely dedicated to their job and they all have had
an extraordinary appreciation for the game. You should take the time to get
to know some of them. They are quite accessible for discussions about golf
issues that are pertinent. I used to call them all the time, especially about the
rules of the game. Always willing to listen and help. Don't be mislead, they do
a great job.

Again, the USGA is not restricting the activities of the public golfer. Ams can
use any clubs they want and for many years to come. Yes, these clubs will
soon no longer be manufactured, but, it won't have much of an effect on the
average golfer in the long run. Clubs made for the last 20 years will not be
illegal to ams, so I just do not understand why so many people continue to
use that as an argument. The new groove rule is just a start. Next, the ball.
As I said, it will be very interesting to see what can be done about the ball.
It will be a lot more difficult than changing the grooves IMO.

#20 pickerjohn

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 02:53 PM

I have always supported the USGA and still pay my dues, but I certainly don't always agree with them, and reserve the right to not agree with them 100% of
the time and this started when they did nothing about the length of putters,
(although they do Drivers)and allow players at the highest level even, to attach them to any part of their body. I also see no need for the groove rule.
The USGA is however very much needed in our grand game and for the most part
is on spot.

Edited by pickerjohn, 19 September 2010 - 02:54 PM.


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#21 HeadonaStick

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:35 PM

View Postpickerjohn, on 19 September 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

I have always supported the USGA and still pay my dues, but I certainly don't always agree with them, and reserve the right to not agree with them 100% of
the time and this started when they did nothing about the length of putters,
(although they do Drivers)and allow players at the highest level even, to attach them to any part of their body. I also see no need for the groove rule.
The USGA is however very much needed in our grand game and for the most part
is on spot.
That is your choice; the USGA will not be getting my renewal this year or any other until they return to stewarding the game for all of us rather than making rules to control the play of less than 1% of the playing population. And they aren't even doing that well.

By the way, the rules effects all of us right now.  Every new club being released has the conforming grooves right now.  All clubs being produced, new or old releases, will have conforming grooves by the end of the year.

The stupidest argument in this whole thing is those who argue "protecting tradition."  Unless you are playing gutta percha balls with wooden shafted clubs, you are making a disingenuous argument at best.

The USGA is in charge only because we allow them to be in charge.  If they start messing with the ball, that may be in jeopardy.

#22 ibradley

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:54 PM

A friend of mine played in the one day Canadian Tour event with the reduced distance ball. He said the game was WAY more fun. He loved having to hit mid and long irons again. He said it was way more enjoyable than just hitting wedges to pins cut 8 feet from the edge of greens.

I don't understand why anyone on this board would be against rolling the ball back. How can anyone who loves like game not enjoy hitting a wider variety of shots?

#23 Bubbalongball

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:55 PM

I have had lots of Vokey wedges over the years as I have been a fan, Switched and tried the TM tp z wedges and not bad, I just got a set of Vokey C.C. wedges and played 6 rounds of golf in the last 4 days in a rydercup type format and put them to play even before taking them for a little practice session and I can honestly say that they play identical to any other wedges out there with the old groove rule, I am a 6 cap and unless your a tour player or close to it you will not notice a thing and if you think that maybe you hit a chip and it rolled out or ball didn't stop on a green it was probably the swing or all in your head. I just don't think that its a big deal at all and all a marketing scheme to help the OEM in a tough economy.

#24 HeadonaStick

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:01 PM

View Postibradley, on 19 September 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

A friend of mine played in the one day Canadian Tour event with the reduced distance ball. He said the game was WAY more fun. He loved having to hit mid and long irons again. He said it was way more enjoyable than just hitting wedges to pins cut 8 feet from the edge of greens.

I don't understand why anyone on this board would be against rolling the ball back. How can anyone who loves like game not enjoy hitting a wider variety of shots?
I don't understand why you would assume what you enjoy is what everyone enjoys.  

Besides, there are very few golfers who hit driver wedge on every hole.  Which is part of the point.

#25 MB_Viking

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:36 PM

I still have yet to hear a single word on how they would enforce this rule on the normal golfer past the year 2024.

There isn't a single course that I have seen that controls the booze or limits the clubs to 14/bag so how is the 17 year-old kid in the pro shop going to inspect every bag for "conforming" grooves?

It just isn't going to happen!  Normal golfers need not worry but anyone that competes needs new clubs.  That's what burns my butt!

Edited by MB_Viking, 19 September 2010 - 08:17 PM.


#26 HeadonaStick

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:42 PM

View PostMB_Viking, on 19 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I still have yet to hear a single word on how they would enforce this rule on the normal golfer past the year 2024.

There isn't a single course that I have seen that controls the booze or limits the clubs to 14/bag so how is the 17 year-old kid in the pro shop going to inpect every bag for "conforming" grooves?

It just isn't going to happen!  Normal golfers need not worry but anyone that competes needs new clubs.  That's what burns my butt!
The same way they enforce the rules now; you are either a cheater or you're not.  My group wouldn't allow illegal clubs to be played.  I suspect they aren't the only ones.  It's the same reason there aren't too many illegal clubs waiting to be purchased at Edwin Watts right now...

#27 MB_Viking

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:00 PM

View PostHeadonaStick, on 19 September 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

View PostMB_Viking, on 19 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I still have yet to hear a single word on how they would enforce this rule on the normal golfer past the year 2024.

There isn't a single course that I have seen that controls the booze or limits the clubs to 14/bag so how is the 17 year-old kid in the pro shop going to inspect every bag for "conforming" grooves?

It just isn't going to happen!  Normal golfers need not worry but anyone that competes needs new clubs.  That's what burns my butt!
The same way they enforce the rules now; you are either a cheater or you're not.  My group wouldn't allow illegal clubs to be played.  I suspect they aren't the only ones.  It's the same reason there aren't too many illegal clubs waiting to be purchased at Edwin Watts right now...

Then sir, I salute you and your playing partners!

Best not come up north then as we have a province or two full of "cheaters".

I just spent the weekend watching guys urinate in the rough, drinking cases of their own contraband beer and playing "winter rules" with unfavorable lies.  

Unless there will be police provided to enforce the rule, somehow I doubt that these jokers (and there are thousands of them) will care about conforming grooves.

Edited by MB_Viking, 19 September 2010 - 08:18 PM.


#28 '53 Precision

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:19 PM

View PostHeadonaStick, on 19 September 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

View PostMB_Viking, on 19 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I still have yet to hear a single word on how they would enforce this rule on the normal golfer past the year 2024.

There isn't a single course that I have seen that controls the booze or limits the clubs to 14/bag so how is the 17 year-old kid in the pro shop going to inpect every bag for "conforming" grooves?

It just isn't going to happen!  Normal golfers need not worry but anyone that competes needs new clubs.  That's what burns my butt!
The same way they enforce the rules now; you are either a cheater or you're not.  My group wouldn't allow illegal clubs to be played.  I suspect they aren't the only ones.  It's the same reason there aren't too many illegal clubs waiting to be purchased at Edwin Watts right now...

So, if a "cheater" showed up with say 1988 Hogan Apex Redlines, 1950's MacGregor ColoKroms, or 1960's Wilson Staffs, you would not allow them to be play a round with you? Further, unless the trade ins at Watts, et al, are all less than a year old, potentially illegal clubs are being sold by them today, just sayin'.

#29 Sean2

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:24 PM

I lost all respect for the USGA. Their focus is on 0.00001% of the world's golfers. They should be doing what they can to grow the game. The wedge rule, testing a ball that doesn't travel as far, and the like does not support that growth.

In addition, the average golfer still shoots around 100 and drives the ball approximately 200 yards. The answer? Making courses longer and more difficult. The result? More golfers quitting the game.

The USGA should be working with golf courses and course architects to see what can be done to make the game more fun and rewarding for the average golfer. Pete Dye said that golf is not fair and golf courses should not be fair. What an idiot.
Hey...be nice.

#30 jmplautz

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 07:35 PM

View PostFrom 19 September 2010 - 07:19 PM:

View PostHeadonaStick, on 19 September 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

View PostMB_Viking, on 19 September 2010 - 06:36 PM, said:

I still have yet to hear a single word on how they would enforce this rule on the normal golfer past the year 2024.

There isn't a single course that I have seen that controls the booze or limits the clubs to 14/bag so how is the 17 year-old kid in the pro shop going to inpect every bag for "conforming" grooves?

It just isn't going to happen!  Normal golfers need not worry but anyone that competes needs new clubs.  That's what burns my butt!
The same way they enforce the rules now; you are either a cheater or you're not.  My group wouldn't allow illegal clubs to be played.  I suspect they aren't the only ones.  It's the same reason there aren't too many illegal clubs waiting to be purchased at Edwin Watts right now...

So, if a "cheater" showed up with say 1988 Hogan Apex Redlines, 1950's MacGregor ColoKroms, or 1960's Wilson Staffs, you would not allow them to be play a round with you? Further, unless the trade ins at Watts, et al, are all less than a year old, potentially illegal clubs are being sold by them today, just sayin'.

My bet is that most of them would licking their chops to take a swing with any of those clubs.


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